Man's intention

[Lori_7]

And if this doesn't happen?
What is your answer then? That said person just hasn't wanted it enough, or that "things take time"?

Well, you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God. Many times, well for me anyway, it took being humbled quite a bit, which was very uncomfortable...still is, but getting much easier. I'm not judging you....I don't know where your heart is at, but God does. And I'm a great one to talk to regarding "the waiting". The waiting is the hardest part. But God doesn't make us wait to torture us, but to teach us...to make sure we are ready to receive what we've asked for....a step at a time....it doesn't happen overnight...it's a process. But step by step, he will lead you through perfectly and in your best interest, and the best interest of all. He teaches you through life experience. It's never obvious what He's doing because you can't anticipate Him, His means, and His plan for your salvation and redemption....He's way too over the top. But when it's all said and done, you'll be grateful and joyous....yea, I said joyous.

 

[Yorda]

M*W: Very good, Yorda! You explain this concept well. What we 'call' god is not the white-bearded old guy sitting on a cloud with lightning bolts to strike us down.
***********
Yorda: But no one sees god like that today. They see him as an invisible all-knowing person whatever... people still want to worship a concrete "person", some sort of figure... (before, they worshipped physical "images" like the sun) later, people will not honor gods anymore, not the same way at least. We can clearly see that all those gods are natural forces and things like that... so, they are not really false. Natural forces exist. And there also is a "thing" that created everything.
***********
M*W: Although I don't believe in a supernatural kind of god, I do believe in the higher self.
***********
Yorda: I believe with certainty, that this higher self is what religions talk about when they refer to God. This may sound ridiculous, but when we understand more about ourselves, we also begin to understand this.
***********
M*W: Forgiveness of others is a xian concept. Forgiving ourselves brings us to higher enlightenment.
***********
Yorda: Many atheists say you can't forgive yourself fully and you have to live with what you've done.

 

[Yorda]

Imaginative but this doesn’t indicate whether any of that is real.

What is real and what is not is just a matter of choice or belief. We can never say with absolute certainty, what is real..

When something has been done it cannot be undone and one must learn to live with that.

Why would it have to be undone? Nothing is no one's fault really.

Hitler wasn't evil. If you were born under the same circumstances, in the same body, you would have done the same thing. However, the things that happened through Hitler were evil (to most people)

I don’t see why a spiritual aspect has to enter the scene.

I didn't say anything about anything 'spiritual', although I don't believe in material reality.

 

[(Q)]

What is real and what is not is just a matter of choice or belief. We can never say with absolute certainty, what is real..

The statement should read : "What is real and what is not is just a matter of choice or belief. I can never say with absolute certainty, what is real.."

 

[killslay]

I would say "see for yourself".

I could witness all day long about what God has done for me and with me, about my rebirth, and about my miracle, and all day long people like you would call me a delusional liar. You would call me that without wanting to know me, or wanting to see evidence, or hear corroboration, or anything else. Face it, you just don't want to know. So don't blame it on organized religion or me or anyone else who is born again, or on God Himself.

Why would you ever want to take someone's word for it anyway? That's not prudent. And hence, God makes it so that you have to find out for yourself, and you have to find out from Him, and only because you sincerely want to know.

i think a lot of people will not want to listen to what christians have to say because finally there is a lot of people actually thinking for themselves for once. i have nothing against anyone who chose the path they have chosen of there own accord but i really dont like those who were "brought up" to be christian, catholics are especially bad for this the phrase "i was a catholic since before i was born" reigns true. Being forced into going to church myself and constantly getting the story of jesus force fed to me at an early age i've gotten quite sick of the majority of christians who look down on any other religion other than there own. i can't help but stereotype them because in my experience most of them are the same.
however i do like the satanic approach of indoctrination (that is the church established by Anton LaVey, not the b-movie animal sacrificing satanist), the satanic church actually tells its existing members not to invite everybody and try and not convert its quite happy the way it is. Satanism has a lot of really good points of view, i dissagree with a couple of key elements which means i can't really be a satanist (namely magick, and the rule against self-destruction which means no drugs or drink)

