It must take a considerable amount of self-loathing to undergo such a drastic change in the first place, so I don't see how the surgeries themselves would be the cause. They might make her feel more confident, but I doubt she was ever happy.
Man divorces & sues wife for being ugly, wins
- Thread starter KilljoyKlown
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It must take a considerable amount of self-loathing to undergo such a drastic change in the first place, so I don't see how the surgeries themselves would be the cause. They might make her feel more confident, but I doubt she was ever happy.
And if she hadn't lost, you'd think she hadn't lied?
How much has the outcome of trial affected your view of her intentions?
The general assumption on your side seems to be that she had malicious intent for not disclosing she had cosmetic surgery.
I don't see how this can be proven, given what we know of the case so far.
In my opinion, the change of appearance that she had undergone, is so dramatic that it seems impossible to disclose it in an easy way.
I can't imagine how someone would go about disclosing something like that about themselves. "I was in prison for manslaughter" may be easier than that.
It would take a person of great cognitive and moral strength to disclose such a change of appearance.
And, arguably, a person of such great cognitive and moral strength wouldn't have the surgery to begin with.
Given that the cosmetic surgery had cost so much, it may have been payed for by her family or other interested party. So this woman was possibly under a lot of pressure from these people.
I agree that it must take a considerable amount of self-loathing to undergo such a drastic change in the first place. But once such a change is done, the self-loathing can become a permanent characteristic of one's person, as the changed face is a permanent reminder of that self-loathing.
Some women, after undergoing cosmetic surgery, are very disappointed with themselves afterward, feeling like they have betrayed themselves. So the cosmetic surgery, even if it is "successful", can be just added trauma.
It could also be that the surgeries were sort of forced on her. If her parents were embarrassed by her appearance they may have pressured her into the surgeries. But then she looks like an adult in the "before" picture. I don't know how much influence parents may have on their adult children there.
I do know of a guy in England, I mean I know him personally, that his mother decided when he was a little boy that she wanted a daughter instead of a son, even after having raised him as the boy that he was up until that point. So before puberty set in they found a dirty gender reassignment doctor that had an agenda to prove nature vs nurture argument that nurture determines sexuality. And this doctor then put him on hormones before he hit puberty and had every intention of changing him into a woman once he reached the age of 21. but although his skeleton developed as a female skeleton in regards to size and shape and he had fat in all the right places, he still dug females and identified as a lesbian. Then one day he had sex with a woman using his original equipment and decided against having it removed. Went off the hormones and his body just disintegrated into a thin wisp of a person. He at the age of 28 looked like Eustace from Courage the cowardly dog. Needless to say this guy is thoroughly messed up in the head now. His mom has gone senile and his father is drinking himself to death. The point is, sometimes wacko parents think they are doing some good thing, and force something insane on their kids. I don't know if that is likely in this woman's case though. But something to consider.
There is a lot of psychology to take into consideration when someone will get so much work done. But at risk of sounding cruel, she wasn't pretty, she did what she felt she needed to do to fix it. I don't see anything wrong with that. She didn't do any radical surgery, like make herself look like a cat or anything. She seems to have just wanted to look better. and she certainly did. That does not negate the need to be open and honest with a potential mate. You would think it would have come up as part of revealing who you are. If it were me, and i was sharing with a potential partner, I would open up(as I have with Neverfly on a regular basis) and share my pain with him as much as I would want to think they would feel safe sharing their pain with me. That's part of what being married is all about.
thats horific, why were his parents never charged with child abuse because thats exactly what that is
True, I'm thinking of that case where a botched circumcision led to a boy being transformed into a girl in order to cope with the ummm burning off of his member.
Needless to say, the gender reassignment did not take and it caused the boy a great deal of trauma.
He eventually recovered his manhood, married a good women and happily ever 3 years. But his life had been hell all the way into adulthood.
The parents were not entirely to blame, however. Perhaps naive- they had been misled and pressured into these actions by a doctor that fancied himself an expert on Gender Science and he was wrong about his fundamental beliefs.
Edit to add: I went to look for the story and a quick wiki was the first hit. I read the story years ago...
Since then, life did life.
Sadly, he ended up a victim of suicide and his marriage had not gone well, in the end:
Story of Reimer:
http://www.shb-info.org/reimer3.html
http://reason.com/archives/2004/05/24/the-death-of-david-reimer
The wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
ETA 2: The original I had read was called, "As Nature Made Him:The Boy Who Was Raised As a Girl." It featured in Rolling Stone.
