More Ukrainian Events

[Billy T]

shades of K.A.L 007?
Was Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 intentionally diverted to a place where 2 Ukrainian planes were recently shot down for the publicity?...

They say in Hollywood that these is no such thing as "bad publicity" but that would not be true in this case. Malaysia Airlines will soon cease to exist unless the government goes deeply into debt. MH370 expense alone and fact that few are buying tickets to ride on it if some other choice is available will see to their bankruptcy.

 

[joepistole]

Yes a few weeks ago, when those who elected the prior president (East Ukrainians and Crimeans) could not vote.
FALSE - Thousands fled east for their lives - some like the president elected by ALL the Ukrainian people, not stopping until safe in Russia. Some who fled even testified before the Russian Duma - in public hearings as to how they were abused and feared for their lives. Widely shown in the Eastern block TV and briefly on CNN international that I get in Brazil.

The election occured 2 months ago. The discussion was about the "coupe". And at that time no one had fled any thing with the exception of the indited president. People have subsequently fled areas where fighting has occurred. That isn't unusual.

And you think Russian TV is credible? You think testimony before the Duma is honest? But then you always fall for the conspiracy stories. Russia is a state where disagreement with the state is unhealthy. Putin's opponents have a nasty habit of turning up dead or imprisoned and stripped of their possesions.

 

[joepistole]

It is now being reported Russian irregulars are removing portions of the aircraft and inspectors have still not been allowed meaningful access to the crash site. And it appears reports of looting the bodies is true.

The US now reports the Buk system used has been sent back to Mother Russia. My guess, Putin is covering his tracks. I would not be surprised if Putin has executed the crew. Dead men tell no tales.

 

[CptBork]

I guess you would also find fault with the CIA supplying Ben Laden with nearly 1000 shoulder fired stinger missles...

There is no evidence that Bin Laden was amongst the Mujaheddin receiving US assistance, nor has Al Qaeda or any credible CIA official ever made such a claim. There were several players and suppliers in the Soviet-Afghan war, the US and Bin Laden were only two of the many parties involved.

...- that is how he drove the Russian back over "friendship bridge" they built for the invasion of Afghanistan. (The Russian had to use helicopters to move their troops in that very rugged mountainous terrain. That was the ONLY way to not be ambushed by Ben Laden's freedom fighters (now terrorists, of course) who knew the mountains passes well.)

As with so many amateur assessments of historical wars and their outcomes, your outlook is terribly simplistic and short-sighted. The Soviets killed 3,000,000 Afghans while taking only 50,000 casualties in return, and Afghanistan already had a substantially smaller population from the start. Stinger missiles proved to be a pain in the ass in denying the Soviets an easy means of overrunning and controlling the countryside, but lack of willingness to face attrition is what forced them to ultimately withdraw. If Stalin had been managing that war, 90% of Afghanistan's population would have either ended up in gulags or deported to Pakistan, millions of Russians would have been forcefully transplanted to the region to replace them, and Putin would be stationing troops and missiles there to this very day, regardless of the numbers of Russian casualties involved.

Seriously, I've had enough with all the Disneyfied crap depicting the Mujaheddin as invincible Stinger-toting Rambo swashbucklers, mowing down hordes of incompetent Soviet conscripts baffled to be facing an enemy wielding comparable weapons and technologies. That's the same sort of ignorant mollycoddled thinking which compares the US or Israel losing 10 soldiers in a battle to the days of Stalingrad when Germany lost 500,000.

Ben Laden was the CIA's best man back in the cold war, just as the Ukrainian sub-division of the USSR was their loyal ally in the cold war. - times change. Japan is no longer the "yellow peril" but the US's ally.

Again, all based on conspiracy theory inuendo. The folks the US worked with are the same people it's working with this time as well, different ethnic stock altogether. The only support the US gives to the likes of Al Qaeda is by welcoming Pakistan and Saudi Arabia into the international community instead of putting a fence around them.

Almost ALL the east European members of the USSR were supplied with Buk missile* - after all they were the buffer states protecting the Russian "home land" from eminent NATO invasions as NATO placed long range intermediate ICBMs in an almost unbroken ring, from Turkey** to the Baltic sea on the west of Russia.

* Certainly the Ukraine was - their army shot down by accident a high altitude soviet passenger jet in 2001, killing all 78 on board.

