Man's intention

[davewhite04]

Hello Water

Just thought I’d mention that what you have written so far is wisdom filled. For example, when you mention that it’s God who chooses who to interact with, though this might cause controversy by Christians and Atheists, through my own experience this has been exactly correct. There are also thousands of other people (non Christians) who have experienced this too, and they have had nothing to gain from sharing their experience.

The above can be applied to Abraham, who lived in a pagan world and founded the Monotheistic belief system.

Atheists and maybe even some Christians would actually classify this as delusional, but experiences like his tend to have a very positive effect on their lives, while mental illness does the opposite, and that’s a fact.

The core message of Christianity, as far as the afterlife goes, is to believe in Jesus Christ. This simply means that Jesus actually walked the earth and was the prophesised Messiah, and was resurrected by God. Jesus didn’t say however, that you would have direct contact with God because of this, just that your eternal destination is secured.

I hazard a guess that even many long term Christians have never experienced the presence of God, maybe because they don’t need to or maybe because they are the folks Jesus talked about here.

Matthew 7:22-24
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Your open mindedness is a breath of fresh air in this place.

Dave

 

[Cris]

Water,

And you think the experience of Christianity is the same for everyone ...

That isn’t the issue. The issue is whether a god is the enabler of belief or not; whether each Christian has different experiences is irrelevant.

Not a second. If I only wait, I have done nothing.

But that isn’t true is it, you are constantly speculating about whether he exists or not and wondering when or if he is going to contact you – that is definite activity.

I don't have to speculate anything.
It took me a while, but I have come to realize that as soon as I stopped trying to believe in God, everything has become easy and relatively simple.
My experience is that the best one can do is stop trying to believe. This takes quite an effort though, as I had to consciously work through how I used to try to believe, nd why.

Well OK, welcome to atheism - i.e. absence of belief. It becomes easier after a few decades. Until then the god concept is a fantasy unless one pops up and announces itself.

It's not about failure, it's not a competition. As long as you view as a competition, you'll be disappointed.

I’m not, you introduced the issue of failure and didn’t define what you meant – and you still haven’t.

And you have just said that the belief matters more than the person.

I can’t see where I have said anything remotely like that.

There are two options in your case, since you say you had an idea of God:

a) You have truly believed in God and known Him, but didn't care, and this is how you let go of Him.

b) What you have actually believed in was an illusionary god, and this is why the belief hasn't lasted.

You continue to return to these confused and muddled concepts.

One can be totally convinced that a god exists, whether one exists or not.

Knowing a god implies that a god exists and actual communication, one way or two way has taken place. This can only be asserted but has never been verified. I have never claimed I know a god in this way.

The issue of caring? Not sure why that is relevant. I didn’t let go of a god. I let go of a belief because it couldn’t be substantiated.

The issue of illusionary gods must be weighed with the alternative – real gods. Are you saying that real gods exist? My belief didn’t last because there was nothing that indicated that gods are not illusionary.

There are only two ways that a person would retain a belief – (1) a god actually exists and has revealed itself and convinced the believer of this fact, or (2) the believer is not able to discriminate between fantasy and reason.

If you have a useful point here that I have missed then please try again.

Have you committed, with your heart, soul and mind?

I did at that time.

Just because humans have rationalized God, doesn't mean that God is man-made -- it is only the existing, put into words.

No one can show that gods are not man made and there is no logical reason to believe otherwise. Not really sure of your point here.

If you set out for failure, don't be surprised if you fail.

I didn’t – I was a very active evangelizing Christian. You are floundering here.

I shudder at how easily you put it -- fully commit! What that takes! What effort! I'd not dare to speak lightly about any commitment, as I know I could always point back and say, "But I wasn't really committed. I always had some second thoughts."

Then you haven’t understood the Christian requirement yet. “You must fully open your heart to God and let him in and he’ll do the rest. You must put your entire being in his hands, and genuinely ask for forgiveness and allow Jesus to enter your life and guide you”. If you cannot do that then you will never quite understand the Christian outlook.

