Man's intention

[Cris]

Water,

Have you ever tried to LET God decide whether you are to believe in Him or not?

Somewhat of a very confused and imprecise statement but I understand what you are trying to say.

But to answer the sentiment rather than the text: Sure that was a key part of my being a devout Christian back in the early 1970’s when I was a teenager.

 

[water]

Somewhat of a very confused and imprecise statement but I understand what you are trying to say.

But to answer the sentiment rather than the text: Sure that was a key part of my being a devout Christian back in the early 1970’s when I was a teenager.

Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be?
Was that way too slow, to unsatisfying for you?

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.
A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

 

[SnakeLord]

I must say I find it all very strange..

I've known people that have been very devout, often giving Lori style speeches, assurances and claims to knowledge. Then several years down the line they become a non-believer.

It shows beyond any doubt that through all of that and these people actually knew nothing. They hadn't "witnessed" anything. For someone to supposedly have a relationship with a being and then not believe that being exists shows the true worthlessness of speeches like Lori's.

At the end of the day these people have witnessed nothing. They're somewhat like Fox Mulder, with a giant "I want to believe" poster stuck on the wall behind them. After such a long time of wanting to believe, they actually believe they have seen god, or have a relationship with god. When reality strikes, they realise they haven't actually seen anything.

Of course it's worth asking, but I assume back in the 70's Cris sounded like some of the people on this forum - promoting his relationship with god, how it helped him yada yada and yet now people are trying to coax him back into something that he has done before and already found out is total fiction through first hand experience.

I can't say the same. I have never been religious or prone to god beliefs - generally due to the fact that there is not one solitary bit of evidence to suggest the existence of such a being. It's the same reason I don't believe in leprechauns - but to actually have been through it all, to have made all the same speeches and assurances, to have expressed the importance of faith and how all you need to do is ask etc etc, and then come out the other side knowing it was all nonsense really speaks volumes.

We even had the pleasure of seeing Southstar do it right on this forum. I used to really debate with the guy a long while back. He was really quite religious - and used all those same style arguments and stated his relationship with god and jesus and so on just like the other christians do, to just one day wake up from the nightmare and realise it was all garbage.

And so I will ask why. Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

 

[Ashley]

I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.
A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.

So where does free will come into the picture?

 

[Yorda]

Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

People advance. People change. Similarly, there are people who are complete atheists, and suddenly, they start believing in God. It's temporary... after a while, this person might become an atheist again. In the end, we will not believe or disbelieve, we will BE "god"... we will be ourselves. Like when we were small children.

Of course, then there are those who are atheists or believers their whole life.

 

[Lori_7]

I must say I find it all very strange..

I've known people that have been very devout, often giving Lori style speeches, assurances and claims to knowledge. Then several years down the line they become a non-believer.

It shows beyond any doubt that through all of that and these people actually knew nothing. They hadn't "witnessed" anything. For someone to supposedly have a relationship with a being and then not believe that being exists shows the true worthlessness of speeches like Lori's.

Well thanks a lot dickhead.

This is me out here being honest about what I live through every f'ing day of my life and what I've learned from it. I'm not on some political campaign. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I don't have some ministry I want you to donate to. And I'm not spewing a bunch of rhetoric or propaganda that I got from some preacher, organization, cult or literature. I'm not trying to be "right". I don't claim to have all of the answers, and I don't even want anyone to accept my word as proof of anything. I have just as much of a right to participate in discussions out here as you do. The fact that you don't agree with or believe what I testify to does not deem it to be worthless. I am being completely honest and speaking straight from the heart and based upon my life experience, and that is not worthless.

And honestly, I would have to be completely insane to deny God and Jesus Christ after everything I've been through. There is just no way...there is just no going back after what I've experienced...I can't conceive of it....I'd have to be out of my flippin' mind. When you are born again you know it.