Yes, we know Ukraine has AA missiles. That doesn't change the fact that all the evidence so far points to Russian drunks being responsible for firing the missile and that Putin himself is now actively involved in the coverup. Ukraine isn't the one acting like it has something serious to hide, which the Russians have been doing since the very first day Putin stole his office.

**They only came out of Turkey as a secrete part of the deal that stopped the "Cuban missile crisis" from escalating into nuclear WWIII - If the Russian ships had not turned back, the US would have invaded the next day. US did not know then that tactile short range nuclear missile were already operational - the invasion would have been a greater defeat for the US than the "Bay o Pigs" invasion was. Moscow and Washington DC would have been smoldering radio-active ashes after the US invasion force was burnt to a nuclear crisp.

That's not the version I learned from my history texts. The US had ample evidence and suspicions that Soviet warheads were already prepped to fire, which is one reason they chose to hold back and let cooler heads prevail. A US attack would have involved massive carpet and possibly nuclear bombing of Cuba in a bid to eliminate as many missiles as possible, followed by a nuclear exchange with the USSR if anything got through and hit US soil. Your attempts to make the US look weak involve some pretty absurd comparisons- how many US forces were involved in the Bay of Pigs, as compared to the Battle of Midway?

Countries these days don't feel like slaughtering millions and paying all the diplomatic and economic consequences just to show they can conquer backward wasteland shitholes like Afghanistan or Cuba, yet folks like yourself seem to hold these ludicruous notions that it's because they fear a catastrophe on the scale of Stalingrad and the collapse of their armies, followed by the coronation of President Castro amidst the charred ruins of Washington.

 

[CptBork]

KIEV, Ukraine — The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications…a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said that his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists.

Amid growing international outrage about the handling of the crash site, Ukrainian officials also accused the pro-Russian rebels of confiscating victims’ bodies and plane parts to obscure their involvement in the downing of the passenger jet and the deaths of all 298 people aboard.​

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

 

[cosmictraveler]

Seems we have overlooked the real problem which is that Russia INVADED a sovereign nation by sending in regular army troops with no insignias on their fatigues to show who they were. That is an act of war in any nation and should be delt with harshly but no other country is helping the Ukrainians with this problem other than sanctions which Russia only laughs at.

 

[p-brane]

Ukraine…

The US has as strong pro-Israel history for decades under presidents of both parties. Because Israel promised a "speedy and complete investigation" of any grievous "collateral damage" like the three boys killed playing soccer on the beach, yesterday (or day before?) the US has no harsh words for Israel. Likewise, the US had no condemnation a few years ago when Israel's artillery practice killed a family picnicking on the beach. By Israel own admission, the IDF does routinely practice targeting empty Gaza fields. Israel shortly after the family was killed on the beach held a news conference (which I watched on CNN) that presenting a chart (that gave the hit locations of all but one of the 23 shells fired at empty fields into Gaza). One missile had accidently excessive powder loaded in the chamber (or was aimed wrong) and over flew the intended target. I. e. the dead family was "collateral damage" of the on & off low level war, in which Israel has enjoyed an average "kill ratio" of greater than 25 to 1. In the current episode of the Israel/Palestine war, at present that ratio is >300 to 1. ~300 civilians killed by Israel is from Obama's POV, just unfortunate "collateral damage" as Israel tries to defend itself with the long standing high kill ratio policy...Israel is a "freedom fighter" defending democracy / self determination (except of those in lands it occupies)

… Ukraine

Gee Billy, why not just initiate a thread on the only topic that ever really interests you?

 

[Billy T]

My post is long. Be sure to see the three photos in it and text discussing them.

KIEV, Ukraine — The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications…a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said that his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists.

Amid growing international outrage about the handling of the crash site, Ukrainian officials also accused the pro-Russian rebels of confiscating victims’ bodies and plane parts to obscure their involvement in the downing of the passenger jet and the deaths of all 298 people aboard.​

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

Yes that is the assertion of two contributors (Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung) to the Washington Post - with no identification of any US source sighted for their opinion. Here is the start of your link's text, which ORIGINATED in the Ukraine, not the US:

"KIEV, Ukraine — The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists."

What I am disputing is: that there is any evidence that Russia supplied high-altitude capable Buk missiles to the separatists, instead of the USSR supplying Buks to their ally, the Ukraine (and most other East European allied buffer states helping protect the USSR from quick, direct invasion, of the USSR by NATO) at least 15 years ago. The USSR of course trained, mainly the Russian speaking members of the Ukrainian Army back then in how to use the Buks, but perhaps not as well as they should have as in 2001 those USSR trained teams shot down a USSR passenger plane, presumably by accident, flying at high altitude as passenger planes always do for greater fuel efficiency, killing all 78 on board.

