More Ukrainian Events

[billvon]

It's the same old "assumptions" crap as opposed to my "assumptions" crap. None of this or the tabloids big headlines "Putin killed my son" are any more truthful. Is politics using the moment of tragedy for their own benefit. I am ashamed that these people who blame other nations before any investigation is done, actually control the countries. Just watch Obama's poker face of "truthfullness" while his NSA spies float from Germany's BND.

See, here's the problem with all your rants:

Obama makes faces on TV
Separatists kill hundreds of innocent people

And you really expect, that if you rant enough, people will decide that Obama is the bad guy here? Your separatists are digging their own graves - and dragging Putin along for the ride. We will see if he wises up and cuts ties,

 

[youreyes]

That's why the separatists are picking through the wreckage, because it's under government control?


A correspondent who had interviewed Bezler shortly beforehand corroborates that this is his voice.


You're defending the bad guys, straight up.

You're concept of "bad guys" as Ukraine rebels comes from extreme propaganda aimed at them all over West. Look at the facts, Ukraine government forces have so far killed hundreds and made 30,000 refugees in Russia. The not so peaceful Europe Mandan movement has totally disregarded the views of the Russian population within Ukraine, not just reducing the Russian language to nothing but also disregarding their political choices. Ukraine is known to be the most corrupt country for a reason, the votes there can be bought easily. This tragedy is an obvious provocation to make the rebels be recognized by the international community as "terrorists".

Moreover it is aimed to provoke Putin and Russian Duma to use military force against Ukraine. No wonder all over CNN and FOX you have non-stop propaganda of "When Russia decided to use military force in Ukraine, how many blah blah blah blah". Is all propaganda machine of the West. Putin is a great strategist, he will not be provoked into a war, neither will Russia.

 

[youreyes]

See, here's the problem with all your rants:

Obama makes faces on TV
Separatists kill hundreds of innocent people

And you really expect, that if you rant enough, people will decide that Obama is the bad guy here? Your separatists are digging their own graves - and dragging Putin along for the ride. We will see if he wises up and cuts ties,

So here's your problem billvion. Separatists have not killed hundreds of innocent people. Ukraine forces, backed up by USA, have killed hundreds of innocent people. They are doing so this very moment in Donetsk and Lugansk, this very instant. Get your facts straight. Stop watching CNN and FOX shit, look at unbiased sources of information. United Nations.

 

[youreyes]

Here's a hopeful sign:

"After days of obstruction, Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine permitted Dutch forensics experts on Monday to search the wreckage of the downed Malaysia Airlines jetliner destroyed by a surface-to-air missile, allowed bodies of the victims to be evacuated by train and agreed to give the plane’s flight recorder boxes to the Malaysia government."

We will see if they carry through with their promise, and whether this is a prelude to allowing international investigation agencies into the area.

They did not allow any prior "forensics experts" because it was Ukraine's forensics experts, who would happily hide all the shit they done. Unqualified military of Ukraine has already messed up in 2001, downing a Russian civilian plane not far from the region. Enough said.

 

[billvon]

So here's your problem billvion. Separatists have not killed hundreds of innocent people. Ukraine forces, backed up by USA, have killed hundreds of innocent people.

Igor Bezler, Russian separatist, in a phone call to Vasyl Mykolaiovych Geranin:

“We have just shot down a plane. That was miner’s group. It feel down outside Yenakievo. The plane broke into pieces in the air, close to Petropavlovskaya mine. There is the first two-hundreth dead, we have found the first two–hundredth. It’s a civilian.”

They are doing so this very moment in Donetsk and Lugansk, this very instant. Get your facts straight. Stop watching CNN and FOX shit, look at unbiased sources of information. United Nations.

========
TOREZ, Ukraine -- With Russian support, the U.N. Security Council voted unanimously Monday for an international investigation into the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine, as the bodies of victims finally began their journey to Amsterdam.

The resolution also calls for a halt to all military activities around the site and for Russian-backed separatists to allow international investigators complete access to the crash site.
========

Sounds like they are saying exactly what Obama is saying - telling the separatists to back the fuck off and let the experts do their jobs. We will see if it works.

