Man's intention

[Cottontop3000]

Water,

You're not making a lot of sense. If our belief in God is only up to God, then how can Christians say that a non-Christian is going to burn in hell for eternity if they don't accept or believe in Jesus as their personal savior. By your rationale, it's God's fault or plan that some of us should burn in hell for eternity. Why would a loving God want that? Or is this God not so loving in the first place? Do you see what I am saying? Did you just make a mistake in your entry?

CT3000

 

[SnakeLord]

My attitude? Please tell me you're kidding. You know, I was just kidding around with the name calling, I thought that was obvious, but then again, I suppose nothing is obvious to an atheist.

I'm sorry, what exactly is your problem? You use vulgur language to which I respond "charming", and now you're claiming it was all a big joke and that i'm uptight? Lol.. But honestly how can I tell? Ok admittedly I do spend quite a lot of time talking to other clearly delusional teenage girls, but I personally didn't catch on to the humour of the word "dickhead" - because it just isn't funny.

I swear humour has changed.. Back in the day "dickhead" wasn't considered one of the coolest 'jokes' around. How times have changed.

I wonder if the excuse: "it was just a joke" will pass with god. I wonder if your petty insults for no good reason whatsoever will go down well with the big cheese. Whether you'll actually get inside the golden city with the lambs and the religious nuts of time gone past, or whether you'll be stuck outside the city walls with the seriously evil people - such as fortune tellers... oh and dogs for some reason, (although I've no idea what evil dogs have done to the world).

However, while you're still alive and out of a straight jacket, kindly work on your humour. It is after all supposed to be funny.. It just don't work otherwise.

There, there, I'm so sorry, you delicate little flower...

Delicate? Not at all. I just don't see the humour in some silly 'wacko job' trollop giving me an insult all because she was incapable of reading my post correctly. But hey I forgive you. You are completely devoid of sanity after all.

And I don't care what someone else has done. I don't care what you may speculate that I will do in the future. I am being completely honest in sharing my thoughts and experiences, AND THAT IS NEVER WORTHLESS.

A) You read my post wrong

B) C'mon, everything you say is worthless. I remember the statements made so adamantly that god was giving you a rockstar and only 42 days to go etc. I remember how you said anyone who didn't believe you was gonna be shown to be wrong and so on.. and what happened? After all that and all you did was gasbag for nothing. Pages and pages of wasted kilobytes.. Then another few pages of excuses. You're a certified nut.

Maybe you should check your own attitude Snake. Telling people that their experience, thoughts, and ideas and what they have to say about them is worthless isn't very nice.

Sure, I don't have the world's greatest attitude. Of course I don't have a holy invisible head talking dood to guide me into whats right.. What's your excuse? Oh yes, it was humour..

P.S I didn't say it was worthless, read my post again, and again, and again, and again.. until the day your brain decides to turn itself on.

I'm bloody glad I'm an atheist. The only thing in common I have seen with religious folk is that upon finding god their IQ drops below that of a sea cucumber.

It's downright rude, insensitive, and holier than thou arrogant.

Nice one. You misread my post, start flinging insults, blame it on some weird version of christian humour, and then try passing the blame onto me? Sickening.

What's wrong with you, have you up and joined a church or something?

Not until I purchase a shotgun.

 

[water]

Medicine Woman,

M*W: When one makes a decision about 'faith,' God has NOTHING to do with it!

Well, then you neither need nor want God anyway. No wonder you end up believing He doesn't exist.

Otherwise, you are a liar about the existence of free will.
/.../
M*W: Then there is no free will. I'm not surprised.

I said:

"A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work."

A person can want to believe in God, and this is in the domain of free will.
Whether the person will be granted to actually believe in God, depends on God.

To believe in God is not an act of your free will.
To want to believe in God is an act of your free will.

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

You're not making a lot of sense. If our belief in God is only up to God, then how can Christians say that a non-Christian is going to burn in hell for eternity if they don't accept or believe in Jesus as their personal savior.

First of all, *Christians* do not say that. Some people who call themselves Christians may say so, but they are making deals while excluding God.
Only God can see inside a person's heart, and only God knows what a person truly believes, and God will decide upon that.

By your rationale, it's God's fault or plan that some of us should burn in hell for eternity.

No, I don't believe it is God's plan to burn a person in hell, and also make such a future clear to said person while the person is still alive.
It could be that God will grant you faith some time later in your life. But just because you don't have it now, does not mean that you are already condemned.

Why would a loving God want that? Or is this God not so loving in the first place?

God is not Oprah, this much ought to be clear.