I agree it is certainly possible that Russia did supply the Buk used to shoot down MH17 only about a month, but that is very very improbable as unless Putin has decided to invade and annex part of Eastern Ukraine, any Buks supplied to the rebels will fall into the anti-Russian Ukrainian government's hands before the end of 2014. The Kiev government is beginning to re capture land and cities in East Ukraine already. Without direct and open Russian army assistance the future of the rebles and their self proclaimed autonomous state, which not even Russia recognizes, is doomed. Why would Putin give Buks to the rebels when they will soon fall into the hand of the anti-Russian government in Kiev? He is not an idiot.

Now lets consider the consequences of the alternative choice Putin now has: Invade and Annex part of East Ukraine (To show why it is very very unlikely to be his choice.) That choice would probably not result in a counter invasion by NATO forces, as Ukraine is not a member state of NATO. I. e. NATO has that obligation to protect ONLY member states. Instead very painful to Russia, instead of token, sanctions would be applied by an outraged Western alliance, even though they would also cause some economic pain to the EU.

What would probably be the Russian and Chinese response?
Dollar rich China would aid Russia and with the BRICS a new economic union* with real teeth would form to destroy the PetroDollar system. Because of the success of fracking for oil in the US, the Saudies now sell much more oil to China's rapidly growing demand than the US, and in not distant future, the US will not need to import any oil. The Saudis would then have no reason to support the PetroDollar any more. China is now their main supplier of weapons that they could use against Shiite Iran or Jewish Israel, which routinely destroys much of the infrastructure the Saudis have financed for the Palestinians, not to mention killing more than 400 Palestinians in the last week.

For example, because intermediate range ICBMs could be used against Israel, the US has refused to supply them to the Saudis; but China was happy to sell them many mobile ones many years ago, and air defense systems. Because it is mobile, easily hidden in garages, etc. it would be hard for the IDF to destroy, even if Israel's attacking planes can avoid the air defense systems the Saudis have. Below is photo of one (#29 with missile 20, I guess)

Also note the Saudi oil ministry held talks with China at high level both in Riyadh and Beijing in 2014.
And its likely they are considering a PetroYuan replacement for the petrodollar.
For decades, Americans used the fact the dollar was the reserve currency to import products and services worth much more than the value they produced for export. (Paid with printed paper for most of US's imports.) That can continue ONLY so long as the dollar is the world's reserve currency, but there are several reasons to think that will end soon.
For example:
(1) http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/57717 indicates that soon US may not import any oil from Saudi Arabia - why would they continue to force all to sell oil only for dollars??? - I.e. Saudi will end the Petrodollar deal then - when US is not buying oil and most goes to China.
(2) http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-09/houston-fills-with-crude-oil-that-can-t-be-shipped-out.html There is already such a big oil surplus in "Petrolopus" (big quickly expanding field in Texas) that there is no empty storage tank and not enough ships to export it or pipeline capacity to move it (refined) to other parts of the US.
(3) China's needs for oil are rapidly growing. China already is the main buyer of Saudi oil. Soon it is to the advantage of both to see the "petrodollar" replaced by the PetroYuan.

China has long standing policy of Non-interference in the internal policies of other governments. Has no problem with Saudi laws against women driving cars or not allowed to go out alone without close blood relative escort. Woman who does that can be gang rapped, and then punished by 30 whip lashes for provoking the men, etc. while men are not guilty of anything - just normal healthy male behavior. In keeping with their policy, China would not be critical of that either.

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, right, shakes hands with Saudi Crown Prince Salman Bin Abdulaziz at Ziguangge Pavilion in the Zhongnanhai leaders’ compound in Beijing on March14,2014

Minister of Petroleum Ali Al-Naimi presides over the meeting in Riyadh.

It does not take a "rocket scientist" to guess they are already planning to replace the PetroDollar with the PetroYuan.

Why not?
The PetroDollar was created under Nixon when US bought most of the Saudi oil and supplied it with most of its weapon. Now it is China doing both those things.

