Man divorces & sues wife for being ugly, wins

[seagypsy]

Indeed..

This whole story and the current debate in this thread is disgustingly pathetic.

The premise that any person has to disclose to their potential spouse that they may or may not have been unattractive at some point in their life is, to say the least, ridiculous.

Personally, looking at that baby, I don't see anything wrong or so repulsive with her that would lead her father of all people to sue the mother because she was apparently ugly in the past and gave birth to that little girl.

What seems to stand out more in this story is the sex of the child. It is quite possible that this fuckknuckle of a father wanted a son and found an out by going after the little girl's looks instead.

---

I think you make a very good point. This very well may have been his actual motives. But it is only speculation. We can't know what his real motives were, and as someone else stated. The mother and child are probably better off without him. I also don't feel the financial award was justified. I don't know how easy it is for single mothers to get along in China, but they took money out of that child's mouth to give to her father. I think that is shameful. I don't think the father should be awarded for being shallow. I do think the divorce should have been allowed however.

All these comments about how she should have told him about the surgery before she married him. Okay, to those individuals. Say you meet someone and they tell you they had a nose job or the like before they met you. Are you telling me you would refuse to date them or marry them because they may have been unattractive before said surgery? Is the first thing that comes to your mind is 'dear lord what will the children look like?!'..?

I would imagine you would not think that.

In America or any other western culture I doubt anyone would freak out much about what their children would look like. After all I have seen two very ugly people produce beautiful children, and two beautiful people produced what looked like a deformed troll. There are no guarantees which genes will be passed down and how the two sets will mix in a child.

China, from what I have been told by my Asia obsessed daughter, is a very shallow culture where looks are every thing, even for men. They take beauty to such extremes that you cannot always tell the men from the women. They apparently hate the shape of their eyes and often get surgeries to make their eyes look like non-asians. They like the double eyelid.

Maybe our reaction is due to our inability to fathom just how far they take beauty requirements there. And we are assuming they live in a social environment like we do and so the guy is some kind of enigma. After talking to my daughter, (she has loads of Chinese friends online that she chats with), it's likely that this isn't such a weird thing over there and people, men and women both, will want to divorce you if they discover that you are not naturally as beautiful as you present yourself to be.

So while it seems sexist to us, because we are seeing a woman as the victim, this is just one case of such a thing happening. From what I am told, (granted this is just hearsay), men often get the axe for this sort of thing as well. So I don't think this is a case of sexism as much as it may just be an example of how the Chinese culture regards the importance of appearance. I wonder why beauty is paramount there. [I should note that I am not implying that Bells is saying it is sexist, I am only addressing this angle because it has been presented as a possible angle more directly by others. Bells may also feel it is sexist, but I think I would have to stretch her words more to get that specific implication out of it]

When we get to the point where men are suing women for being too ugly or for giving birth to a supposedly ugly baby, then we can safely say that that society has failed dismally. And individuals defending this arsewipe of a father and husband should really take a cold long and hard look in the mirror and think for a moment, how would you feel if you become the parent of a child and the other parent sues you because they blame you because they think that their child is too ugly?.. Think about it for a moment. Think of the implications of what this entails. In effect, this woman was sued for her looks and the guy won. Why? Because the father did not think his daughter was pretty enough as a baby..

I don't think anyone here has agreed with the outcome of the suit entirely. They agree she should have been forth coming and the divorce should have been allowed, and not necessarily for the sake of the man. But I don't think anyone here has said that the money he was awarded was ethical. Just think, if she had been honest about this she could have avoided marrying the prick from the start. I don't think the subject she lied about is not the issue any of us are having a problem with, its the lying in general. If you would lie (or withhold information with intent to deceive) about something like plastic surgery or having previously been not so pretty, what else might you lie about, what other secrets are you hiding?

Imagine if someone had a medical condition which is a dominant trait passed to the child 80% of the time, that was fixed with major surgery that could have killed them, but was undetectible now. They withhold that information from a mate and they produce a child who then inherits that condition, and they don't have the money to correct it. Now this mate has a child who is suffering and they cannot do anything to stop the child's pain. Now this is a more noble reason to be offended by the deception, yes? Well some people, like myself get offended by deception no matter what it is meant to hide. Now I doubt this guy is divorcing on the grounds that she lied and that it was the deception alone that bothered him. I imagine he is just an asshole. But in a society where looks matter so much, I think it was an asshole move on her part to not tell him of her true appearance and allow him to decide before the marriage if it was something he was ok with or not. It would have spared her this pain now if she had upfront with him. Because if he truly is just a prick, he would have left her and she could have had a child with someone more deserving of her. But being deceptive has now brought pain and anguish on her and especially her child.

This woman didn't have a type of surgery that would affect their marriage or ability to have children - which one could say would be something that could be open to lawsuits - such as a person withholding that they cannot have children, for example. What she apparently (if people in this thread are to be believed) withheld her looks before the surgery to her husband. Now, has he never seen photos of her before the surgery? Baby photos? And if he hadn't, is it still something that one should be able to sue about and actually win? Really? Looks are so important that one can sue if one marries someone they think is ugly and who had surgery? This woman had plastic surgery and she was sued because the court deemed her ugly before the surgery.

What's going to be next?

Apparently, in China, looks ARE that important. Maybe I have misinterpreted the posts of others, but I don't think anyone has said that the man in this case is a gem of a man. They have only asserted, as far as I can tell, that the woman should have been forthcoming.

I mean if we are suing because we think a child is born ugly and so, it is the mother's fault (because apparently the father had no role to play in the formation of that baby) and most importantly, her looks, what is going to be next?

You make a good point, I wonder what the dad looked like. He reminds me of my most recent ex-husband. He divorced his most recent wife because she got pregnant twice, by him! I told her not to worry, the stigma of being a single mother in Pakistan is nothing compared to the horror of being a wife in his family and that she will be much better off as a single mom.

 

[Bells]

I think you are correct, but he went to court with a case his lawyers told him he had the best chance of winning. For the record if a woman spent a $100,000.00 to look better than she did. I would appreciate the hell out of it.

Except if you are this guy of course..