 

[joepistole]

It's the same old "assumptions" crap as opposed to my "assumptions" crap. None of this or the tabloids big headlines "Putin killed my son" are any more truthful. Is politics using the moment of tragedy for their own benefit. I am ashamed that these people who blame other nations before any investigation is done, actually control the countries. Just watch Obama's poker face of "truthfullness" while his NSA spies float from Germany's BND.

Actually, they are not assumptions. The accrued evidence is enough to convict in an American court of law. You and Papa Putin just refuse to acknowledge the many unpleasant truths and hope the go away. But they are not going away, almost 300 innocent people have lost their lives I a war of Putin's making. Unfortunately for you and Papa Putin, they cannot prevent an investigation. They can thwart it, they can slow it, but they cannot prevent it. The wreckage and crash site investigation would just reaffirm what we already know - the radar tracking data, the Russian cell phone data, the satellite data, the photos and films, etc.

As for the rest of your post, it is reminiscent of Hitler's last days when huddled up in his bunker he knew fighting would break out between the allies when he heard the news of FDR's death. It didn't happen for Hitler, and it won't happen for Putin.

 

[youreyes]

do you honestly believe its more likely that a ukrainian force that could verify it was civilian aircraft intentionally blew a civilian airliner out of the sky than russian funded rebels who couldn't screwed up and shot it down by accident.

I do not question the likelihood of the event. I question the facts. And I am against anyone who makes loud assumptions without prior investigation.

 

[Aqueous Id]

However, they are actively impeding the investigation. That counts as "bad."

They were firing shots over the heads of the forensic investigators.

It's an admission of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt -- particularly since they were disturbing the site, hoping to destroy incriminating evidence.

Acting guilty is the clincher. And as the facts develop, this will lead to prosecutions. At that point youreyes will realize he's standing on the wrong side of history. Either that or go into a deeper state of denial. That's the general consensus about what's taking place among the Russian population right now. They simply can't believe Putin is this bad.

 

[billvon]

And I am against anyone who makes loud assumptions without prior investigation.

You just said "Ukraine forces, backed up by USA, have killed hundreds of innocent people." Are you now against yourself?

 

[youreyes]

Actually, they are not assumptions. The accrued evidence is enough to convict in an American court of law. You and Papa Putin just refuse to acknowledge the many unpleasant truths and hope the go away. But they are not going away, almost 300 innocent people have lost their lives I a war of Putin's making. Unfortunately for you and Papa Putin, they cannot prevent an investigation. They can thwart it, they can slow it, but they cannot prevent it. The wreckage and crash site investigation would just reaffirm what we already know - the radar tracking data, the Russian cell phone data, the satellite data, etc.

Don't be rediculous. It is in Russia's interest to do this investigation as fast as possible with international translucent investigation. The whole reason why the West started this blaming game is to push Putin to make a wrong move and move the military into Ukraine, which he will not do, because he is a smart man =)

 

[youreyes]

You just said "Ukraine forces, backed up by USA, have killed hundreds of innocent people." Are you now against yourself?

I am not talking here about the plane crash. I am talking about the Ukraine forces advancing on Donetsk and Lugansk. Sorry for not being straightforward.

 

[youreyes]

They were firing shots over the heads of the forensic investigators.

It's an admission of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt -- particularly since they were disturbing the site, hoping to destroy incriminating evidence.

Acting guilty is the clincher. And as the facts develop, this will lead to prosecutions. At that point youreyes will realize he's standing on the wrong side of history. Either that or go into a deeper state of denial. That's the general consensus about what's taking place among the Russian population right now. They simply can't believe Putin is this bad.

I am standing at the right side of history, my friend.

Putin has proven himself in Syria to prevent a war by using "destruction of chemical weapons for destruction" as a means of preventing air bombing of Syria
Putin has proven himself in Crimea by making it part of Russia he has prevented the same rebellion that is going on right now in East Ukraine.
Putin has recovered the country from control of West and put the oil back into hands of Russian economy.

Like I said this investigation should be carried out by IATA and third-party not interested in changing or bending the facts to their benefit.

 

[joepistole]

I am standing at the right side of history, my friend.

Putin has proven himself in Syria to prevent a war by using "destruction of chemical weapons for destruction" as a means of preventing air bombing of Syria
Putin has proven himself in Crimea by making it part of Russia he has prevented the same rebellion that is going on right now in East Ukraine.
Putin has recovered the country from control of West and put the oil back into hands of Russian economy.