I haven't seen anyone suggest that the intent was malicious. She was probably embarrassed or afraid to tell him because he may leave her. Maybe he had given hints that he was shallow. Maybe her self esteem was low in spite of her current beauty and she was reasonably afraid he would leave. And feared that she wouldn't easily find another guy. Think about all the pretty women out there who for some unknown reason feel they are ugly so they fall for any asshole that says he loves her. Then they put up with abuse, cheating, general unhappiness because they believe they are ugly and therefor believe they can't find better.
Intent is just intent. It seems likely that she intentionally kept the info from him. And whether she had good reason or not is irrelevant. It is dishonest and that is why the court had to side with the plaintiff. I still can't for the life of me figure out why they would award him money though. Divorce is the only thing I would have awarded if I was the judge. and the guy would have gotten his divorce with a long harsh lecture about what an ass he is.
Agreed. But being hard to disclose doesn't make any less important to do so. Imagine if someone with AIDS failed to disclose because it was hard. How does someone bring that up to a potential date? "Oh I'd love to go out with you, but as long as you understand that I have AIDS. So what time should I expect you to pick me up?" or worse, wait until just before sex is about to happen, " oh baby i love you so much I have been looking forward to this moment, btw, I am legally required to tell you that I have aids. now get that condom on cuz i'm raring to go!" yeah ok.. is there EVER a perfect time to disclose dark secrets? No there isn't, so you just need to buck up and deal with the life you have been given. If the guy runs, consider it a bullet dodged. Who wants to end up with someone who would put restrictions on their love that you would constantly have to dance around to keep them from leaving.
Your right, after i posted that i thought about it and it was actually all THREE who should have been charged.
How is this concidered to be in complience with the convention on the rights of the child and if this was england how the hell didnt this end up in the Europian human rights commission
I asked him that, but he never gave me a clear answer. He believes that the world hates him, including the magistrate. apparently at one point he was assaulted on the street (this is when he was living as a female and still on hormones) and stabbed but the police did nothing to pursue the attackers and even gave him a ticket for being out late after he got out of the hospital. He said they made "tranny" jokes at him in the ambulance even. He is pretty disenfranchised to say the least.
I agree and he has fought on occasion but I am in USA and he is in UK. I don't have a clue how to approach things like that and any female who is nice to him, he falls in love with, and when they don't reciprocate that love as he thinks they should, he goes into his shell and hides from the world. Calls everyone sheeple and writes the world off as if it is against him. he has plenty of mental issues to contend with that impede his ability to get help. As I said, any female that is nice gets ran off by his strong advances and any male is ran off just for being male. He is reminiscent of the woman who was abused by a man and now hates all men and doesn't see them as anything more than the enemy. And the last contact I had with him, he was acting the same way towards women.
ETA: I should note that the doctor did get charged with some crime. I don't know what the actual crime was but he was charged, made to serve jail time and of course lost his license to practice medicine. But he wasn't charged in this guys case in particular. Apparently he did some underaged gender reassignment therapy on 7 other boys in UK during that time. Those boys were the source of the charges. Some of them are dead today due to suicide. As far as I know the guy I know is still alive.
Not surpring sadly, a friend is in a similar though less extreme boat. Hes gay and is effectivily being abused by his psycologist (one day she told him that if he ever adopted a child the child would grow up to hate him and want to kill him because it didnt have a mum and a dad, another time he was told that the reason he is depressed is that hes gay and gays just have meaningless sex so he will never find a true boyfriend and be alone all his life), but he wont let us help him, he wont tell us her name so we can report her so my partner spends all her sat (after he has just come from the psycologist) undoing the damage she has done (when he should be at his most optimistic) and trying to keep him stable and because of this he cycles between admiting hes gay, dening it (even though he IS) and claiming to be asexual because if its his choice then its ok hes alone (when the reason hes alone is he wont put himself out there, he would get snapped up in 2 seconds because he is a wonderful person if a little squealy) It rips out her heart and mine too but there is nothing you can do sometimes
If you two can find out, at least, where the office is that he goes to, you may be able to narrow down which doctor it is. Then if you can just find someone who would be willing to pretend to need therapy for depression and claim to be gay, or another gay male friend, they can get an appointment, then sneak a tape recorder into the sessions and record what is said. Then if she says shit like that to your actor, the tape can be handed over to a journalist which will bust her chops real good. Sometimes the press can do more damage than the courts can.