* The BRICS have already taken the first steps: Within the last month they have established an alternative lending agency to the US controlled IMF, with initial capitalization of 100 billion dollars (in value, not actual dollars which are every year now less used to settle trade imbalances) China was selected to be the location of the head quarters. Read more on it, released today, here: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2014-07/16/content_17799967.htm
Also for informative over view of the Chinese President's currently in progress visit to many countries in eight days (15 to 23 July 14) and discussions / plans See: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2014xibricssummit/ For example Chinese technology and know-how will lead three nation (Brazil, Peru & China) effort to build rail line linking the Atlantic to the Pacific via Brazil and Peru.

 

[sculptor]

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity

kinda gives a slant on credibility

2 words

agent provocateur

 

[joepistole]

My post is long. Be sure to see the three photos in it and text discussing them.Yes that is the assertion of two contributors (Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung) to the Washington Post - with no identification of any US source sighted for their opinion. Here is the start of your link's text, which ORIGINATED in the Ukraine, not the US:

"KIEV, Ukraine — My post is long. Be sure to see the three photos in it and text discussing them.Yes that is the assertion of two contributors (Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung) to the Washington Post - with no identification of any US source sighted for their opinion. Here is the start of your link's text, which ORIGINATED in the Ukraine, not the US:

"KIEV, Ukraine — The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists."

“General Philip Breedlove, the commander of the U.S. European Command, said that Moscow has been supplying Ukrainian separatists with anti-aircraft weaponry, and has held training sessions along the eastern Ukrainian border, teaching rebels how to operate the systems.

Direct supply of the BUK from Moscow to rebels would be a major escalation in the ongoing conflict. However, on June 29, Russia's official news agency, ITAR-TASS, reported that pro-Russian separatists took a BUK system under their control. The report does not specify whether or not this was theft from the Russian or Ukrainian militaries, only that the rebels had seized control of the weapons system. An AP report, dated yesterday, noted that, “A launcher similar to the BUK missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by pro-Russia rebels, earlier Thursday.” http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...egedly-downed-malaysian-airlines-buk-launcher

General Breedlove made those comments 3 weeks ago, before the Malaysian flight was shot down by Russian irregular forces inside Ukraine. Mother Russia reported irregular forces had possession of a Buk Weapons System on June 29, 2014, nearly a month ago.

What I am disputing is: that there is any evidence that Russia supplied high-altitude capable Buk missiles to the separatists, instead of the USSR supplying Buks to their ally, the Ukraine (and most other East European allied buffer states helping protect the USSR from quick, direct invasion, of the USSR by NATO) at least 15 years ago. The USSR of course trained, mainly the Russian speaking members of the Ukrainian Army back then in how to use the Buks, but perhaps not as well as they should have as in 2001 those USSR trained teams shot down a USSR passenger plane, presumably by accident, flying at high altitude as passenger planes always do for greater fuel efficiency, killing all 78 on board.

Well of course you think there is no evidence because you discount and deny all the evidence as you have done continue to do on a whole range of issues and subjects. Yeah, there is no doubt the Buk Missile System originated from Russia. But that really isn’t the, is it?

And when the Ukrainian military accidentally shot down a Siberia Air airliner, the airliner was entering Ukrainian airspace during military exercises and unlike Mother Russia when she has intentionally shot down civilian airliners, the Ukraine admitted their culpability and paid compensation.

I agree it is certainly possible that Russia did supply the Buk used to shoot down MH17 only about a month, but that is very very improbable as unless Putin has decided to invade and annex part of Eastern Ukraine, any Buks supplied to the rebels will fall into the anti-Russian Ukrainian government's hands before the end of 2014. The Kiev government is beginning to re capture land and cities in East Ukraine already. Without direct and open Russian army assistance the future of the rebles and their self proclaimed autonomous state, which not even Russia recognizes, is doomed. Why would Putin give Buks to the rebels when they will soon fall into the hand of the anti-Russian government in Kiev? He is not an idiot.

Where have you been? He has annexed Crimea which borders Russia and is indeed Eastern Ukraine. These are mobile units. They can be easily transported. Reports, validated by the US, and there are videos showing the Buk systems being moved back into Russia. So this, like your theory that Ukrainians need Buks to shoot down nonexistent rebel (Russian irregular) aircraft, is ludicrous. If Putin supplied his irregulars operating in Ukraine with an air force, he would have much more difficulty getting people to believe that his irregular forces are just your average Joe fighting oppression. It’s difficult enough trying to explain how that average Joe earning only a few thousand dollars a year went down to the local hardware store and purchased a fully equipped and supplied army.