And most of all, it is not as if heaven is our right.
Heaven is a privilege that we cannot earn. God grants it to whomever He wills.

But many people believe that they have a right to heaven, or that they can earn it. This means they are trying to take the decision about who goes to heaven away from God; they are trying to make God's decisions for Him. How presumptuous.

Do you see what I am saying? Did you just make a mistake in your entry?

I see what you're saying, and I have not made a "mistake" in my entry.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Water,

I'm only trying to make my decisions based on what I know. If God wants to help me, great. I'll listen. But he hasn't exactly been banging the door down.

On the other hand, like I've said in other threads, I was a Christian for about 30 years (Atheist now for about 5), and I seem to remember that the only contact I ever had with God was through other people and what they told me he said. I can't remember him ever actually filling me with his holy spirit. In fact, if there is one thing an atheist like me would like more than anything else, it's a little holy spirit in my stocking at Christmas. You know, something I can take out and play with.

CT3000

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Water,

I'm only trying to make my decisions based on what I know. If God wants to help me, great. I'll listen. But he hasn't exactly been banging the door down.

On the other hand, like I've said in other threads, I was a Christian for about 30 years (Atheist now for about 5), and I seem to remember that the only contact I ever had with God was through other people and what they told me he said. I can't remember him ever actually filling me with his holy spirit. In fact, if there is one thing an atheist like me would like more than anything else, it's a little holy spirit in my stocking at Christmas.You know, something I can take out and play with.
*************

M*W: I have no use for the god you believe in. I don't believe in false doctrines.

 

[Cris]

Water,

The essence of some good questions.

Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be?

It is not possible to answer the question as framed since it presumes a gods exists. What I hope you meant to ask is why did I stop trying to communicate with an alleged god that might be trying to reach and guide me? Is that OK?

The answer is based on many factors and at various levels of complexity which I will describe in a moment.

Was that way too slow, to unsatisfying for you?

An overly simplistic suggestion and does not come remotely close to my case.

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.

This is a very Christian-like statement that I would expect from someone who is pro-Christian and I think you said you weren’t a Christian. So I’m a little confused as to your motives here.

However, my belief in the Christian god was not a conscious effort. Throughout my entire school life from the age of four I was exposed to daily Christian worship ceremonies and religious education. I was fully conditioned to be a Christian and accepted the existence of a god without question, until of course I matured a little.

A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's.

That is Christian doctrine and an unsupported assertion.

Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

Not relevant to my case.

So why did I eventually reject the Christian god concept?

1. Extensive discussions with other Christians.
2. Bible study.
3. An entire school life containing frequent religious education.
4. Private study of Christian origins.
5. Logic.
6. Credibility.
7. Einstein.
8. An understanding of cosmology.
9. An understanding of evolution.
10. An understanding of neuroscience.
11. An understanding of probabilities.
12. My genetically derived propensity to be analytical.
13. And any lingering minor doubts were finally fully dispelled by debating at sciforums.

Put that altogether and there are several major conclusions –

There is no evidence to support that gods could or might exist.
There is no evidence that a Jesus character ever existed.
There is no evidence that such things as souls could or might exist.

Hope that helps a little.
Cris

 

[Lori_7]

Snakelord,

Wow, what the fuck? That was scary.

Good God, don't even respond....I'm afraid of what you might say.

 

[fahrenheit 451]

I'm bloody glad I'm an atheist. The only thing in common I have seen with religious folk is that upon finding god their IQ drops below that of a sea cucumber.

excuse me, but I take issue with that statement, that is an insult to us sea cucumbers.
you could of said amoebas, their to thick to even know there being insulted.

 

[Lori_7]

excuse me, but I take issue with that statement, that is an insult to us sea cucumbers.
you could of said amoebas, their to thick to even know there being insulted.

It's not a sea cucumber or an amoeba, it's an octopus, thank you very much.

 

[killslay]

snakelord, chill out haha. cant let them get to you, its what they want so they can turn around and say "a christian would of forgiven me, we're so much better"

 

[Lori_7]

Killslay,

Is that what I said?

Snakelord,

Wow, what the fuck? That was scary.

Good God, don't even respond....I'm afraid of what you might say.

Nope.

 

[killslay]

sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a little.
and besides, its what happens in my experience as soon as i stopped going to church the whole lot of them looked down there noses at me

 

[(Q)]

Water claims:

A person can want to believe in God, and this is in the domain of free will.
Whether the person will be granted to actually believe in God, depends on God.

By far and away, one of the best arguments in favor of falsifying religion that I've read in a while.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Killslay,

Ditto.