But here is where we get funny.. Case in point:

This is, of course, misrepresenting the facts in order to allow yourself room to be morally outraged. We're not simply talking about a nosejob, we're talking about a hundred thousand dollars worth of cosmetic surgery. As to your question of whether or not we'd date them because they were unattractive, are we supposed to pretend that physical attraction plays no role in it? Did you marry a hunchback, perchance? If so, then congrats on your consistency, but otherwise, you're not kidding anyone with this nonsense.

Speaking of moral outrage. Why are you so morally outraged at this woman? Why are you defending a man who sued a woman because he thinks his baby daughter is too ugly?

Think about it for a moment Balerion.

This fuckwit sued his wife because he thought his daughter was ugly.

And you think this is acceptable? Really?

Is this a new standard for divorce in China?

It is quite possible that the child got her looks from his side of the family or from one or both of their ancestors. Look at that child's photo. If she looks like her mother when her mother was that age, you know, pre-plastic surgery and before the mother grew up, you think that child has a face that should cause a father to sue his wife over? Really Balerion?

Since the article is not clear, the cosmetic surgery could have involved things like a boob job, pinning back ears, teeth.. no where does it say that she was ugly beforehand. No where. And keep in mind that she would have paid out of pocket for this, so yes, even minor things like bracers, which can cost in excess of $15000 or getting caps, which can cost more, could and would count towards "cosmetic surgery". She could have had her ears pinned back, which many people do get, which could have run into the thousands of dollars. The article also does not say when and how the cosmetic surgery occurred. Did it start from childhood (such as pinning back her ears for example), from when she was a teenager (pimple scars is another example)... Was the $100,000 in one go or accumulative over a period of years from childhood into adulthood for example? Do you tell your potential spouse everything you have ever had done? Do you show her before and after photos because of how the baby may look one day in the future? Do you disclose if you had bracers, for example? How about if you had pimples?

So you are implying that this woman was apparently ugly enough to be sued because her husband felt that their child was ugly?

Show me where in that article or find me proof that this woman was so ugly to begin with and then we can discuss your moral outrage.

The man didn't think the kid looked like either of them, so he accused her of cheating. Then he found out that she had a ton of cosmetic surgery to make her look different. He feels lied to, and rightfully so. Was a divorce and lawsuit how I would have handled it? No, but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

He felt lied to?

How about the lies he spouted to her in his wedding vows? Aww, poor man, his baby isn't what he wanted it to be or look like he wanted it to look like, so he sued her.

What a shame she couldn't counter sue him for being an arsehole for suing because he didn't like how his daughter looked.

No, the man won because the woman lied. I know this throws a huge wrench in your feigned moral outrage machien, and so you choose to ignore it, but I'm not going to let you forget it. Imagine what kind of sick narcissism it takes to have your face chopped up to the tune of a hundred grand. Imagine the level of dishonesty required to then hide it from your husband. And you have the gall to act like the husband is to blame, rather than the lying wife? I mean, the nerve!

Show me where in that article does it say she had her whole face re-done. For all you know she may have had an accident in her past or done minor things like pin back her ears and teeth for example. Hardly things that one would feel one would have to disclose to one's potential spouse.

But tell me Balerion, since when did one have to disclose one's looks in the past to any potential spouse? Did he not see any photos of her as a child, for example? He never visited her family and seen her photos from when she was young?

Imagine the level of dishonesty it would take to sue your wife because you thought your daughter was ugly.

You appear to be more morally outraged than anyone else in this thread because you seem to believe in your mind that this woman was ugly to begin with. How vain and narcissistic are you? Do you ask your girlfriends if she has had any work done or any cosmetic surgery because you are afraid that you may have an ugly child?

The irony of this, of course is you ask any parent about when their children are born and half the time, the child does not look like either of its parents, regardless of whether the parents are ugly or good looking. I know my eldest still does not look like either his father or myself.

No, she was sued because she lied. Again, it's that one little detail that you can't quite bring yourself to accept, but without it you're not telling the whole story. It's easy enough to frame it as "he sued her because she's ugly," but the real reason is because she lied to him, and got him to marry her under false pretenses. Maybe you think it should be okay to trick someone into marrying you, but the court didn't, and neither do I.

Now show me where and how this woman was ugly before her surgery.

---

Imagine if someone had a medical condition which is a dominant trait passed to the child 80% of the time, that was fixed with major surgery that could have killed them, but was undetectible now. They withhold that information from a mate and they produce a child who then inherits that condition, and they don't have the money to correct it. Now this mate has a child who is suffering and they cannot do anything to stop the child's pain. Now this is a more noble reason to be offended by the deception, yes?

You equate how she may have looked to a medical condition which can be passed on to a child?

It's not even in the same ballpark.

And no one has been able to show that this woman was ugly before her "cosmetic" surgery. No one even knows what she had done. People are assuming that she was somehow ugly.

Look at that child's photo and tell me that child had a face worth suing over. Tell me what is wrong with that child that led her father to sue her mother because the mother did not tell him she had cosmetic surgery. If that child looks like her mother, do you think, looking at that child's face, that the mother would have been ugly enough to sue over?

When you married your current spouse, did you disclose at the start of the relationship every single piece of dental work and any minor surgeries you may have had in your past? Did you disclose if you had zit treatment, for example? Would you disclose if you had liposuction to your thighs? How about if you got your ears pinned back? Would you make a list and give it to him and say to him 'you need to be aware of this because this could impact what our children look like'? Do you think a woman is deceiving her potential spouse if she doesn't tell him she got bracers or her teeth done, as one example, before she met him?

We aren't talking about a medical condition, seagypsy. How she may have looked before her surgery is hardly a medical condition.

 

[Asguard]

Bells could you please point out where it says that a women bringing the same case wouldn't get the same result

and as for treating the child as a possession would you like me to dig up your OWN comments about your children being your possessions because you spat them out or Orleanders comments about her right to mutilate her baby boy because he belongs to her?

The case is about deception based on what i have read NOT possession. The fact that in the west we let people get away with things that if the relationship was corprate we would send them to jail for doesnt mean that is the only way to go. Do I think this situation is right? If it was me, no it wouldnt be right, however I dont live in a culture where you only have one shot at a child and then you only have one shot at a grandchild, I cant imagin the focus that would cause on making sure your child was apsolutly perfect. If we chose we can have 4 kids like my parents did. Its really easy to sit in any other country and judge this but i think your missing the cultural perspective which you would only get if you came from that culture.