Now lets consider the consequences of the alternative choice Putin now has: Invade and Annex part of East Ukraine (To show why it is very very unlikely to be his choice.) That choice would probably not result in a counter invasion by NATO forces, as Ukraine is not a member state of NATO. I. e. NATO has that obligation to protect ONLY member states. Instead very painful to Russia, instead of token, sanctions would be applied by an outraged Western alliance, even though they would also cause some economic pain to the EU.

Putin is an erratic sort of guy. World leaders like Angela Merkel, German Chancellor, has said on numerous occasions after speaking with Putin, that Putin is detached from reality. So who knows with certitude what Putin will or will not do?

Putin has backed down once before. But he has unleased nationalist forces with Russia who want to invade and annex all of Ukraine along with all the former Soviet client states. Putin is playing a very dangerous game. He may not be able to control those forces. It certainly appears he is having difficulty even now controlling what he has begun. I expect, the will fall back again but only for a time. But I don’t expect he will ever cease his efforts to destabilize his neighbors. And Putin can never give up power, no corrupt dictator can, else he might fall victim to a firing squad or a jail cell.

What would probably be the Russian and Chinese response?
Dollar rich China would aid Russia and with the BRICS a new economic union* with real teeth would form to destroy the PetroDollar system. Because of the success of fracking for oil in the US, the Saudies now sell much more oil to China's rapidly growing demand than the US, and in not distant future, the US will not need to import any oil. The Saudis would then have no reason to support the PetroDollar any more. China is now their main supplier of weapons that they could use against Shiite Iran or Jewish Israel, which routinely destroys much of the infrastructure the Saudis have financed for the Palestinians, not to mention killing more than 400 Palestinians in the last week.

For example, because intermediate range ICBMs could be used against Israel, the US has refused to supply them to the Saudis; but China was happy to sell them many mobile ones many years ago, and air defense systems. Because it is mobile, easily hidden in garages, etc. it would be hard for the IDF to destroy, even if Israel's attacking planes can avoid the air defense systems the Saudis have. Below is photo of one (#29 with missile 20, I guess)
Also note the Saudi oil ministry held talks with China at high level both in Riyadh and Beijing in 2014.
And its likely they are considering a PetroYuan replacement for the petrodollar.
For decades, Americans used the fact the dollar was the reserve currency to import products and services worth much more than the value they produced for export. (Paid with printed paper for most of US's imports.) That can continue ONLY so long as the dollar is the world's reserve currency, but there are several reasons to think that will end soon.
For example:
(1) http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/57717 indicates that soon US may not import any oil from Saudi Arabia - why would they continue to force all to sell oil only for dollars??? - I.e. Saudi will end the Petrodollar deal then - when US is not buying oil and most goes to China.
(2) http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-09/houston-fills-with-crude-oil-that-can-t-be-shipped-out.html There is already such a big oil surplus in "Petrolopus" (big quickly expanding field in Texas) that there is no empty storage tank and not enough ships to export it or pipeline capacity to move it (refined) to other parts of the US.
(3) China's needs for oil are rapidly growing. China already is the main buyer of Saudi oil. Soon it is to the advantage of both to see the "petrodollar" replaced by the PetroYuan.

China has long standing policy of Non-interference in the internal policies of other governments. Has no problem with Saudi laws against women driving cars or not allowed to go out alone without close blood relative escort. Woman who does that can be gang rapped, and then punished by 30 whip lashes for provoking the men, etc. while men are not guilty of anything - just normal healthy male behavior. In keeping with their policy, China would not be critical of that either. Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, right, shakes hands with Saudi Crown Prince Salman Bin Abdulaziz at Ziguangge Pavilion in the Zhongnanhai leaders’ compound in Beijing on March14,2014
Minister of Petroleum Ali Al-Naimi presides over the meeting in Riyadh.

It does not take a "rocket scientist" to guess they are already planning to replace the PetroDollar with the PetroYuan.

Why not?
The PetroDollar was created under Nixon when US bought most of the Saudi oil and supplied it with most of its weapon. Now it is China doing both those things.

* The BRICS have already taken the first steps: Within the last month they have established an alternative lending agency to the US controlled IMF, with initial capitalization of 100 billion dollars (in value, not actual dollars which are every year now less used to settle trade imbalances) China was selected to be the location of the head quarters. Read more on it, released today, here: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2014-07/16/content_17799967.htm
Also for informative over view of the Chinese President's currently in progress visit to many countries in eight days (15 to 23 July 14) and discussions / plans See: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2014xibricssummit/ For example Chinese technology and know-how will lead three nation (Brazil, Peru & China) effort to build rail line linking the Atlantic to the Pacific via Brazil and Peru. in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists."