From the beginning of this thread, several posters have accused her of lying.
This is the main point of contention in this thread.
Unless it can actually be proven that she had malicious intent, and/or that she gave false information about herself, she can't be accused of lying.
She could be said to be guilty of not setting straight a lust-stricken man; she could be said to be guilty of being naive. But so far, she can't be accused of lying.
Sure.
But now that we've seen what she looks like after the cosmetic surgery, I think it would be grossly naive for anyone to still think her a natural beauty. A face like that seems like a racial/biological impossibility. Just seeing her should be a clue.
When you see a woman with fiery red hair, you probably think that she's not a natural redhead; or if you see a blonde woman with brown eyes and dark skin, the reasonable conclusion is that she probably isn't a natural blonde.
When I see an Asian with such big eyes and such a small mouth, I think "surgery."
Another main point of contention is whose responsibility it is that potentially controversial information be disclosed.
Your side argues that it's better not to ask, and just go on faith and hope that the other person will tell things about themselves that could affect oneself.
I think it's better to take responsibility and inquire. It is one's life that is at stake, and one ought to protect it as much as possible. Which means specifying what kind of information needs to be sought, and then seeking it. This doesn't automatically require any rude, extensive interrogation.
(I read a novel once (not in English), taking place in late 19th century, with a good didactic point. Part of the plot was that a mother had pushed a young girl to marry a man the family was impressed with, but whom they didn't know much about, they've only known him for a couple of days. The girl's father suggested that they go through with a proper engagement (which would take about a year) and get to know the man better and his family. The mother, however, was against that, insisted that the girl should marry as soon as possible, that it is bad to suspect people and try to get information about them, and that she probably would never had another opportunity to marry, and her life would be lost and wasted if she wouldn't marry. The mother's insistence was so strong that she prevailed. The girl married the man, and soon after that found out he was a drunkard, a gambler, in debt and with a host of other problems. Much of which she could learn about long before the wedding, if she only went through with her father's suggestion. Once she married, it was too late.)
Then there is the issue of why one wishes to marry, what the guiding motivation is. If one is motivated by lust, then one ought to prepare for rough deals.
I love that you think that's what lying is. To you, you're not lying unless someone asks you, or you actually tell them something other than what's the truth. I don't know, maybe it's because I was raised well, but I've understood since I was a child that withholding the truth is just as much of a lie as an actual untruth. I had thought everyone was aware of this, but you've shown me otherwise.
Well, the rest of us don't glean our experience in relationships from novels, and actually go out there and live the real thing. We can tell you from experience that you're full of crap. I mean, it should be obvious, given how ludicrous the proposition of "If you can't think to ask, it's your fault for not knowing" is, but I guess not. Well, let me rephrase: It is obvious to just about everyone, but there will be the occasional few who can't seem to grasp it.
She didn't lose, meaning it wasn't just the husband's claim that she didn't tell him, but a matter of public record.
I don't know what makes you think something isn't a lie unless there's malicious intent. That's absurd.
That wouldn't excuse the lie, it would just be a contributing factor, speaking to her troubled mental state. You still have to own up and tell the truth. It's still a choice.
Bells
Staff member
Speaking of sniping..
I responded to a post. If you have a problem with how I worded it, you are free to PM Tiassa with your complaint since he is the moderator of this thread.
My point was simple. I understand if you are unable to read a long post. But if you are going to try and insult me, at least do it properly instead of a half arsed attempt to pick a fight like you currently are and then try and claim that you don't want to. I understand that you are offended at how I worded that to Asguard, but keep in mind that Asguard decided to insult and abuse my apparent parenting style in his first response to me in this thread and my comment to him was directed at that, a charge that he has thrown at me several times now and harks back to a time and place that did not involve you at all.
When I said "you still don't get that part", I am focusing on a particular point that people seem to over look. At no time am I calling people stupid or insulting their intelligence.
So if you want to pick a fight with me? I'm sorry Neverfly, I am not interested.
I would suggest you PM Tiassa since he is the moderator of this sub-forum and I have no power or ability to clear your post that may or may not be in a mod queue. I can't even view the mod queue for this sub-forum. So please, cease and desist in accusing me of some sort of weird conspiracy that I have somehow or other hidden your posts.Balerion said:
AS to the rampage.. I forgot that as soon as someone disagrees with you, they are on a rampage..