And dont forget there are stupid laws in EVERY country, in france a guy was charged AND CONVICTED of not putting out enough (a case there would have been massive OUTRAGE against if it had been a women, "its her body and its her choice if she wants to have sex")

In Australia we still cant manage to accept that a relationship matters no matter whats between the peoples legs

In the US they cant even manage to sign the international charter on the RIGHTS of the child.

 

[Neverfly]

The assumption is that for a hundred grand worth of work, she needed a hundred grand worth.
Granted the word: assumption.

I disagree with the suit. Also, I find the divorce absurd.

So far, Seagypsy, Balerion, Killjoyklown and others have agreed that the suit and the divorce were silly. Everyone's agreed the man acted like a douche.
Also, agreed, was that for one hundred grand worth of cosmetic surgery, in another culture, she hid something from her husband. Whether or not someone discloses all their past is irrelevant. Whether they disclose Minor things is irrelevant. The question was more of "Should she have disclosed this?"

Now, I've disclosed, in the course of normal conversation, that I've had a lot of dentistry and orthodontia. In excess of $60,000 worth. These things come up.

That the woman disclosed nothing; it hints, suggests... that she did not want it known. She was probably hiding it.
It's also possible that she did not hide it. That it just never came up as a topic.

Either way, I believe she should have told him when it came time for the little talk about the pitter patter of little feet.

Perhaps, Bells, you, in providing small and minor examples, also see extensive plastic surgery as minor. Maybe many people would agree. Maybe many people wouldn't let that lead to divorce or a stupid opportunistic lawsuit. Many people might see it as major, not minor. And you don't have the right nor the authority to tell them they must see it as minor. It may be very important to them.
But he did. He's a douche that would. And he won- because she failed to disclose her true status.

 

[seagypsy]

Speaking of moral outrage. Why are you so morally outraged at this woman? Why are you defending a man who sued a woman because he thinks his baby daughter is too ugly?

I don't think Balerion has expressed any moral outrage towards the woman. All anyone has said is that she should have been upfront about the surgery. No one has said she is a horrible person, deserves jail time or anything like that. All derogatory names have been aimed at the man. But even assholes have rights to know the truth. Even if they will act badly in light of that knowledge. It's also been pointed out that the man also lied about his love for her. Personally, I think if you really love someone and discover they have a secret, even a secret that came back and had a negative affect on you, that love would eventually lead you to forgive, understand, and grow closer to them. IMO, his love for her was superficial or at the very least, not as strong as anyone would ideally hope the love of a man for his wife ought to be.

When you married your current spouse, did you disclose at the start of the relationship every single piece of dental work and any minor surgeries you may have had in your past?

Actually, yes. You see I have no teeth. Just before meeting him, I had all my teeth removed because they were brittle and breaking. I have full dentures. I told him this and even sent him a picture of my toothless smile. Because he didn't believe me. Our relationship started from a distance. I wanted him to know this because, although I do have dentures, I figured I wouldn't be able to hide that my teeth were fake forever. They sometimes come dislodged when eating, and of course not taking them out at night can lead to throat irritations. Which means he would eventually be waking up to a toothless faced woman. This could have been horrifying to him. Lucky for me Neverfly, is one that rolls with the punches. but if he were a shallow bastard, I wanted to know before I got emotionally attached to him, So I told him all my dirty little secrets before we even got that serious. As far as minor surgeries go, i have only had 2 c-sections and a tubal ligation. So yeah, I told him about them, especially since the tubal ligation would prevent me from having any other kids and the c-sections created these scars that I could never hide from him. They also affect the way I look naked. For all I knew scars would gross him out and he would be totally turned off by them. I wanted to give him every opportunity to run screaming so that I wouldn't get all emotionally attached only to have him dump me over some dark issue in my life that I could not change. So I disclose for my own benefit, not for his. So I believe the woman was unwise, not evil. And this lack of wisdom blew up in her face. I don't think the guy is a saint at all. I think he is a douche bag. But even douche bags deserve the truth.

Did you disclose if you had zit treatment, for example?

Well yeah, wouldn't want him to think the sores were herpes.

Would you disclose if you had liposuction to your thighs?

Probably since they leave scars and he would eventually ask how I got the scars, and I tend to suck at telling stories on the spot.

How about if you got your ears pinned back?

Yes, I have even asked him his opinion on if I should. I think I should, but he likes the pixie look I sport.

Would you make a list and give it to him and say to him 'you need to be aware of this because this could impact what our children look like'?

No, but when we met, I was no longer able to have children. So my issues would have no affect on him personally or any children. They would only be issues that affect whether or not he would be attracted to me. And I don't see how lying to someone is a good way to start off a relationship. I also do not see why anyone would feel they should lie about steps they have taken to feel good about their own appearance. We all do things to alter our appearance, why be ashamed of what we do. I also made sure he knew what I looked like without make up.

Do you think a woman is deceiving her potential spouse if she doesn't tell him she got bracers or her teeth done, as one example, before she met him?

You may have a point here, but braces and cosmetic surgery are not exactly the same thing. Braces usually correct a problem that is more than mere vanity. Usually it corrects problems with speech and being able to chew properly. And braces is something I have heard every young set of new parents consider a high possibility for their kid even if neither parent ever had them. Braces are just too common of a necessity, just like fillings, root canals, or caps. I never had braces and neither of my past husbands ever had braces, but two of my children need them and one even has an overbite, Neither I nor her father have overbites. She just inherited his top jaw and my lower jaw it seems. Btw, she has done modeling even with her overbite.

Plastic surgery is usually referred to as cosmetic surgery because it is for purely cosmetic reasons.

We aren't talking about a medical condition, seagypsy. How she may have looked before her surgery is hardly a medical condition.

True, but it seems that in some cultures, unattractiveness is even seen as a disability. Perhaps it is the same in China. And no, none of us know what she looked like, but even if we thought she was a drop dead beauty, that doesn't mean he perceives her that way.

So far, Seagypsy, Balerion, Killjoyklown and others have agreed that the suit and the divorce were silly.