 

[Medicine*Woman]

M*W: Very good, Yorda! You explain this concept well. What we 'call' god is not the white-bearded old guy sitting on a cloud with lightning bolts to strike us down.
*************
Yorda: But no one sees god like that today. They see him as an invisible all-knowing person whatever... people still want to worship a concrete "person", some sort of figure... (before, they worshipped physical "images" like the sun) later, people will not honor gods anymore, not the same way at least. We can clearly see that all those gods are natural forces and things like that... so, they are not really false. Natural forces exist. And there also is a "thing" that created everything.
*************
M*W: I feel certain that many people still see their God that way, as a "person," etc..
*************
Yorda: I believe with certainty, that this higher self is what religions talk about when they refer to God. This may sound ridiculous, but when we understand more about ourselves, we also begin to understand this.
*************
M*W: I tend to agree with this concept. If there is a God, then God would simply be our higher selves.
*************
Yorda: Many atheists say you can't forgive yourself fully and you have to live with what you've done.
*************
M*W: There is nothing that would prevent an atheist from forgiving himself. Even though one must live with themselves, forgiveness of oneself is always an option. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

 

[Lori_7]

i think a lot of people will not want to listen to what christians have to say because finally there is a lot of people actually thinking for themselves for once. i have nothing against anyone who chose the path they have chosen of there own accord but i really dont like those who were "brought up" to be christian, catholics are especially bad for this the phrase "i was a catholic since before i was born" reigns true. Being forced into going to church myself and constantly getting the story of jesus force fed to me at an early age i've gotten quite sick of the majority of christians who look down on any other religion other than there own. i can't help but stereotype them because in my experience most of them are the same.

I've had the same experience myself which turned me off to organized religion at a young age, and still to this day. It's not cool. It's a false witness to Christ is what it is. Jesus never force fed anyone religion. He had a thing or two to explain to the pharisees about being born again though.

 

[SnakeLord]

Yo Lori.. Hows that rock star god said you'd get together with well over a year ago?

 

[Lori_7]

Yo Lori.. Hows that rock star god said you'd get together with well over a year ago?

I would imagine he's at his best...they're in the studio.

 

[SnakeLord]

So the god promise has still not come true? I mean c'mon.. without me trawling through year old posts you did say god, (jesus), had told you that you would be together with this rock star, (who you supposedly communicate with through dream visions and shit), valentines day 2004.

Nearly a year and a half has past and as such I must ask you the same question I asked back then: Are you willing to accept the possibility that it was nothing but a personal delusion? That no deity came down and told you anything, but that your brain, (for whatever reason), made it all up?

 

[water]

Well, you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God.
/.../
But step by step, he will lead you through perfectly and in your best interest, and the best interest of all. He teaches you through life experience. It's never obvious what He's doing because you can't anticipate Him, His means, and His plan for your salvation and redemption....He's way too over the top. But when it's all said and done, you'll be grateful and joyous....yea, I said joyous.

This is something only someone who already believes can say "you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God.", and esp. elsewhere, where you speak about how I must truly desire to know Jesus. Those are things only someone who already believes can say. Not an outsider.

 

[water]

Cris,

We are not to be convinced by humans that God exists, anyway.

Says who? Christians right? It’s a dishonest tactic to divert attention from the fact they cannot independently support their claims.

No. If people believe in God because of other people, then they don't believe in God, but in other people. That's the problem. So you should not rely on people to tell you what *you* should think of God. Others can offer possible paths to God, but this is not to say they will work for you.

It has nothing to do with being unable to independently support their claims.

“ If convinced of God's existence by humans, then it is not God's existence you have been convinced of, but of a person's reason to believe in God. ”

And if their reason is based on independent proof then the conviction would be accurate.