What I am disputing is: that there is any evidence that Russia supplied high-altitude capable Buk missiles to the separatists, instead of the USSR supplying Buks to their ally, the Ukraine (and most other East European allied buffer states helping protect the USSR from quick, direct invasion, of the USSR by NATO) at least 15 years ago. The USSR of course trained, mainly the Russian speaking members of the Ukrainian Army back then in how to use the Buks, but perhaps not as well as they should have as in 2001 those USSR trained teams shot down a USSR passenger plane, presumably by accident, flying at high altitude as passenger planes always do for greater fuel efficiency, killing all 78 on board.

I agree it is certainly possible that Russia did supply the Buk used to shoot down MH17 only about a month, but that is very very improbable as unless Putin has decided to invade and annex part of Eastern Ukraine, any Buks supplied to the rebels will fall into the anti-Russian Ukrainian government's hands before the end of 2014. The Kiev government is beginning to re capture land and cities in East Ukraine already. Without direct and open Russian army assistance the future of the rebles and their self proclaimed autonomous state, which not even Russia recognizes, is doomed. Why would Putin give Buks to the rebels when they will soon fall into the hand of the anti-Russian government in Kiev? He is not an idiot.

Now lets consider the consequences of the alternative choice Putin now has: Invade and Annex part of East Ukraine (To show why it is very very unlikely to be his choice.) That choice would probably not result in a counter invasion by NATO forces, as Ukraine is not a member state of NATO. I. e. NATO has that obligation to protect ONLY member states. Instead very painful to Russia, instead of token, sanctions would be applied by an outraged Western alliance, even though they would also cause some economic pain to the EU.

What would probably be the Russian and Chinese response?
Dollar rich China would aid Russia and with the BRICS a new economic union* with real teeth would form to destroy the PetroDollar system. Because of the success of fracking for oil in the US, the Saudies now sell much more oil to China's rapidly growing demand than the US, and in not distant future, the US will not need to import any oil. The Saudis would then have no reason to support the PetroDollar any more. China is now their main supplier of weapons that they could use against Shiite Iran or Jewish Israel, which routinely destroys much of the infrastructure the Saudis have financed for the Palestinians, not to mention killing more than 400 Palestinians in the last week.

For example, because intermediate range ICBMs could be used against Israel, the US has refused to supply them to the Saudis; but China was happy to sell them many mobile ones many years ago, and air defense systems. Because it is mobile, easily hidden in garages, etc. it would be hard for the IDF to destroy, even if Israel's attacking planes can avoid the air defense systems the Saudis have. Below is photo of one (#29 with missile 20, I guess)
Also note the Saudi oil ministry held talks with China at high level both in Riyadh and Beijing in 2014.And its likely they are considering a PetroYuan replacement for the petrodollar.
For decades, Americans used the fact the dollar was the reserve currency to import products and services worth much more than the value they produced for export. (Paid with printed paper for most of US's imports.) That can continue ONLY so long as the dollar is the world's reserve currency, but there are several reasons to think that will end soon.
For example:
(1) http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/57717 indicates that soon US may not import any oil from Saudi Arabia - why would they continue to force all to sell oil only for dollars??? - I.e. Saudi will end the Petrodollar deal then - when US is not buying oil and most goes to China.
(2) http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-09/houston-fills-with-crude-oil-that-can-t-be-shipped-out.html There is already such a big oil surplus in "Petrolopus" (big quickly expanding field in Texas) that there is no empty storage tank and not enough ships to export it or pipeline capacity to move it (refined) to other parts of the US.
(3) China's needs for oil are rapidly growing. China already is the main buyer of Saudi oil. Soon it is to the advantage of both to see the "petrodollar" replaced by the PetroYuan.

China has long standing policy of Non-interference in the internal policies of other governments. Has no problem with Saudi laws against women driving cars or not allowed to go out alone without close blood relative escort. Woman who does that can be gang rapped, and then punished by 30 whip lashes for provoking the men, etc. while men are not guilty of anything - just normal healthy male behavior. In keeping with their policy, China would not be critical of that either. Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, right, shakes hands with Saudi Crown Prince Salman Bin Abdulaziz at Ziguangge Pavilion in the Zhongnanhai leaders’ compound in Beijing on March14,2014
Minister of Petroleum Ali Al-Naimi presides over the meeting in Riyadh.