Actually I was fine with the divorce. But not because of anything to do with this case in particular. I just don't feel it is right to force, legally, anyone to remain married to someone they no longer want to be married to. I do however think it may be reasonable to fine people for getting divorced for frivolous reasons, but then I think we would have a hard time determining which reasons were frivolous. I guess that would be a jury case there. But as you said, the suit was stupid.

 

[Balerion]

Speaking of moral outrage. Why are you so morally outraged at this woman? Why are you defending a man who sued a woman because he thinks his baby daughter is too ugly?

I'm not morally outraged at anyone. I'm not the one who came into this thread calling the parties involved--as well as the discussion being had about them--disgusting. That was you, remember? I'm also not defending his choice of actions. You'll recall from Post 21, I said: "Now, is suing your wife over how ugly your kid looks sane and normal behavior? Clearly not." What I'm defending is his right to be upset that his wife didn't tell him about her plastic surgery.

Think about it for a moment Balerion.

This fuckwit sued his wife because he thought his daughter was ugly.

And you think this is acceptable? Really?

Well, that's a load question, because it's framed incorrectly. He didn't sue because his daughter was ugly. He first thought his wife had cheated on him based on the appearance of the child. Then, when she admitted to having $100,000 worth of surgery, he sued her for marrying him under false pretenses. Now, do I agree with his actions? No, I don't. But I don't blame him for being upset by his wife's lying.

Is this a new standard for divorce in China?

I have no idea what the law is over there, so I couldn't say. But, really, shouldn't you be allowed to divorce someone for whatever reason you want?

It is quite possible that the child got her looks from his side of the family or from one or both of their ancestors. Look at that child's photo. If she looks like her mother when her mother was that age, you know, pre-plastic surgery and before the mother grew up, you think that child has a face that should cause a father to sue his wife over? Really Balerion?

You're clearly trying to appeal to emotion. ("Lookit da cute babers! Lookit how cuuuuute!") What I'm trying to do is discuss the actual facts of the matter--or at least what we know of them.

Since the article is not clear, the cosmetic surgery could have involved things like a boob job, pinning back ears, teeth.. no where does it say that she was ugly beforehand. No where. And keep in mind that she would have paid out of pocket for this, so yes, even minor things like bracers, which can cost in excess of $15000 or getting caps, which can cost more, could and would count towards "cosmetic surgery". She could have had her ears pinned back, which many people do get, which could have run into the thousands of dollars. The article also does not say when and how the cosmetic surgery occurred. Did it start from childhood (such as pinning back her ears for example), from when she was a teenager (pimple scars is another example)... Was the $100,000 in one go or accumulative over a period of years from childhood into adulthood for example? Do you tell your potential spouse everything you have ever had done? Do you show her before and after photos because of how the baby may look one day in the future? Do you disclose if you had bracers, for example? How about if you had pimples?

You're really reaching here, Bells, and I think you know it. I don't know the status of braces in China, but over here they are considered a medical procedure, not cosmetic. But even counting that, the implication of the article was not simply that she got acne scars removed--which wouldn't bring her anywhere close to a hundred grand anyway--but that she's had major work done. It doesn't matter whether it's been done all at once or over the years, it's enough work that she made herself look different. This bit about whether or not she was actually ugly prior to the surgery is a giant red herring on your part; what matters is that she used surgery to (presumably) drastically alter her appearance.

So you are implying that this woman was apparently ugly enough to be sued because her husband felt that their child was ugly?

You're twisting everything. Literally everything. Nowhere did I imply that she was ever ugly, let alone ugly enough to be sued, nor is that what is implied by the article. He sued her because he felt tricked. No matter what she looked like before, that's not what she looks like now, so he obviously had a case. Do I think it's morally right to sue someone over this? Not really, but I'm also not in a position where I'd have to pay heavy fines for having a second child. (I also have a hard time believing a hundred grand of plastic surgery wouldn't be immediately noticeable, but maybe he was blinded by love. Who knows?)

You know what else isn't morally right? Lying to someone about your past. Actually, I recall a stand-up routine about this very subject. Forget who it was, but he went on for a bit about how women who get cosmetic surgery are liars, because that's not what they really look like, and that sure as hell isn't what your kid's going to look like.

Show me where in that article or find me proof that this woman was so ugly to begin with and then we can discuss your moral outrage.

Show me where her ugliness is relevant at all, either to my argument or the court case.

He felt lied to?

How about the lies he spouted to her in his wedding vows? Aww, poor man, his baby isn't what he wanted it to be or look like he wanted it to look like, so he sued her.

That's not why he sued her. Are you doing this on purpose, or are you just so mad that you're not thinking clearly? It's really very annoying to have someone so blatantly misconstrue a subject seemingly just so they can feel justified in their pretentious outrage.

What a shame she couldn't counter sue him for being an arsehole for suing because he didn't like how his daughter looked.

I won't necessarily disagree with that, but I do find it intersting (perhaps not surprising) that you find no fault in her decption.

Show me where in that article does it say she had her whole face re-done. For all you know she may have had an accident in her past or done minor things like pin back her ears and teeth for example. Hardly things that one would feel one would have to disclose to one's potential spouse.

Bells, "minor things" don't add up to a hundred thousand dollars.

But tell me Balerion, since when did one have to disclose one's looks in the past to any potential spouse? Did he not see any photos of her as a child, for example? He never visited her family and seen her photos from when she was young?

It's not about disclosing one's looks, it's about disclosing the fact that she had a ton of cosmetic surgery before they met. As for pictures of her as a child, I have no idea. The article doesn't say. I'd love to see an interview with one of them, it might help clear this up.

Imagine the level of dishonesty it would take to sue your wife because you thought your daughter was ugly.

Oof. Tried to turn my words around on me and fell flat on your face doing so. What the hell would dishonesty have to do with suing his wife over the looks of the child? Oh, right: Nothing. Also, and I feel like a broken record, but I must correct you every time you misrepresent things: He didn't sue her because the baby was ugly. He sued her because she lied to him.

You appear to be more morally outraged than anyone else in this thread because you seem to believe in your mind that this woman was ugly to begin with.

I'm sorry, but that's a load of shit. First of all, go back and read your ranting posts. Nobody's more upset about this than you. Well, wynn was earlier, but you're a close second. Secondly, show me where I said that this woman was ugly. Show me.