If I become a Christian with the explicit intention to "do it for a while", then I dare say that I will be disappointed, and it won't work.

You are missing the point again. I didn’t do it as an experiment. I did it because I genuinely thought it was the correct thing to do. If you do this then it must be with the expectation that it might become permanent.

I'm not talking bullshit and you knew it if you weren't so emotional about the whole thing.

My observation was entirely objective.

I've tried out enough to know what I am talking about. I once *tried* to be a Christian too, *tried* to make myself believe. And all that. And I recently found where I went wrong back then.

Isn’t your argument that “trying” isn’t likely to work? So you are not speaking from experience and appear to be arguing against yourself.

I'm not asking you to reconsider Christianity! Not at all. I'm asking you to reconsider your basis for rejecting it.

Reading back through your posts it is very unclear what you are asking or saying. You have some confused ideas about illusory gods but do not clarify what other types there are, and have some notions about not trying to believe but are not sure how to do that.

I think you are still struggling to put all your ideas in order and haven’t clarified them fully yet.

But why ask me to reconsider my reasons for rejection? I do not see that you are offering alternate ways to reject god concepts that I have not already considered.

Why I am doing this? It is my shock at seeing another person stumble.

I don’t think you are qualified yet to pass such judgments.

 

[Lori_7]

was there not some psalm that was discovered that said that there was no reason for churches? (think the film stigmata mentions it)
of coures the catholic church quickly announced it to be blasphemous

What to be blasphemous, the psalm? lol! I don't know that one off the top of my head, but that doesn't surprise me. It's not that the organization has no value...it can and it has. Most importantly, to spread the Gospel...to preach the Word, to witness, and encourage people to read the Bible and study it. And in doing so, encourage people to seek God and a relationship with Him for themselves. They can serve as community centers, schools, day cares, universities even. And they've been huge into humanitarian relief efforts and charites. Organized religion is what it is...an organization of men. It's going to have it's good and it's bad just like any other. It's just that when you do something in the name of Jesus Christ, good or bad, the resulting affect is always more intense and more profound.

Jesus worshipped and preached in the temple. What the psalm probably means is that the organization or participation in it has nothing to do with being born again into the Kindgom. That is something that is personal between an individual and God Himself. It has nothing to do with going to church, or following doctrine, or adopting some different lifestyle, or "not sinning" or "being good", whatever that is supposed to mean. It's only dependent upon your desire and intent to know of Him and commune with Him. Organized religion becomes dangerous, deadly even, when it is presented and/or used as a substitute for this personal relationship with God. When going to church is a substitute for being The Church. That's when you see people take the Lord's name in vain and witness falsely of Him and of what it means to know Him. I see the effects of this all over this board, and everywhere. I think it's safe to say that it's a real turn-off.

What's important to know is that a church is not The Church. The Church, as described in the Bible as the Bride of Christ, is the group of those who are born again in Christ, and into His Kingdom. These people may or may not be found within the walls of some denomination or another.

 

[water]

davewhite04,

Hello Water

Just thought I’d mention that what you have written so far is wisdom filled. For example, when you mention that it’s God who chooses who to interact with, though this might cause controversy by Christians and Atheists, through my own experience this has been exactly correct. There are also thousands of other people (non Christians) who have experienced this too, and they have had nothing to gain from sharing their experience.

The above can be applied to Abraham, who lived in a pagan world and founded the Monotheistic belief system.

Atheists and maybe even some Christians would actually classify this as delusional, but experiences like his tend to have a very positive effect on their lives, while mental illness does the opposite, and that’s a fact.

The core message of Christianity, as far as the afterlife goes, is to believe in Jesus Christ. This simply means that Jesus actually walked the earth and was the prophesised Messiah, and was resurrected by God. Jesus didn’t say however, that you would have direct contact with God because of this, just that your eternal destination is secured.