It does not take a "rocket scientist" to guess they are already planning to replace the PetroDollar with the PetroYuan.

Why not?
The PetroDollar was created under Nixon when US bought most of the Saudi oil and supplied it with most of its weapon. Now it is China doing both those things.

* The BRICS have already taken the first steps: Within the last month they have established an alternative lending agency to the US controlled IMF, with initial capitalization of 100 billion dollars (in value, not actual dollars which are every year now less used to settle trade imbalances) China was selected to be the location of the head quarters. Read more on it, released today, here: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2014-07/16/content_17799967.htm
Also for informative over view of the Chinese President's currently in progress visit to many countries in eight days (15 to 23 July 14) and discussions / plans See: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2014xibricssummit/ For example Chinese technology and know-how will lead three nation (Brazil, Peru & China) effort to build rail line linking the Atlantic to the Pacific via Brazil and Peru.

This isn’t relevant to the thread topic. So again Billy T. if you want to discuss these things please start a new thread in a more appropriate forum.

 

[Billy T]

To Joepistoe:You have stuck your comments inside a quote of me. For example your comment: "your theory that Ukrainians need Buks to shoot down nonexistent rebel (Russian irregular) aircraft, is ludicrous." is inside your quote of me.

Yes that is ludicrous, but not my comment or POV. I have very clearly stated that the USSR, not Russia, gave high altitude capable AA missiles to most, if not all, of its Eastern block allies more than 15 years ago. Their purpose for doing that was so NATO planes headed to the USSR with nuclear bombs could be shot down before they even reached the USSR's borders.

Again my point is that their is no evidence that the Buk missile that downed MH17 was recently supplied to the rebels by Russian. Putin doing that would not serve Russia's interest, as unless Russian army invades East Ukraine, because any such Buks now given to the rebels will, before the end of 2014, be possessed by the anti-Russian government in Kiev. It is re capturing land and cities the rebels once held. Without much more assistence from Russia than presently given to the Rebels, their self proclaimed autonomous state, which not even Russia recognizes, is doomed before the end of 2014.

In my posts I discussed, very much on this thread's topic, why it also is to no one's advantage for Russia to more actively aid the Rebels. Speculating that significant increase in the Russian aid to the rebels, via Russian troops invading East Ukraine, would surely result in very painful (not token, as now) sanctions on Russia, etc. and also about the Russian (and Chinese) reactions to strong sanctions. - Suggesting that reaction would end the PetroDollar system an become very painful for the US also

 

[joepistole]

To Joepistoe:You have stuck your comments inside a quote of me. For example your comment: "your theory that Ukrainians need Buks to shoot down nonexistent rebel (Russian irregular) aircraft, is ludicrous." is inside your quote of me.

Yes that is ludicrous, but not my comment or POV. I have very clearly stated that the USSR, not Russia, gave high altitude capable AA missiles to most, if not all, of its Eastern block allies more than 15 years ago. Their purpose for doing that was so NATO planes headed to the USSR with nuclear bombs could be shot down before they even reached the USSR's borders.

Again my point is that their is no evidence that the Buk missile that downed MH17 was recently supplied to the rebels by Russian. Putin doing that would not serve Russia's interest, as unless Russian army invades East Ukraine, because any such Buks now given to the rebels will, before the end of 2014, be possessed by the anti-Russian government in Kiev. It is re capturing land and cities the rebels once held. Without much more assistence from Russia than presently given to the Rebels, their self proclaimed autonomous state, which not even Russia recognizes, is doomed before the end of 2014.

In my posts I discussed, very much on this thread's topic, why it also is to no one's advantage for Russia to more actively aid the Rebels. Speculating that significant increase in the Russian aid to the rebels, via Russian troops invading East Ukraine, would surely result in very painful (not token, as now) sanctions on Russia, etc. and also about the Russian (and Chinese) reactions to strong sanctions. - Suggesting that reaction would end the PetroDollar system an become very painful for the US also

And I repeat myself, your assertions are ludicrous. You dont let little things like evidence, reason and facts get in your way. You just ignor them as you always have done. And your assertions about the dollar are equally ludicrous. You have predicted the collapse of the dollar in October of this year. Time is ticking on that one. And you mde that prediction long before these events.

Unfortunately for you the dollar is strong and there is nothing any of the BRIC countries can do about that very simple and basic fact. Further your previous post went way beyond what you just expressed. If you want a disscussion on the international financial system, start one. But it doesn't belong here.