Like I said this investigation should be carried out by IATA and third-party not interested in changing or bending the facts to their benefit.

LOL, are you on Papa Putin's payroll?

Putin had to be pushed into working with the US to convince Syria to surrender its chemical weapons to the US for subsequent destruction. In Crimea he proved he was a thug by stealing it under threat of arms as he is attempting to do with Donetsk and other Eastern Ukrainian regions. Putin did restore stability to Russia when he first assumed power, but at a great cost. Putin has taken Russia into fascism and that is ultimately a very unstable form of government. Putin began his military adventurism when the Russian economy began to fall fallow and now he has exacerbated his problem by poisoning the Russian economy. It's now a matter of how much poison he wants the Russian economy to consume. Putin has a lot of work to do to restore trust. And trust is crucial for economic development.

 

[youreyes]

LOL, are you on Papa Putin's payroll?

I am a Russian and I represent 146,000,000 people and growing. Few years ago the West has preached of demographic collapse of population in Russia. Few years past we are strong and we have nothing to fear from the world.

 

[joepistole]

I am a Russian and I represent 146,000,000 people and growing. Few years ago the West has preached of demographic collapse of population in Russia. Few years past we are strong and we have nothing to fear from the world.

Ok, are you on Papa Putin's payroll?

 

[Aqueous Id]

You're concept of "bad guys" as Ukraine rebels comes from extreme propaganda aimed at them all over West.

Nope. It comes from realizing how demonic a person like Bezler really is. And Putin, in arming them with an SA-11.

Look at the facts,

Ok. I'm looking at an SA-11 in the hands of a crazed maniac.

Ukraine government forces have so far killed hundreds and made 30,000 refugees in Russia.

True or false, that's irrelevant to the issue of Putin arming them with an SA-11, and their immediate use of it to shoot down a commercial airliner. It's an act of war against the rest of the world.

The not so peaceful Europe Mandan movement has totally disregarded the views of the Russian population within Ukraine, not just reducing the Russian language to nothing but also disregarding their political choices.

That's no excuse to shoot down a civilian airplane.

Ukraine is known to be the most corrupt country for a reason, the votes there can be bought easily. This tragedy is an obvious provocation to make the rebels be recognized by the international community as "terrorists".

It's a war crime, not a tragedy. And despite your empathy for the separatists, your defense of this atrocity is unjustified by any legitimate grievances you feel they have.

Moreover it is aimed to provoke Putin and Russian Duma to use military force against Ukraine.

Putin is the aggressor. He gave them a SA-11. Russians need to snap out of their denial of this fact.

No wonder all over CNN and FOX you have non-stop propaganda of "When Russia decided to use military force in Ukraine, how many blah blah blah blah". Is all propaganda machine of the West.

FOX news is the propaganda machine of the American conservative movement. But they are irrelevant. There are international media feeding us international eyewitnesses to the crime. The preponderance of the evidence will convict the main perpetrators. Hopefully Putin will have to face the World Court.

Putin is a great strategist, he will not be provoked into a war, neither will Russia.

Putin is a monster who has revived his own Cold War, and distracted the Russian public from their concerns about internal corruption with a new false sense of nationalistic pride.

 

[Aqueous Id]

I am standing at the right side of history, my friend.

That claim has been permanently recorded here and will prove to be false as the investigation proceeds. Thus far the evidence is against you. As I said, Russia has neither admitted nor denied that it detected a missile launch. This alone incriminates Putin.

Like I said this investigation should be carried out by IATA and third-party not interested in changing or bending the facts to their benefit.

And the way to do that is to shoot over the heads of investigators who attempted to secure the site?

 

[Billy T]

I am a Russian and I represent 146,000,000 people and growing. ...

Nonsense and Russia knows it is the only major country with a shrinking population. That is why for many years the Russian government gave a new house to the parents of the first baby born in the New Year. - Are they still doing that? Part of Russia's static or shrinking population is it like many others, Russia's population is aging, and not many want to immigrate there. (US & UK populations would be shrining too if not for growth by immigration - People want to come to the US & UK.)
However, the wide spread use of abortion is a major contributing factor too. They are essentially free, upon demand, and no shame is attached to that procedure.