How vain and narcissistic are you? Do you ask your girlfriends if she has had any work done or any cosmetic surgery because you are afraid that you may have an ugly child?

No, and I don't condone suing anyone over such a thing. But I also don't condone lying to your partner, something you seem to have no problem with. Tell me, is your partner aware that you feel no obligation to tell him anything about yourself? Is he aware that if he doesn't ask, you don't believe in telling him?

Oh, we don't like it when the tables are turned, do we?

The irony of this, of course is you ask any parent about when their children are born and half the time, the child does not look like either of its parents, regardless of whether the parents are ugly or good looking. I know my eldest still does not look like either his father or myself.

It's ironic because if that's true, his unfounded fears lead him to a different deception. He first thought she had been cheating, and through this accusation discovered that she had gotten a ton of work done. Of course, I still don't agree with suing, but maybe that's a cultural thing. Who knows.

Now show me where and how this woman was ugly before her surgery.

You show me where I ever said she was.

 

[seagypsy]

I saw a news documentary many years ago about a particular country that viewed ugliness as a disability and therefore sponsored cosmetic surgery for welfare recipients that were determined to be ugly. I don't remember which country it was but I think it was Argentina. Though it may have been some other South American country. I only know for certain that it was a South American country. So anyway, I was googling trying to find some article referring to that but failed to produce anything. However, I did come across this article which suggested that ugliness may be seen as a disability in the USA at some point.

Ugly? You May Have a Case

 

[Balerion]

There is an entire post of mine in response to Bells that is in the moderation queue, apparently.

 

[Balerion]

Actually I was fine with the divorce. But not because of anything to do with this case in particular. I just don't feel it is right to force, legally, anyone to remain married to someone they no longer want to be married to. I do however think it may be reasonable to fine people for getting divorced for frivolous reasons, but then I think we would have a hard time determining which reasons were frivolous. I guess that would be a jury case there. But as you said, the suit was stupid.

This. A thousand times this. Thank you for clarifying that for everyone. Also, thanks for standing up for me earlier in the post. It's difficult when Bells is "on" unless there's someone else there to check her facts.

I do hope my post shows up at some point.

 

[Asguard]

I saw a news documentary many years ago about a particular country that viewed ugliness as a disability and therefore sponsored cosmetic surgery for welfare recipients that were determined to be ugly. I don't remember which country it was but I think it was Argentina. Though it may have been some other South American country. I only know for certain that it was a South American country. So anyway, I was googling trying to find some article referring to that but failed to produce anything. However, I did come across this article which suggested that ugliness may be seen as a disability in the USA at some point.

Ugly? You May Have a Case

Of course its an impediment, there was some research done a while ago about ability to get a job, negotiate loans, negotiate prices and whole heep of other completely non sexual encounters where the same person was given facial alterations to make them look less atractive with no change in income, dress, hygine or any other faciet and there was a huge difference in social ability simply because of the change in facial appearance and this was carried out in Australia where looks are suposed to be unimportant.

When you get to sexual encounters well good luck arguing that looks are irrelivent and people who care about them are shallow. Personally i would say that women or men who go after money are just as shallow as men or women who go after looks. Look at the comments by donald trumps wife when asked if she would have married him if he wasnt as ritch, her come back was "do you think he would have married me if I didnt look like this?"

If looks didnt matter why would internet dating companies include a photo of there clients

 

[Asguard]

This. A thousand times this. Thank you for clarifying that for everyone. Also, thanks for standing up for me earlier in the post. It's difficult when Bells is "on" unless there's someone else there to check her facts.

I do hope my post shows up at some point.

I want to know what bells thinks the often stated "I just dont love you anymore" or "I love you but im not IN love with you" reasons given for divorce (MAINLY by women because women are more likely to file for divorce than men are) is actually about if its not "Im not atracted to you anymore"

 

[Bells]

Bells could you please point out where it says that a women bringing the same case wouldn't get the same result

That's the point, Asguard. "You were ugly once and didn't tell me" should not be a valid reason for a lawsuit.

and as for treating the child as a possession would you like me to dig up your OWN comments about your children being your possessions because you spat them out or Orleanders comments about her right to mutilate her baby boy because he belongs to her?

You still don't get it, do you?

This man rejected his daughter because she was not pretty enough and used the basis of that child's looks to go after his wife for money. Do you understand how craven and pathetic that is?

The case is about deception based on what i have read NOT possession.

Correct.

Now tell me, would you tell your potential spouse if you had an acne problem growing up, because she might sue you if your children develop acne and she never had acne? This is the territory China went into with this case. And it is ridiculous.

The fact that in the west we let people get away with things that if the relationship was corprate we would send them to jail for doesnt mean that is the only way to go. Do I think this situation is right? If it was me, no it wouldnt be right, however I dont live in a culture where you only have one shot at a child and then you only have one shot at a grandchild, I cant imagin the focus that would cause on making sure your child was apsolutly perfect. If we chose we can have 4 kids like my parents did. Its really easy to sit in any other country and judge this but i think your missing the cultural perspective which you would only get if you came from that culture.

I'm sorry, what?

Look at that child's photo and tell me what is not perfect with her.

List them.

China is more focused on having little boys than little girls. How much do you want to bet that if that child had been born a boy, he would not have sued?

And dont forget there are stupid laws in EVERY country, in france a guy was charged AND CONVICTED of not putting out enough (a case there would have been massive OUTRAGE against if it had been a women, "its her body and its her choice if she wants to have sex")

Withholding sex is seen as a reason for divorce.

This guy sued his wife because she was ugly once and didn't tell him apparently.

In Australia we still cant manage to accept that a relationship matters no matter whats between the peoples legs

In the US they cant even manage to sign the international charter on the RIGHTS of the child.

Which has what to do with suing one's spouse because she may or may not have been ugly once and because she did not disclose she had cosmetic surgery?

---

Also, agreed, was that for one hundred grand worth of cosmetic surgery, in another culture, she hid something from her husband. Whether or not someone discloses all their past is irrelevant. Whether they disclose Minor things is irrelevant. The question was more of "Should she have disclosed this?"

If she had withheld information pertinent to their having children, such as a medical condition which could be passed on to the child for example, I could understand his anger.

But this?