Who knows why people do what they do, and say what they do? It's difficult enough to analyze our own motivations and intentions. I know people get involved in organized religion and start spewing the rhetoric very readily. Doesn't mean they're born again. People say what they hear others say, or what they think they "should" say, in order to belong to a group, or adopt a particular doctrine. People go around talking shit all the time. But I'm not, so speak for yourself, biotch.

 

[SnakeLord]

People advance. People change

Yeah, that goes without saying, but then 'advancing and changing' shouldn't really come into the picture as far as something's existence is concerned. You either know it exists or you don't. If these people do know it/he exists and have a relationship with this being, then there would never come a time where they don't believe it exists.

Well thanks a lot dickhead.

Charming. I see jesus has taught you how to be a lady.. :bugeye:

This is me out here being honest about what I live through every f'ing day of my life and what I've learned from it. I'm not on some political campaign. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I don't have some ministry I want you to donate to. And I'm not spewing a bunch of rhetoric or propaganda that I got from some preacher, organization, cult or literature.

I didn't say you were. However this is yet another speech that would join the rubbish heap if you ever became a non-believer, and yes Lori, it does happen. I was asking why, given that these people talk just like you do - making absolute statements of existence to this being, then later change tune and question its existence.

You've apparently seen/have a relationship with god, jesus and probably some other spooky invisible entities, and yet so have other people - all as adamant in their 'faith' and belief as you are, and yet a few years down the line and the being reverts back to non-existant. Why?

Let's look at this way as an example: You "know" your parents exist. You would not one day turn around and not believe they exist.. so why, if these people truly know of god and his existence, do they do that very same thing?

The fact that you don't agree with or believe what I testify to does not deem it to be worthless. I am being completely honest and speaking straight from the heart and based upon my life experience, and that is not worthless.

I can only ask you to read my post again. I think you've misread it.

People go around talking shit all the time. But I'm not, so speak for yourself, biotch.

I'm starting to think you'd be better off without jesus if your attitude is anything to go by.

 

[okinrus]

I've known people that have been very devout, often giving Lori style speeches, assurances and claims to knowledge. Then several years down the line they become a non-believer.

Lori's atypical, though, at least in her experiences.

It shows beyond any doubt that through all of that and these people actually knew nothing. They hadn't "witnessed" anything. For someone to supposedly have a relationship with a being and then not believe that being exists shows the true worthlessness of speeches like Lori's.

Faith always has the requirement of action or work. Not that it is work but that when you are remiss in what you harm your faith. Then again, perhaps something in our faith wasn't solid, and, like the guy who made his house of straw, were'll better off tearing down and rebuilding. But you're point in general has some problems. What happens when nonbelievers starts believing? Does that make all their claims of nonbelief any more unworthy than that of the believer who now disbelieves?.

And so I will ask why. Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

No matter how much evidence of God, a person could conceivably choose to forget.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Hi, this is my first posting in this forum, or any forum for that matter. Already, after just a few minutes of reading this thread, I LIKE THIS FORUM!! Here are my two cents worth:

You can't prove that God exists. Nor can you prove that he doesn't. So why all the fuss? What I hate are humans who think they know anything, and then get upset with anyone else who disagrees with them. Just admit you don't know for certain, listen to other points of view, and have a nice night thinking things over. Or, get angry, and die early of a heart attack. Doesn't really matter, in my opinion. Hell, Einstein couldn't even prove his theory of relativity, nor has anyone else for that matter. I'm not sure we're really up to the task, the way we get on sometimes.

Another point of view, !!

 

[SnakeLord]

But you're point in general has some problems. What happens when nonbelievers starts believing? Does that make all their claims of nonbelief any more unworthy than that of the believer who now disbelieves?.

It's vastly different. All a non believer requires is sight of that which he does not believe exists and he will, (or should), change to suit.

Let's say I'm walking through the woods and I stumble upon a leprechaun. I now know that leprechauns do exist. The problem arises when a year or so later I say leprechauns don't exist.