 

[youreyes]

And I repeat myself, your assertions are ludicrous. You dont let little things like evidence, reason and facts get in your way. You just ignor them as you always have done. And your assertions about the dollar are equally ludicrous. You have predicted the collapse of the dollar in October of this year. Time is ticking on that one. And you mde that prediction long before these events.

Unfortunately for you the dollar is strong and there is nothing any of the BRIC countries can do about that very simple and basic fact. Further your previous post went way beyond what you just expressed. If you want a disscussion on the international financial system, start one. But it doesn't belong here.

China can collapse the dollar. We just need a similar provocation on part of US to let the operation begin.

 

[joepistole]

China can collapse the dollar. We just need a similar provocation on part of US to let the operation begin.

LOL, keep dreaming. But the smart folks, the educated folks know better. I just read an article discussing how fearful Russian oligarchs are and how disgusted they are with Papa Putin.

You think China can damage the dollar, but China knows better. You don't have to look far or long to see where money flows durring fearful periods. It isn't China. It's to the most stable country, the country with the biggest and most powerful military. That ain't Mother Russia and it certainlty isn't Mother China either. Russia can certainly become a Chinese vassel state. It may soon have few options.

 

[youreyes]

LOL, keep dreaming. But the smart folks, the educated folks know better. I just read an article discussing how fearful Russian oligarchs are and how disgusted they are with Papa Putin.

You think China can damage the dollar, but China knows better. You don't have to look far or long to see where money flows durring fearful periods. It isn't China. It's to the most stable country, the country with the biggest and most powerful military. That ain't Mother Russia and it certainlty isn't Mother China either. Russia can certainly become a Chinese vassel state. It may soon have few options.

Sweet dreams in Honolulu while Chinese battleships practice missile launches nearby.

Which Oligarchs are disgusted? The dead suicidal Berezovsky? Or the Ex-Yukos CEO?

 

[joepistole]

Sweet dreams in Honolulu while Chinese battleships practice missile launches nearby.

Which Oligarchs are disgusted? The dead suicidal Berezovsky? Or the Ex-Yukos CEO?

LOL, no problem, China doesn't have a deep water fleet any more than Mother Russia. It has no battleships.

Well you see, those oligarchs are not suicidal. That's why they don't want to be identified. They know what happens to people who disagree with Putin. Radioactive poisons magically appear in their drinks and food.

 

[youreyes]

Well you see, those oligarchs are not suicidal. That's why they don't want to be identified. They know what happens to people who disagree with Putin. Radioactive poisons magically appear in their drinks and food.

sure magic fairies in candy pop land agree.

 

[joepistole]

sure magic fairies in candy pop land agree.

LOL and how does that relate to Putin's aggression and the shooting down of a civilian airliner or the cover-up we are now wittnessing? What does that have to do with the looted corpses?

 

[youreyes]

LOL and how does that relate to Putin's aggression and the shooting down of a civilian airliner or the cover-up we are now wittnessing? What does that have to do with the looted corpses?

so far the aggression has been from US backed Ukraine illigitimate government killing hundreds.

Cover-up so far has been from the West with nice huge headlines in Australia "Putin killed my son" and likewise in UK. Pushing own politics on a tragedy is a disgrace, you and the people that use such tactics should rot for.

Awaiting IACA, to actually come and investigate the site before the Ukrainian illegitimate government gets to it first.

 

[Bells]

so far the aggression has been from US backed Ukraine illigitimate government killing hundreds.

Cover-up so far has been from the West with nice huge headlines in Australia "Putin killed my son" and likewise in UK. Pushing own politics on a tragedy is a disgrace, you and the people that use such tactics should rot for.

Awaiting IACA, to actually come and investigate the site before the Ukrainian illegitimate government gets to it first.

Russian backed drunken rebels have already plundered the site, stolen money and credit cards and cameras and denied access to international investigators. They have stomped all over it, cut parts of it, carted away other parts, allowed the locals to walk all over it, they have moved things, removed bodies and treated the bodies as though they were sacks of rubbish and now they have taken them and are refusing to hand them over. Putin has blood on his hands for not only arming these murderers, but for now protecting and defending them. If he cared, he'd have demanded they stand aside and let us retrieve our dead and let us investigate this crime. And you whine about a cover up? They are openly wrecking that crime scene and they are refusing to allow international investigators and observers to access the sites and the bodies. Perhaps these drunken Russian murderers should stand aside and let the experts do their job instead of treating it like a local playground and photo opportunity and shopping ground as they steal from the dead.