I cannot even see your post if it is in the mod queue or not Balerion.
Again, I do not moderate this sub-forum. When I post here I post as a member.
So can you please cease and desist in accusing me of not allowing your posts in this thread. I don't really appreciate it, nor would I ever resort to such tactics.
I understand that. I actually am not outraged.
I'm just in a very bad mood at the moment and it may be seeping through in how I post at the moment.
And that bad mood has nothing to do with this thread or anyone in it, so relax with the accusation that I am having some sort of 'moment' about this thread.
My point is that I disagree with this court's ruling.
Like you, I find this man's reasons for his lawsuit to be frivolous, selfish and down right idiotic.
Now to the point of deception and her having hidden her plastic surgery from him.
I can understand your point Balerion (as well as others who agree that it is deception). I do not disagree with that or that she failed to disclose that she had altered her appearance before she met him.
What I am questioning is this court finding that her failing to disclose that she had domestic surgery is worth suing and awarding damages.
I am looking at what led him to sue her. It appears that a series of events occurred.. The first being the birth of their daughter who was apparently so ugly in his opinion that he felt his sperm could not have been involved in making the child and he accused her of cheating. We can assume that is when she told him that she had had surgery before she met him. And so, he sued her for deceiving him. Fine.. But take a step back and look at why he was suing her. Taking aside the deception, at its heart, he was suing her because she was not beautiful naturally. In short, he is pissed off that she was not naturally beautiful in his eyes. And I think any court that accepts that as a valid reason is opening itself up to so many ridiculous possibilities and it places even more stress and strain on a culture that seems to value beauty above all else..
I get that she failed to disclose her surgery. But the basis of his lawsuit because of that failure to disclose comes down to her looks..
I guess there is a reason why this made the news. Because it is so ridiculous and so far from what should have happened (ie the case be thrown out) that it stands out like a sore thumb, and so, the world media have picked up on this story.
What I am trying to say is that this kind of lawsuit should not exist. In short, he should not have had the legal recourse available because it goes solely to how someone looks physically, if that makes sense?
Oh no, not at all.
What I think is that to have this kind of legal recourse available and a precedent of this type.. It is insane.
Suing because in effect, she did not tell him that she apparently wasn't naturally beautiful? He shouldn't have the recourse to claim money for that.
I am very curious as to how the court came up with that figure. Time lost in the marriage? How much he may have spent on the wedding and the shared cost of living as a married couple?
I mean suing because she didn't tell him she wasn't pretty naturally and had surgery to make herself pretty enough for someone like him.. That to me speaks of a legal system gone mad.
He sued because she did not disclose her surgery and that she was apparently not beautiful naturally.
Or that is the excuse he used.
He felt that she had somehow gotten him to marry her under false pretenses. So the judge agreed that she lied about her looks before the surgery in failing to disclose it and thus, awarded him the money. In short, the court felt that she had misled him and somehow allowed him to believe that she was beautiful when she apparently was not and this beauty of hers convinced him to marry her.
The surgery she had, the eyelid surgery is actually quite common and the reason appears to point towards a desire for a more Western 'look'..
Can I ask you a question Balerion.
Why do you think she should have told him about her cosmetic surgery to alter her looks?
I am curious as to your reasons why..
It had enough to do with the case which led him to sue her after their baby was apparently born ugly and he accused her of cheating..
The basis of his lawsuit is that she had failed to disclose cosmetic surgery - in short, she had failed to tell him that she was not as beautiful as she was then in the past and that she changed how she had looked, thereby allowing him to believe she was pretty to his standards when her apparent previous looks were not to his standards.
This guy divorced her and then sued her for apparently convincing him to marry her under false pretenses... In short, she convinced him she was pretty when she apparently was not as far as he was concerned. So I think it has quite a bit to do with her actual looks.
I believe the part where he claimed that she convinced him to marry her under false pretenses shows that her looks mattered - and the fact that he divorced her after the birth of a baby he felt was so ugly he was horrified by her looks and also by the fact that he divorced her after she disclosed how she had looked prior to the cosmetic surgery.
The judge awarded him the money because he felt that she had convinced him to marry her under false pretenses..
Feng immediately suspected his wife of having an affair, incredulous at the possibility that he could have spawned such an offspring.