Country .... Projected 2030 Population .... 2010 Population. .... % change
World ........8,321,380,000 ........................6,895,889,000 ..........+20.7%
(I will not bother to space out the remaining data.) See it at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth

India (demographics) 1,523,482,000 1,224,614,000 +24.4%
China (demographics) 1,393,076,000 1,341,335,000 +3.9%
United States (demographics) 361,680,000 310,384,000 +16.5%
Indonesia (demographics) 279,659,000 239,871,000 +16.6%
Nigeria (demographics) 257,815,000 158,423,000 +62.7%
Pakistan (demographics) 234,432,000 173,593,000 +35.0%
Brazil (demographics) 220,492,000 194,946,000 +13.1%
Bangladesh (demographics) 181,863,000 148,692,000 +22.3%
Russia (demographics) 136,429,000 142,958,000 −4.6%
Mexico (demographics) 135,398,000 113,423,011 +19.4%

 

[youreyes]

Nonsense and Russia knows it is the only major country with a shrinking population. That is why for many years the Russian government gave a new house to the parents of the first baby born in the New Year. - Are they still doing that? Part of Russia's static or shrinking population is it like many others is aging, and not many want to immigrate there. (US & UK populations would be shrining too if not for growth by immigration - People want to come to the US & UK.)
However, the wide spread use of abortion is a major contributing factor too. They are essentially free and no shame is attached to that procedure.

Country .... Projected 2030 Population .... 2010 Population. .... % change
....
Russia (demographics) 136,429,000 142,958,000 −4.6%
...

That's what I am talking about, all those projections have been made with sole purpose of finding the most negative proposed scenarios of demographical situation. However the West got ****ed once again and the Russian live births has exceeded deaths. According to new predictions from the latest data, Russian population in year 2030 will exceed 163,000,000 people with 1.3% growth rate at year 2030.

At year 2012: population growth rate is 0.4%, in prior year that growth rate was 0.3%, that constitutes to increase in growth rate by 0.1% every two years. At

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markado...-isnt-shrinking-its-growing-very-very-slowly/

Russia’s population is clearly not headed in a predictable, downward direction.

So F*** you Latvia, F*** you Estonia, F*** you Lithuania, F*** you ENGLAND, F*** you USA, and GO F*** yourself Australia with your "predictions".

 

[Billy T]

... At year 2012: population growth rate is 0.4%, in prior year that growth rate was 0.3%, that constitutes to increase in growth rate by 0.1% every two years. At: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markado...-isnt-shrinking-its-growing-very-very-slowly/...

Yes there has recently been a very tiny increase due entirely to immigration, not even equal to the population of annexed Crimea. Let's quote from YOUR source:

" It’s likely, though far from certain, that Russia’s population will shrink between now and 2020 or 2030. But it’s a simple matter of fact that at the moment Russia’s population is not rapidly shrinking, but slowly growing. It’s true that this tentative growth is entirely driven by immigration, but that is perfectly normal when you take a look at developed Western countries. Since 1971 the United States, which has much more robust demographics than virtually any other advanced country, has had one year in which its fertility rate was high enough for natural population growth: all the rest of the, substantial, growth in the US’ population has been driven exclusively by immigration.''

The nature of Putin's Russia is becoming "crystal clear" to people outside of Russia (and to many protesting, even at risk of jail, inside Russia) so don't expect the tiny influx of immigration of the last few years to continue. For Russia to not resume its population shrinking, it will need to send its army out some where and force people to come to Russia or make abortion illegal. Perhaps Russia can make a deal with Italy - I.e. let Italy send all the North Africans trying to slip into Southern Europe illegally to Russia?

BTW - You did not answer my question. Is the Russian government still giving a new house to the parents of the first born baby every New Year?

I wonder why you did not give the title of the Forbes article you linked to. It was: "Russia's Population Isn't Shrinking (It's Growing Very, Very Slowly)"

Forbes found this brief unusual reversal of the shrinking trend news worthy. If Russia were growing evey year, even if at only 0.5% of the world's growth rate as most other nations at least do*, there would have been no reason for the article to be published. Forbes writes articles ONLY about exceptional, not routine, events that surprise people.

* Germany and Japan are shrinking too but not as fast as Russia is when brief variations are averaged out by comparing populations at decade or more intervals.