I hazard a guess that even many long term Christians have never experienced the presence of God, maybe because they don’t need to or maybe because they are the folks Jesus talked about here.

Matthew 7:22-24
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Your open mindedness is a breath of fresh air in this place.

Dave

Thank you!




* * *



Cris,


I will say the same to you as I said to Crunchy Cat:
I think, so far, that the only god you would accept is the god of necessity. If it could be shown that a god (with the characteristics of the Christian God, for example) is a necessity, then you'd believe in that god -- for you had reason to believe in him.

A god is only a necessity if you want what said god offers. You don't want what JHVH offers, so He is not a necessity for you.

I really see no reason to bug around this any longer. You don't want to know God, and nobody can make you want that. You only want to know whether God is a necessity, or not. No *person* can prove that to you.


No hard feelings.

 

[Sarkus]

A friend of mine once opened himself utterly and totally to the wisdom of the fridge. He would sit in front of it and worship it and eat of the wisdom contained within.
Over the days, the weeks, the months and years that followed his full acceptance of the Word of the Fridge, he began to put on weight.

We chatted openly about why he was doing this to himself, why he was putting on so much weight.
He tried to explain to me that the fridge had called to him. He hadn't been looking for it, he hadn't actively sought its wisdom, but that one day it had called to him and he had listened.
So he took in the wisdom contained within the fridge - and grew larger with that wisdom.

I explained to him that I couldn't see anything in the fridge worthy of the worship he was giving it, and he told me that it was probably because I wasn't opening myself up fully to the wisdom, to the Word of the fridge.
I argued that he was illogical to be doing what he was doing - that there was no rationale, no reasoning, no evidence, no proof to the words he spoke, to support his belief in his fridge and the wisdom therein.

"You do not know the wisdom of the fridge because it is not speaking through you. Only when you accept the fridge and let it fully into your life, and let it work through you will you understand what I see, and why it is the truth, the One truth."

My friend is intelligent, rational in all other respects, and a joy to be around.

He is also delusional and suffering from a mental illness.

 

[Cris]

Water,

A god is only a necessity if you want what said god offers. You don't want what JHVH offers, so He is not a necessity for you.

Not true – Christianity promises eternal life and if you look at my label “in search of immortality” that is exactly what I want. It is not that I don’t want the Christian god it is that the Christian concept is transparent nonsense – as Einstein stated – the idea is childlike.

You don't want to know God, and nobody can make you want that. You only want to know whether God is a necessity, or not. No *person* can prove that to you.

I guess you are still a long way from understanding my position. Oh well.

 

[water]

Cris,



It is just totally beyond me why anybody would want to be immortal.
Have you always wanted that?

But maybe you've had such a good life that you'd want it to go on forever ...

 

[Lori_7]

Water,

Not true – Christianity promises eternal life and if you look at my label “in search of immortality” that is exactly what I want. It is not that I don’t want the Christian god it is that the Christian concept is transparent nonsense – as Einstein stated – the idea is childlike.

It is like a little child that one enters the Kingdom.

 

[SkinWalker]

Dont you think that man wrote the bible to be used as a guide to act as a decent person and used god to give them a reason to belief the bible. I dont think the bible is ment to be taken so literally. THe bible is just a book with god being the main character, and hopfully you learn a thing or two.

I'm going to reply without reading the entire thread, mainly because threads like this get off-topic so fast that I'll end up with a bias in my reply. If I've said anything that was already stated, forgive me, but consider it as a confirmation of an opinion.

I think men wrote the bible entirely with the goal of obtaining and maintaining wealth and power. This is pretty clear when it is considered that the authors of the bible are many, diverse geographically (as with the two authors of Genesis), that laws and policies conveniently support the religious heirarchies, etc.

Much of biblical mythology is directly attributable to other myths religious and social importance in other, older cultures of the Near East. Virgin births, floods, angry gods who inflict pestilance, famine and disease, messiahs, prophets, etc. are all tales that were told, some of them nearly word for word in other, older texts than the bible.