The difference is quite simple to spot. The one man doesn't know something exists but then finds it and now knows it does. The other man supposedly knows something exists, and then later on doesn't think it does exist - even though prior to that moment he would have stated boldly that it does exist and that he's seen it/been good friends with it.

No matter how much evidence of God, a person could conceivably choose to forget.

Or perhaps they could be like Drew Barrymore from 50 First Dates.. C'mon Okinrus - while a man might forget where he put his keys, or when his grandmothers birthday is, what is there to justify that a person would forget that something he has had a relationship with exists - whether they would choose to do so or not? (most of us try hard doing just that with ex girlfriends, all to no avail).

It's exactly why the religious person uses such words as: "faith" and "believe". They clearly show there is absolutely no knowledge of the existence of such a thing, but mere guesswork.

So honestly.. why bother in the first place?

 

[killslay]

seeing as nobody is going to agree theres only one way this arguement is going to be sorted...
mud wrestling!... no?... never mind then

 

[water]

No matter how much evidence of God, a person could conceivably choose to forget.

No.
I disagree on principle. We cannot willfully forget.

We cannot demand that a person does something which canot be done intentionally.

We do not and can not CHOOSE to forget, doubt, admire, respect, fall asleep, fall in love, have courage and some more other states.

These are states that are essentially side products of other processes.

These other processes may be in part intentional, but oblivion or doubt are not intentional.

We can *pretend* though to be in any of the above states, yet they aren't genuine then. I can, for example, do as if I doubt my screen name is "water", but this won't be a genuine doubt.

 

[water]

And so I will ask why. Why would someone who 'knows' god exists, who has a relationship with him, speaks to him or whatever end up not even believing in the beings existence?

Then they have never truly believed.

What they have believed in was a strawgod, an illusionary god born out of (unwittingly) trying to please people or born out of the desire to believe (or escape etc.).

When such people lose their faith, they only lose faith in that *illusionary* god.

This doesn't have necessarily something to do with God. It might, but I fail to see how.

 

[water]

So where does free will come into the picture?

If a person wills to believe in God, God can grant them faith, or prepare them to receive it.
There is no violation of free will in this.

 

[SkippingStones]

Perhaps you can't forget things on the spot, but you can purposely avoid thinking about them. If you do that long enough, you will forget, as long as you keep avoiding thinking about them.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that someone can't willfully affect their memory to the extent we call 'forgetting'.

 

[water]

Perhaps you can't forget things on the spot, but you can purposely avoid thinking about them. If you do that long enough, you will forget, as long as you keep avoiding thinking about them.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that someone can't willfully affect their memory to the extent we call 'forgetting'.

If I wish away the book off my desk, I can do so by picking it up and putting it in the drawer. And I don't see it anymore.

But to wish away a thought, something that is only a mental content includes thinking about that, which makes that very thought present, ergo, it doesn't go away if I wish it away.

What usually happens is that a person hates that thought, and it is *via this hate* that the doing away with that thought works (because people usually aren't all that fond of dwelling for too long on things they hate).


"Forgetting" is only a title term of a long list of strategic actions involved in the process that results in forgetting, ie. state of oblivion of a certain thing.

 

[Lori_7]

Charming. I see jesus has taught you how to be a lady.. :bugeye:



I didn't say you were. However this is yet another speech that would join the rubbish heap if you ever became a non-believer, and yes Lori, it does happen. I was asking why, given that these people talk just like you do - making absolute statements of existence to this being, then later change tune and question its existence.

You've apparently seen/have a relationship with god, jesus and probably some other spooky invisible entities, and yet so have other people - all as adamant in their 'faith' and belief as you are, and yet a few years down the line and the being reverts back to non-existant. Why?

Let's look at this way as an example: You "know" your parents exist. You would not one day turn around and not believe they exist.. so why, if these people truly know of god and his existence, do they do that very same thing?



I can only ask you to read my post again. I think you've misread it.