As for his comments:

"I married my wife out of love, but as soon as we had our first daughter, we began having marital issues. Our daughter was incredibly ugly, to the point where it horrified me," Jian said.​

I'd just like someone to point out to me what is so horrific about that baby..

No, really. I look at her picture and I can't see what is so horrific about her. At all.

Maybe I am missing something?

As for his wife?

That was worth suing over and actually winning?

Can imagine his reaction.. "AMG my Chinese wife once had Asian eyes.. HOW CAN YOU LIE TO ME ABOUT THIS?!?"..

That the woman disclosed nothing; it hints, suggests... that she did not want it known. She was probably hiding it.
It's also possible that she did not hide it. That it just never came up as a topic.

Either way, I believe she should have told him when it came time for the little talk about the pitter patter of little feet.

So she was hiding that she looked Chinese?

What should she have said?

"My eyes once looked Asian and I had my teeth done?"

Or

"Our Chinese baby might have Asian features that I had removed via cosmetic surgery"...

Perhaps, Bells, you, in providing small and minor examples, also see extensive plastic surgery as minor. Maybe many people would agree. Maybe many people wouldn't let that lead to divorce or a stupid opportunistic lawsuit. Many people might see it as major, not minor. And you don't have the right nor the authority to tell them they must see it as minor. It may be very important to them.

It was apparently important to him to the tune of $120,000. I have to wonder how they came up with that figure..

But looking at her before and after photo, her eyes and teeth were done and possibly minor thinning of the tip of her nose and her overbite fixed. In short, she made herself look more European than Chinese.. Maybe if he wanted to marry a European woman, he should have done so.. Because her after photo is not what typical Chinese women look like at all. Since you know, Chinese women don't have European eyes...

But he did. He's a douche that would. And he won- because she failed to disclose her true status.

That she didn't look European? Yes, that is something that should have been disclosed to the Chinese dude marrying his Chinese wife..

---

I don't think Balerion has expressed any moral outrage towards the woman. All anyone has said is that she should have been upfront about the surgery. No one has said she is a horrible person, deserves jail time or anything like that. All derogatory names have been aimed at the man. But even assholes have rights to know the truth. Even if they will act badly in light of that knowledge. It's also been pointed out that the man also lied about his love for her. Personally, I think if you really love someone and discover they have a secret, even a secret that came back and had a negative affect on you, that love would eventually lead you to forgive, understand, and grow closer to them. IMO, his love for her was superficial or at the very least, not as strong as anyone would ideally hope the love of a man for his wife ought to be.

Certainly, and this case has awarded an arsehole for being an arsehole. What does that tell you?

The reason he did it, what led to the lawsuit was the fact that he thought his baby daughter "horrified him" because she was apparently so ugly..

And I think that is something many people are forgetting here.

Actually, yes. You see I have no teeth. Just before meeting him, I had all my teeth removed because they were brittle and breaking. I have full dentures. I told him this and even sent him a picture of my toothless smile. Because he didn't believe me. Our relationship started from a distance. I wanted him to know this because, although I do have dentures, I figured I wouldn't be able to hide that my teeth were fake forever. They sometimes come dislodged when eating, and of course not taking them out at night can lead to throat irritations. Which means he would eventually be waking up to a toothless faced woman. This could have been horrifying to him. Lucky for me Neverfly, is one that rolls with the punches. but if he were a shallow bastard, I wanted to know before I got emotionally attached to him, So I told him all my dirty little secrets before we even got that serious. As far as minor surgeries go, i have only had 2 c-sections and a tubal ligation. So yeah, I told him about them, especially since the tubal ligation would prevent me from having any other kids and the c-sections created these scars that I could never hide from him. They also affect the way I look naked. For all I knew scars would gross him out and he would be totally turned off by them. I wanted to give him every opportunity to run screaming so that I wouldn't get all emotionally attached only to have him dump me over some dark issue in my life that I could not change. So I disclose for my own benefit, not for his. So I believe the woman was unwise, not evil. And this lack of wisdom blew up in her face. I don't think the guy is a saint at all. I think he is a douche bag. But even douche bags deserve the truth.

Look at her photo above. In short, he sued her because she looked Chinese. Her eyes were not Westernised and her teeth were once not straight.

What the court has done is reward superficiality and being vain. And I think that is a detriment to all of society. Imagine the floodgates this will open.

Well yeah, wouldn't want him to think the sores were herpes.

So you would tell your future spouse if you had an acne problem growing up?

Really?

How does this even come up in conversation?

Probably since they leave scars and he would eventually ask how I got the scars, and I tend to suck at telling stories on the spot.

Ermm.. okay...

I also do not see why anyone would feel they should lie about steps they have taken to feel good about their own appearance. We all do things to alter our appearance, why be ashamed of what we do. I also made sure he knew what I looked like without make up.

Of course we do, but we shouldn't be forced to disclose every little thing to any potential spouse because said spouse might be "horrified" when said child is apparently not pretty enough for their liking.

Where does it end?

"Yes darling, my nails are naturally shiny".. Child is born with normal looking nails "How could you lie to me about this!!".. <<< Is this the point we are heading to? It's insane to me.

That child looks perfect to me. Hardly so horrific that he would demand answers as to her parentage. Children rarely look like their parents and beautiful people don't always have perfect looking babies..

You may have a point here, but braces and cosmetic surgery are not exactly the same thing. Braces usually correct a problem that is more than mere vanity. Usually it corrects problems with speech and being able to chew properly. And braces is something I have heard every young set of new parents consider a high possibility for their kid even if neither parent ever had them. Braces are just too common of a necessity, just like fillings, root canals, or caps. I never had braces and neither of my past husbands ever had braces, but two of my children need them and one even has an overbite, Neither I nor her father have overbites. She just inherited his top jaw and my lower jaw it seems. Btw, she has done modeling even with her overbite.

Plastic surgery is usually referred to as cosmetic surgery because it is for purely cosmetic reasons.

Well her before photo looks like she had an overbite. The one major thing that stands out is that she made her eyes look more European.. Which should have been a big "OH HELLO THERE" for a Chinese man marrying a Chinese woman. Had he not seen her parents or relatives and noticed that they were not European?

 

[Balerion]

Can a moderator please release my post? Apparently the mod going on a rampage here can't be bothered.