But what sets the Judeo-Christian bible apart is the redaction and editing of these stories that is done to reflect the new religion's monotheistic approach. The early Jewish priests were wise to figure out that polytheism created too many ways for people to leave a religion or to disregard one religion's authority for another. Indeed, there is artifactual and epigraphical evidence that this was done quite often in antiquity. The gods of one religion often find their way in another (even in Christianity -i.e. look at the Greek Nike and compare with christianity's "angel" concept).

To keep people in line and on-task when it came to a religion, a doctrine of monotheism had to be established. Early Jewish culture was a polytheistic one, owing much of it's pantheon to the Canaanite culture (if Jews and Canaanites aren't, in fact, the same people). "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," may have actually referred, initially, to physical position of the god on an alter of other gods! Yahweh up front, and others (Ba'al, Yahweh's wife Asherah, etc.) behind him. It later means, of course, that no other gods should be worshipped.

Power and wealth. The support of the priestly class by the poor. That is the goal of biblical mythology.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Cris,



It is just totally beyond me why anybody would want to be immortal.
Have you always wanted that?

But maybe you've had such a good life that you'd want it to go on forever ...

Amen, Amen, Amen!

 

[Cris]

Water,

It is just totally beyond me why anybody would want to be immortal.

It is the fundamental basis of every major religion - to overcome death. And certainly the basis of Christianity.

Why is it you want to die then? Isn't that a far more foolish goal?

What the heck are you interested in religion for then if it isn't to cheat death?

 

[Cris]

Lori,

It is like a little child that one enters the Kingdom.

No, childlike in this context means ignorant, irrational, immature, and gullible.

 

[Lori_7]

Christians want to live forever, just not in a world like ours is now. We look forward to something much better...something perfect. It seems that a sinless Creation is an eternal one, and that is what we are progressing towards.

God will have His way.

But to live forever in this world? In this body? That would be my worst nightmare. And that is what the mark of the beast will offer people....immortality of this flesh. "Men will seek death in those days and will not find it." While they curse God for what they've done to themselves. That's man's way...talk about a foolish goal.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori,

No, childlike in this context means ignorant, irrational, immature, and gullible.

I know. I was suggesting a different context.

When you're born again, you do feel like a child. This whole new world opens up to you...a completely new perception....a new existence. It's like learning to live all over again in a way. And the more you learn, the more you realize how much you don't know. So you learn that you can trust God, and you depend upon Him more and more...just like a child does a parent. He is your spiritual Father, and you are His child.

 

[TheHeretic]

Do you think arguing this is going to change any of your minds? No, your drowing in you own ego, and your arguing and debating because your all afraid that your beliefs are wrong and you need to convince your self that your right.

 

[water]

Cris,

Why is it you want to die then? Isn't that a far more foolish goal?

It's not that I would want to die. I just don't believe there is anything more to life than those 70 or so years.

What the heck are you interested in religion for then if it isn't to cheat death?

I'm interested in religion only inasmuch as to organize this life, now, with no particular regards to what happens after, if anything happens.

 

[Cris]

Water,

It's not that I would want to die. I just don't believe there is anything more to life than those 70 or so years.

Yes I very well understand that, and I think that is a mental conditioning brought about by two main events – (1) no one has yet developed a cure for aging, (2) religions encourage a belief that there are eternal souls, and that this meme is overwhelming in the world at the present time.

I'm interested in religion only inasmuch as to organize this life, now, with no particular regards to what happens after, if anything happens.

Ok yes I understand. So I would challenge you to think further on that. If you have no soul and there is no afterlife then what does it mater if there is a god or not? The power of religion lies in what they claim happens after death, whether you achieve eternal paradise or spend eternity in torment, or various reincarnation scenarios. If you do not have soul, i.e. duality is false then the issue of theism is moot. Hence my very special interest in neuroscience where the existence of a soul appears to play no role – the brain does everything once considered the domain of a soul. I.e. it seems certain to me that souls do not exist. From there religions become even more meaningless.