CT3000

 

[Lori_7]

sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a little.
and besides, its what happens in my experience as soon as i stopped going to church the whole lot of them looked down there noses at me

Well I won't do that to you. I'll tell you don't go to church, be the church! And I'd tell the whole lot of them too. It's not about belonging to an organization or a denomination, and it's not something that you can fake. So kudos to you for being honest.

 

[killslay]

Well I won't do that to you. I'll tell you don't go to church, be the church! And I'd tell the whole lot of them too. It's not about belonging to an organization or a denomination, and it's not something that you can fake. So kudos to you for being honest.

was there not some psalm that was discovered that said that there was no reason for churches? (think the film stigmata mentions it)
of coures the catholic church quickly announced it to be blasphemous

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

I'm only trying to make my decisions based on what I know. If God wants to help me, great. I'll listen. But he hasn't exactly been banging the door down.

Maybe God is doing it as we speak, you just don't recognize it as you have been conditioned into viewing only particular acts or events ot be acts of God.

On the other hand, like I've said in other threads, I was a Christian for about 30 years (Atheist now for about 5), and I seem to remember that the only contact I ever had with God was through other people and what they told me he said. I can't remember him ever actually filling me with his holy spirit. In fact, if there is one thing an atheist like me would like more than anything else, it's a little holy spirit in my stocking at Christmas. You know, something I can take out and play with.

Well, what would you like? A toy or something real and powerful?

How come you are posting here, wondering about God?


* * *


Cris,

Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be?

It is not possible to answer the question as framed since it presumes a gods exists.

Not at all. My position is that of leaving it all up to God, making no assumptions either of His existence, nor of His non-existence. My position is "God, if you are there, let me know in a way I can understand".

What I hope you meant to ask is why did I stop trying to communicate with an alleged god that might be trying to reach and guide me? Is that OK?

No, this is not what I meant. What you (and so many others were doing) failed because you have approached God with an idea of Him that you got from experience with other people. See below.

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.

This is a very Christian-like statement that I would expect from someone who is pro-Christian and I think you said you weren’t a Christian. So I’m a little confused as to your motives here.

I am just striving to be fair and consistent.

However, my belief in the Christian god was not a conscious effort. Throughout my entire school life from the age of four I was exposed to daily Christian worship ceremonies and religious education. I was fully conditioned to be a Christian and accepted the existence of a god without question, until of course I matured a little.

In which case, you were most likely believing in an illusionary god, formed by the conditioning you were exposed to. You likely had no idea of God though.

A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's.

That is Christian doctrine and an unsupported assertion.

Why do you think this is not a valid position?
Do you think you have to be master over your belief in God?

And my stance is not in tune with certain mainstream Christian theologies. There are many people who think their faith in God is their own effort.

Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

Not relevant to my case.

Why is this not relevant to your case?
This may be a crucial answer for you.

So why did I eventually reject the Christian god concept?

1. Extensive discussions with other Christians.
2. Bible study.
3. An entire school life containing frequent religious education.
4. Private study of Christian origins.
5. Logic.
6. Credibility.
7. Einstein.
8. An understanding of cosmology.
9. An understanding of evolution.
10. An understanding of neuroscience.
11. An understanding of probabilities.
12. My genetically derived propensity to be analytical.
13. And any lingering minor doubts were finally fully dispelled by debating at sciforums.

Put that altogether and there are several major conclusions –

There is no evidence to support that gods could or might exist.
There is no evidence that a Jesus character ever existed.
There is no evidence that such things as souls could or might exist.

Well, all this only tells me that you thoroughly know something about the illusionary god you used to believe in. This doesn't mean that God doesn't exist though.

The way I see, you have some basics to understand that believing in God is not genuine if it has been conditioned into you by other people.

I think that now, you are slowly becoming ready to actually get to know God.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Water,

It's as good a place as any, and better than some, to "wonder" about good ole God.

CT3000

P.S. Still don't hear any God (powerful or otherwise) whispering in my ear. Also, if I wanted to put my complete faith in a God, I'd sure like to be able to see or hear him before I make the commitment nowadays. I see no reason to trust what Peter, Paul and Mary (not the group) might or might not have actually said.

 

[water]

Water claims:

A person can want to believe in God, and this is in the domain of free will.
Whether the person will be granted to actually believe in God, depends on God.

By far and away, one of the best arguments in favor of falsifying religion that I've read in a while.

It is not falsifying religion as a whole. It is falsifying only a certain approach to God as some religions suggest it -- that one that believing in God is all a person's own doing.