 

[Neverfly]

Wow, Bells. That's a long post and at this point, I know better than to engage you when you're in sniper mode. I will simply focus on one part of your post:

You still don't get it, do you?

You say this a lot. Far more often than one should.

Usually, when you're 'outraged' over some moral stance you find, "appalling."

You fully believe that you're correct and that anyone that disagrees with you is incorrect. Your 'morals are absolute.'

I find that very interesting.

The gist over the course of the post was one of endearing condescension. "Oh these silly fools. They are so wrong and they just don't get it."

No, Your Majesty. Not everything is so black and white. There are shades and opinions and different subjective viewpoints on a topic such as this. Your desire to dominate over all others makes discussion impossible. Speaking of appalling. It takes what's interesting out of the forum. It reduces it to long drawn out multi-quote posts that are rendered worthless for reading.

I'm sure you responded to things I said in my posts with Opinionated Charm. I really don't give a damn. I don't care what you said or how confident you are that you really put me in my place. I don't care about your witty comebacks.
I'll bow out of this discussion and let others enjoy the Battle Of The Bells. It's just not worth pandering to your ego over it.

They get it. They just don't agree with you.

 

[Asguard]

nice try at a deflection there bells, Did I say she divorced him or did I say she had him CHARGED with failing to put out?

Not tonight, Monique! Frenchman ordered to pay ex-wife £9,000 for not having sex after marriage



By Tim Finan
UPDATED: 09:11 GMT, 7 September 2011


Comments (29)
Share





.
.

A reluctant husband has been sued for £9,000 by his wife for failing to have sex with her for 'a period of several years'.


The 51-year-old Frenchman, named only as Jean-Louis, neglected his matrimonial duties to wife Monique in Nice, who sued him for 10,000 euros (£8,700) and took her divorce case to an Appeal Court.


The court in Aix-en-Provence heard that the couple had been married for 21 years and raised two children on the French Riviera.





Not tonight thanks: The unidentified French man was sued by his wife for failing to make love to her (picture posed by models)

But the strains of work and illness prevented Jean-Louis from fulfilling his matrimonial duties, his advocate pleaded.


Announcing her decision the judge quoted the French civil and penal code, which requires both parties in a marriage to respect ‘lifelong community’ requiring them by law to have sexual relations.


Whereas sexual abstinence in a couple, together with violence and infidelity, are cited regularly in hundreds of divorce claims in France, it is extremely rare for a husband or wife to pay financial damages for specifically failing to satisfy sexually.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-B-pays-9-000-damages-lack-sex-marriage.html

Oh and trust me, PB knows that I had Acne because both my father and I are those unlucky types who STILL have it

 

[seagypsy]

Bells, calm down. You are blowing things way out of proportion and not able to see what we are actually saying. Legally speaking, she deceived him. She is guilty of that. It doesn't matter how innocent her motives may have been. If you do something like buy a used tv from someone at a yard sale. Two days later the police show up at your house and arrest you for receiving stolen property. You didn't know it was stolen, you didn't intend to receive stolen property. But you did. And the way the law is written, at least in the USA, is your ignorance of the facts don't matter. You received the stolen property and therefore you are guilty of receiving stolen property. In case you don't see how the analogy plays out I'll clarify

Do something that is perfectly legal = get plastic surgery = buy a used tv
Be unaware of the action being perceived as an offensive one = unaware that it would be see as deception by a future spouse = unaware that the item is stolen and so the act was illegal

When action is noticed, get legally sanctioned for it= get sued for the deception = go to jail for receiving stolen goods.

So it doesn't matter really if we like the verdict or not. She deceived him. Withholding information is often interpreted as deception. Just ask the immigration office. If you knowingly fail to disclose something it is treated, legally, as intentional deception/fraud.

What if someone wore make up to make them look like another race? Would that bother you if your date was pretending to black and passing himself off as black, only to find out he was Indian? You are not racist, you may even find Indian men freaking hot, but to be lied to would likely piss you off. When we are lied to we feel insulted. When we are lied to by someone we love hurts that much more. Granted, as we all have said many many times in spite of your refusal to acknowledge it, we have all said the guy is an asshole and that none of us agree with the cash award.

You just don't get it, do you?

We all have expressed the opinion that the guy is a douche bag, an asshole, a prick, a bad father etc. Not one of us except wynn, and only as sarcasm, has called the woman any derogatory names. We have expressed sympathy for her. Sympathy for her in spite of the fact we feel she should have told him.

So please stop berating us all for liking the guy. We don't. We have all clearly stated that. We have only stated that she is guilty of not telling him. Unless you can provide a link to a source that claims she DID tell him, then you have no grounds to bash us for acknowledging that she did not tell him. And we are entitled to our opinions that she should have, just as you are certainly entitled to your differing opinion, clearly from a totally different perspective.

It is not fair that you are insinuating that we are somehow immoral monsters simply because we do not share your point of view and taking it further to insist we have said things and taken positions that we have not.

You may notice that in this thread, your only ally is wynn. That should tell you something.

 

[Balerion]

Well, since Bells can't be bothered to allow my post in from the queue, I'll just do it again, sans the offending link (which was just a link to another thread, but apparently that sometimes--not all the time--knocks posts into the queue) and hope that I don't get a double-post.

I'll try to make it as true to the original as I can.

Speaking of moral outrage. Why are you so morally outraged at this woman? Why are you defending a man who sued a woman because he thinks his baby daughter is too ugly?

Two problems: First, I'm not morally outraged by this woman. The only person who has displayed outrage here is you. Well, you and wynn, though wynn's effort may have been some misguided attempt at sarcasm, so who knows. In either event, I wasn't the one who said the discussion was appalling. That was you, remember? Also, I'm not defending him. As I said in post 21--which I won't link to, since that's apparently a no-no due to spam-chasing software:

Now, is suing your wife over how ugly your kid looks sane and normal behavior? Clearly not.

So, obviously I'm not in favor of his lawsuit. But apparently he had legal recourse, and he won.

This fuckwit sued his wife because he thought his daughter was ugly.

And you think this is acceptable? Really?

No, he sued because his wife lied to him. And again, if you had bothered to read anything I've written, I don't agree with suing. I simply said that she should have told him.

Is this a new standard for divorce in China?