 

[water]

Cris,

Yes I very well understand that, and I think that is a mental conditioning brought about by two main events – (1) no one has yet developed a cure for aging, (2) religions encourage a belief that there are eternal souls, and that this meme is overwhelming in the world at the present time.

I'm not sure how this mental conditioning has been brought about -- but I've mentioned somewhere earlier that mortality is a matter of belief, not of fact. Speaking with strictest empirical precision, it is impossible to know you will die, we are conditioned to infer living beings die, and that so, we will die too.

But I believe that people fear death and long for immortality because they fear they lead meaningless lives, and they want to have more time to figure out what it is that they really want from life, and what it all means.

The "cure" for aging is in finding the meaning of life.

Ok yes I understand. So I would challenge you to think further on that. If you have no soul and there is no afterlife then what does it mater if there is a god or not?

See, and this is a path of thinking I never took.

I am much too concerned with this life to seriously think about what comes after. My belief in God has to do with the here and now, not with the hereafter.

The power of religion lies in what they claim happens after death, whether you achieve eternal paradise or spend eternity in torment, or various reincarnation scenarios.

I totally don't see it that way. I understand that many people view religion this way, but I never have.

If you do not have soul, i.e. duality is false then the issue of theism is moot. Hence my very special interest in neuroscience where the existence of a soul appears to play no role – the brain does everything once considered the domain of a soul. I.e. it seems certain to me that souls do not exist. From there religions become even more meaningless.

But you are mixing up disciplines of knowledge here. What in a particular theology is called "a soul", neuroscience describes as "brain functions", and psychology calls it "personality" or "character", and to cellular biochemistry, it is all just a chemical soup. The same phenomenon is conceptualized differently, depending on the discipline. It is an error to mix disciplines this way; it is easy to "disprove" what one discipline says with the findings of another discipline -- but this is not scientific proof.
A concept only makes sense within its native discourse; taken out of it and put into a non-native discourse, the concept usually becomes meaningless. There is no such thing as concepts that are true irregardless of discourse, unless one claims to have a fully objective grasp of objective reality.

 

[Cris]

Water,

I've mentioned somewhere earlier that mortality is a matter of belief, not of fact. Speaking with strictest empirical precision, it is impossible to know you will die, we are conditioned to infer living beings die, and that so, we will die too.

Uh well yup – but it is a very strong inductive argument that currently has a 100% track record. In that light it is more than somewhat stupid to assume that one will not die unless a way is found to avoid it.

But I believe that people fear death and long for immortality because they fear they lead meaningless lives, and they want to have more time to figure out what it is that they really want from life, and what it all means.

You are attempting to transfer a specific case to the general – that perspective doesn’t work for me. I have a full life but can see an endless list of things still to do that can take me quite a few thousand years to get through – beyond that –well we’ll see.

The "cure" for aging is in finding the meaning of life.

Nonsense. The cure needs hard science not philosophical gibberish.

I am much too concerned with this life to seriously think about what comes after. My belief in God has to do with the here and now, not with the hereafter.

Then I believe you have misunderstood the fundamental nature of religion.

I totally don't see it that way. I understand that many people view religion this way, but I never have.

So I see, which explains a lot about your posts here which I do find more than a little bizarre. It is like you are speaking a different language since you are adopting terminology and personal concepts that others do not share or can connect with.

But you are mixing up disciplines of knowledge here. What in a particular theology is called "a soul", neuroscience describes as "brain functions", and psychology calls it "personality" or "character", and to cellular biochemistry, it is all just a chemical soup.

No. There is no mixing. The two perspectives are opposites; one based on fantasy the other on reality.

The same phenomenon is conceptualized differently, depending on the discipline.

No you are quite wrong. There is no scientific equivalent to the religious concept of a soul.

 

[water]

It is all bizzare, bizzare, tres bizzare.