I'm starting to think you'd be better off without jesus if your attitude is anything to go by.

My attitude? Please tell me you're kidding. You know, I was just kidding around with the name calling, I thought that was obvious, but then again, I suppose nothing is obvious to an atheist. Are you always this uptight, or only when you're talking to a Christian? There, there, I'm so sorry, you delicate little flower...

And I don't care what someone else has done. I don't care what you may speculate that I will do in the future. I am being completely honest in sharing my thoughts and experiences, AND THAT IS NEVER WORTHLESS.

Maybe you should check your own attitude Snake. Telling people that their experience, thoughts, and ideas and what they have to say about them is worthless isn't very nice. It's downright rude, insensitive, and holier than thou arrogant. What's wrong with you, have you up and joined a church or something?

 

[Sarkus]

My attitude? Please tell me you're kidding. You know, I was just kidding around with the name calling, I thought that was obvious, but then again, I suppose nothing is obvious to an atheist.

HEY!!
I object to such generalisation!

As my Pa used to say (well, actually he didn't but it sounds good) - "If in doubt of the tone of your post, always use a Smilie "

What's wrong with you, have you up and joined a church or something?

Interesting comment. My twin brother, devoutly Catholic, has managed to convince almost my entire extended family that I have been led astray and joined the Cult of the Atheist. They are all so worried for me - and some refuse to admit it (which makes me laugh - which I probably shouldn't do). Some questioned me about this "cult" - about how many times I went to "meetings" (none - compared to their once-a-week minimum), what literature they were forcing me to read (none - compared to their Bible), who the Head of my Cult was (noone - compared to their Pope), what strange beliefs they were making me accept (none - compared to their countless), what bizarre initiation ceremonies I had to go through (none - compared to their Baptism, Confirmation etc), and whether they expected me to take odd substances (none, compared to their cannabilism).
After that they've never broached the subject again.

 

[Lori_7]

HEY!!
I object to such generalisation!

As my Pa used to say (well, actually he didn't but it sounds good) - "If in doubt of the tone of your post, always use a Smilie "

Word to my mom. I suppose I do have a rather f'd up sense of humor...and speaking of which...

Interesting comment. My twin brother, devoutly Catholic, has managed to convince almost my entire extended family that I have been led astray and joined the Cult of the Atheist. They are all so worried for me - and some refuse to admit it (which makes me laugh - which I probably shouldn't do). Some questioned me about this "cult" - about how many times I went to "meetings" (none - compared to their once-a-week minimum), what literature they were forcing me to read (none - compared to their Bible), who the Head of my Cult was (noone - compared to their Pope), what strange beliefs they were making me accept (none - compared to their countless), what bizarre initiation ceremonies I had to go through (none - compared to their Baptism, Confirmation etc), and whether they expected me to take odd substances (none, compared to their cannabilism).
After that they've never broached the subject again.

You've got to be kidding?!?! It would be funny if it weren't so disturbing. I didn't think that Catholics lived in caves or in "hollers"...how'd they get so uneducated? Sorry about your fam, you poor thing. But don't feel too bad...everyone's fam drives them nuts in some way regarding something.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

water: Why did you stop letting God decide how your faith in Him is to be? Was that way too slow, to unsatisfying for you?
*************
M*W: When one makes a decision about 'faith,' God has NOTHING to do with it! Otherwise, you are a liar about the existence of free will.
*************
water: I'm asking this because if a person tries to consciously believe in God, out of their own effort, he will most likely be left disappointed, or in superstition.
*************
M*W: And this disappointment foreruns the truth! It has nothing to do with 'superstition.' 'Superstition' implies the ratio between reality and supernatuality.
*************
water: A person's belief (that he comes to believe) in God is God's doing, not that person's. Therefore, if a person finds himself wanting to believe in God, the best they can do is not try to believe, and let God do the work.
*************
M*W: Then there is no free will. I'm not surprised.