I don't know what the laws are in China, but are you saying that he shouldn't be able to divorce her for whatever damn reason he pleases?

It is quite possible that the child got her looks from his side of the family or from one or both of their ancestors. Look at that child's photo. If she looks like her mother when her mother was that age, you know, pre-plastic surgery and before the mother grew up, you think that child has a face that should cause a father to sue his wife over? Really Balerion?

Really, Bells? That's not why he sued. He sued because she lied.

Since the article is not clear, the cosmetic surgery could have involved things like a boob job, pinning back ears, teeth.. no where does it say that she was ugly beforehand. No where. And keep in mind that she would have paid out of pocket for this, so yes, even minor things like bracers, which can cost in excess of $15000 or getting caps, which can cost more, could and would count towards "cosmetic surgery". She could have had her ears pinned back, which many people do get, which could have run into the thousands of dollars. The article also does not say when and how the cosmetic surgery occurred. Did it start from childhood (such as pinning back her ears for example), from when she was a teenager (pimple scars is another example)... Was the $100,000 in one go or accumulative over a period of years from childhood into adulthood for example? Do you tell your potential spouse everything you have ever had done? Do you show her before and after photos because of how the baby may look one day in the future? Do you disclose if you had bracers, for example? How about if you had pimples?

Well, you have since shown us a picture, and clearly she has had more work done that just acne scar removal or braces (braces are medical here in the US, not cosmetic, so it's not a given that braces would even count towards the bill in China), and that's the point. She had enough work done to look like a totally different person (You've said she looks European, which is freaking absurd, don't believe that you honestly think that) and should have been forthcoming about it. If he didn't know, it's because she kept it from him.

So you are implying that this woman was apparently ugly enough to be sued because her husband felt that their child was ugly?

Obviously not. Her looks have nothing to do with this at all.

Show me where in that article or find me proof that this woman was so ugly to begin with and then we can discuss your moral outrage.

Well, you sure have it now. But show me where her unattractiveness mattered, either to my argument or in the court proceedings.

He felt lied to?

He was lied to.

How about the lies he spouted to her in his wedding vows? Aww, poor man, his baby isn't what he wanted it to be or look like he wanted it to look like, so he sued her.

He sued her because he found out she lied to him about a hundred thousand dollars of plastic surgery. Those vows were built on a presumed foundation of trust and honesty, neither of which were displayed by this woman.

What a shame she couldn't counter sue him for being an arsehole for suing because he didn't like how his daughter looked.

Well, I can't argue against that. The guy raising hell over his daughter is clearly a douche. But then again, maybe if you told me I'd have to pay huge fines to have a second child, maybe I"d want to make sure I got the first one right, too.

Show me where in that article does it say she had her whole face re-done. For all you know she may have had an accident in her past or done minor things like pin back her ears and teeth for example. Hardly things that one would feel one would have to disclose to one's potential spouse.

Moot point, given the photo evidence you provided. She's not even the same person in the pictures.

But tell me Balerion, since when did one have to disclose one's looks in the past to any potential spouse? Did he not see any photos of her as a child, for example? He never visited her family and seen her photos from when she was young?

Who said anything about disclosing looks? We're talking about disclosing the fact that she had a hundred G's worth of elective cosmetic surgery. You honestly can't see the difference here? I sincerely doubt that. Your man-hate is overriding your critical brain, Bells.

As for how he never knew what she looked like previously, I don't know. But it comes to me that someone narcissistic enough to hack their faces to bits to the tune of a hundred thousand dollars probably did their best to make sure old photos were never seen again.

Imagine the level of dishonesty it would take to sue your wife because you thought your daughter was ugly.

I know you're trying to turn my words back around me, but that only works if they apply both ways. Sadly, that's not the case here. What role would dishonesty play in suing one's wife over the fact that she lied to him? Hell, even if your intentional misrepresentation were correct, and she were being sued for making an ugly baby, I don't see what's dishonest about that. Creepy, sure. Scummy, no doubt. Dishonest? Actually, that strikes me as a pretty honest thing to do.

You appear to be more morally outraged than anyone else in this thread because you seem to believe in your mind that this woman was ugly to begin with.

I never once said she was ugly. Well, I mean, now I have, since you posted the picture, but I never said she was ugly once. But you knew that, and are lying to support your point, because apparently you're allwoed to do that. I never said it, because I didn't know, and it didn't matter. All that mattered is that she lied.

How vain and narcissistic are you? Do you ask your girlfriends if she has had any work done or any cosmetic surgery because you are afraid that you may have an ugly child?

No, of course not. But if my girlfriend had a hundred G's worth of it before we met, I'd sure like to know.

Now show me where and how this woman was ugly before her surgery.

Show me where I ever said it mattered.

 

[wynn]

I saw a news documentary many years ago about a particular country that viewed ugliness as a disability and therefore sponsored cosmetic surgery for welfare recipients that were determined to be ugly. I don't remember which country it was but I think it was Argentina. Though it may have been some other South American country. I only know for certain that it was a South American country. So anyway, I was googling trying to find some article referring to that but failed to produce anything. However, I did come across this article which suggested that ugliness may be seen as a disability in the USA at some point.

Ugly? You May Have a Case

The story in Johnny Handsome is didactic on this point.

The man started out with a disfigured face; became a criminal; went through a rehab program in jail that also gave him a new, handsome face; after release from jail, got back to his criminal lifestyle; got beaten up over and over; so he ended up with a disfigured face - again.

 

[wynn]

That is a dramatic change. I wonder how she is coping with it.

I think that a person undergoing such a dramatic change of their appearance will have a tough time coping with it, even if it is a change for "the better."
I imagine she could be feeling like a fake and hate herself, which could impede her judgment on whom to associate with in terms of friendship and marriage, and how she approaches relationships.

 

[Neverfly]

Her ears look a little odd to me. You can see the work done around the nose/nostrils. Her jawline was sculpted. The image is suggestive of extensive work around the eyes, though they retain the almond shape and Mongolian fold, they've been rounded. Make up is absent in the first photo but present in the second. The eye make up is a bit pronounced, so it may alter the image- it would be better if the 'after' photo was also without make up.
The nose and jawline show quite a bit of work, though. Looks like a little nip and tuck around the neck area immediately below the jaw.