“ A person's reason to believe in God and belief in God are two separate things. ”

One follows from the other.
Not sure what point you were trying to make.

My point is that one does *not* follow from the other. Usually, they *appear* together, yes, but this doesn't mean that there is indeed a causal relation between the reason one has to believe in something, and the said thing.

We believe in electrons, quarks, black holes etc. because there is a reasonable, believable explanation for their existence. We do not know of their existence directly. We only have believable reasons to believe in their existence -- because the explanations seems valid, not because we knew the thing was there, or not.

This is why to us, it is essentially circumstantial whether they truly exist or not. The scientific method is bound to be ultimately unreliable exactly for the reason that it can never say what is there and what is not, it can only give (temporarily) more or less believable reasons that said thing exists or not.

Belief in God avoids this human hurdle by leaving it up to God to grant a person direct knowledge of Him, or not.

Of course, few are willing to let God decide who will believe in Him, and who won't.

 

[Lori_7]

So the god promise has still not come true? I mean c'mon.. without me trawling through year old posts you did say god, (jesus), had told you that you would be together with this rock star, (who you supposedly communicate with through dream visions and shit), valentines day 2004.

Nearly a year and a half has past and as such I must ask you the same question I asked back then: Are you willing to accept the possibility that it was nothing but a personal delusion? That no deity came down and told you anything, but that your brain, (for whatever reason), made it all up?

It was Halloween, and I did not say that God told me that rock star and I would be together then. God has never said when. I am the one who speculated that it would be on Halloween and was wrong. Um, I'm wrong alot...lol...so I try not to speculate when it comes to Him, and just let Him do His thing in my life, and stand in awe and amazement when He does. *shrug* I should know better than to try to anticipate Him...I'm learning...on Halloween last year, I learned the hard way. I'm not gonna lie....it's been really hard...all this waiting. I got pretty depressed for a while. Not because I could ever think as you suggest, and chalk the whole experience up as some delusion, but just because I wasn't getting what I wanted fast enough.

 

[Lori_7]

This is something only someone who already believes can say "you have to sincerely want to know the truth about God.", and esp. elsewhere, where you speak about how I must truly desire to know Jesus. Those are things only someone who already believes can say. Not an outsider.

You can say "I don't know, but I sincerely want to know. God, if you're real, then show me...prove it to me." The initial truth about God is His existence.

 

[Yorda]

M*W: There is nothing that would prevent an atheist from forgiving himself. Even though one must live with themselves, forgiveness of oneself is always an option. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
*************
Yorda: If a person who believes in God, asks for his forgiveness, I think this person is unconsciously asking forgiveness of himself. Jesus said "remember that your father knows, what your needs are before you ask him" and of course, we know what our needs are.

In the beginning of the Bible, there was some guy... he killed his brother, and started wondering: "did someone see me?" he felt guilty and then he heard god's voice: "where is your brother?" I think this clearly indicates that god is a sort of higher self, and his voice is the conscience.

I can't imagine Jesus and all those prophets telling people to forgive themselves... they wouldn't understand anythin... people need to imagine a concrete entity- a powerful entity.

 

[spidergoat]

The compilation of the bible was a political move by the Roman leadership to redirect and subvert the previously decentralized movement of Christianity. Christianity was already a perversion from what Jesus taught into a cult of the supernatural. Even still, there are things to learn from it, moral lessons, and whisperings of a more profound truth albeit diluted with oceans of pure bullshit.

 

[Cris]

Lori,

I would say "see for yourself".

But I’ve been there, tried it, there is nothing there.

I could witness all day long about what God has done for me and with me, about my rebirth, and about my miracle, and all day long people like you would call me a delusional liar.

No not a liar, that implies a deliberate attempt to deceive. And the issue of delusion is that there is nothing independent of your claims that shows that what you claim is not a delusion, something that is overwhelmingly more credible than your claims. It seems certain that you are convinced that your claims are true, my point is that I can see no way to separate them from pure imaginative fantasy.

You would call me that without wanting to know me, or wanting to see evidence, or hear corroboration, or anything else.

Not quite. I’ve read most of your posts in this forum where you attempt to explain further yet I do not see that you have made a case outside of your imagination. But that is not the primary reason that I appear so dismissive: What you suggest is really childish and naive and not worth serious consideration.

Face it, you just don't want to know.

Know what? It is only you that imagine there is something to know. I have yet to see anything to indicate there is anything. It is not a matter of desire.

So don't blame it on organized religion or me or anyone else who is born again, or on God Himself.

Blame? I am not the one making fantastic claims that lack credibility.

Why would you ever want to take someone's word for it anyway? That's not prudent.

I don’t, that’s the role of evidence, that you cannot provide. And if I were to join your fantasy then that again would not constitute evidence.

And hence, God makes it so that you have to find out for yourself, and you have to find out from Him,

There’s that Christian dishonesty again. The practical upshot is that one must abandon reason and lose oneself in an emotional fantasy quagmire.

and only because you sincerely want to know.

More Christian dishonesty. In reality truth tends to assert itself on people whether they want to know or not. Your assertion really does support the delusional position.

 

[Lori_7]

Cris,

Been there, tried what exactly? It's law...like gravity and e=mc2....it works, and it's not negotiable. Seek and you find, knock and the door opens. And as the law states, the initiation is up to you. So do you want Him to provide you with proof of His existence or not? If He exists, do you want to know Him or not? If you do, then He will.

And I understand that what has happened to me and what it means sounds completely over the top. It is. I also swear to you that it is real and that there will be evidence provided....it's just not time yet. You know, this hasn't been easy for me, and I really don't appreciate your sentiment. "Not a liar...", but then turn around and call me a liar. People who know me know that I'm not a liar, and that I'm relatively sane, given some OCD syptoms, and despite my circumstance. So a more fantastic claim that lacks credibility may be that I, or anyone for that matter, have an imagination capable of making some shit like this up! This is serious...this is Revelation prophecy come to life. If you read Revelation ch 10, John is instructed to seal up what the seven thunders spoke, and not write it down. Then, at the end of the chapter, and after he has eaten the little scroll, he is told that he must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings. When? Now. That's my man...and that's exactly what he'll do.

 

[Cris]

Lori,

Been there, tried what exactly?

Imagined that a god existed when I was a Christian.

It's law...like gravity and e=mc2....it works, and it's not negotiable.

It might seem like that to you but it is still only a fantasy.

Seek and you find, knock and the door opens.

Nope – didn’t work – I retained my sense of logic.

And as the law states, the initiation is up to you.

Only according to you and other Christians who buy the same fantasy.

So do you want Him to provide you with proof of His existence or not?

I did when I was caught in the fantasy, but when nothing happened the truth dawned on me that he does not exist so nothing could ever happen.

If He exists, do you want to know Him or not? If you do, then He will.

Nothing happened and there is no reason to believe he does or could exist.

I also swear to you that it is real and that there will be evidence provided....it's just not time yet.

Until then I will remain skeptical, and for sure I don’t doubt your belief, but that doesn’t make your claims any more true or believable.

People who know me know that I'm not a liar,

You are not lying when you are convinced that something is true and state as you have. But the Christian fantasy is inherently dishonest and you have been caught in its trap.

This is serious...this is Revelation prophecy come to life. If you read Revelation ch 10, John is instructed to seal up what the seven thunders spoke, and not write it down. Then, at the end of the chapter, and after he has eaten the little scroll, he is told that he must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings. When? Now. That's my man...and that's exactly what he'll do.

It is mythology, plain and simple and is as believable as fairies and goblins or the Lord of the Rings. It bears no relationship with reality.

 

[water]

Cris,


Have you ever tried to LET God decide whether you are to believe in Him or not?