His wife was forced to confess that before her marriage, she had spent £60,000 on plastic surgery in South Korea, and looked completely different to how she was born.
The judge agreed that Feng's wife had indeed deceived him into marriage under false pretences, and awarded him compensation.
His wife was forced to confess that before her marriage, she had spent £60,000 on plastic surgery in South Korea, and looked completely different to how she was born.
The judge agreed that Feng's wife had indeed deceived him into marriage under false pretences, and awarded him compensation.
So this is you not supporting this guy's reasons?
Interesting..
He sued her after he divorced her because he felt that she had deceived him into marriage under false pretences.. Ie, she led him to believe she was born beautiful..
Interesting..
Now tell me what is not right about that child.
After all, you just made the comment that you'd want the child to be "right". The child's photo is on the first page of this thread. I am sure you are able to list what is not right about that child.
And it is one child per couple in China.
Eyelid surgery and enhancing the tip of her nose and dental work. And she has drawn on darker eyebrows. Her lips and their shape is the same, as is everything else.
It's just her eyes that are the stand out feature.
Can you stop with the ridiculous accusations?
No, really.
Enough is enough already.
First you accuse me, repeatedly, of apparently withholding your post, then you accuse me of apparently getting caught up in this (I've only had about what? 3 - 4 posts in a thread that is around 5 pages long) and now you accuse me of being a man hater who is apparently losing brain cells.
Enough.
Stop.
If you can't debate my points, accusing me of being a 'man hater' is silly and childish. So enough.
Now, you keep saying that he sued her because she had the surgery. But why did she have the surgery and what led him to want to sue in the first place?
Have you not read the story in the OP?
Did you fail to notice the chain of events that led to his divorcing her and then suing her? Did you fail to do even a google search about this story and how he sued her because he felt that she had apparently convinced him to marry her under false pretenses?
What do you think the false pretenses are? (I'll give you a hint.. the whole "Chinese man sues wife for being ugly" is a good indication)..
Right..
Just as you aren't defending him and you don't think he is right about his daughter, while saying "But then again, maybe if you told me I'd have to pay huge fines to have a second child, maybe I"d want to make sure I got the first one right, too."...
I see....
Of course, when you say "I"d want to make sure I got the first one right, too.", you aren't saying the child is somehow ugly or that there is something wrong with it, are you?
Why?
Well you seem to believe she should have told him about it, so it must matter. Hell, look at your comment right above about how you would like to have known about it.. So it must matter somewhat to you. After all, if you don't care or it didn't matter, why would you like to know?
And now, I bid thee farewell. I am having surgery the day after tomorrow so I won't be back for a long while most probably. I may pop in tomorrow to double check a few things, but yeah.. back to round one again it seems.. I shall hopefully return in a few weeks if all goes well.. So when I don't post again, it's not because I am running away from the discussion.
Take care of yourselves.
Seagypsy, I would have responded to you, but I don't have much time left before I have to go and I have to finalise a few things in my real life.. So my apologies..
The one who needs to relax is you. Don't drag your personal stuff into the thread.
You can't set aside the deception, because that's the crux of the lawsuit. He couldn't sue if he just one day decided she was no longer pretty enough for him. The behavior that lead to the lawsuit was the deception. You can say whatever you like about how crummy this guy is for it, but the only relevant point to the legal proceeding is that she lied. So it isn't that she wasn't pretty enough, it's that she deceived him about what she looked like. That's a pretty big deal, I would say.
I think the story was picked up was because it made for easy headlines: "Man dumps wife over ugly baby."
But it doesn't go solely on how someone looks physically. It goes solely on the fact that she deceived him about her looks by not telling him that the face she was presenting to him was not her own.
Not in effect. She did not tell him that this is not what she really looked like. It wouldn't have mattered if she was naturally beautiful prior to the work, what mattered is that her face now isn't the one she was born with.
No clue. Interesting question, though.
But that's not what it was.
Leave out the bold part, and you've got it.
Or that she had convinced him that this is what she looks like naturally when it is in fact not what she looks like naturally. Beauty is subjective, so I sincerely doubt that it ever entered into the ruling. The pertinent information was that Face A was not her true face.
More western, maybe, but not actually western.
Because she doesn't really look like that, and I would want to know. Imagine if instead of surgery, we were talking about a woman wearing a very lifelike mask. Let's say the the mask is so lifelike that the partner doesn't know. Do you honestly think that it's not important that the wearer tells their partner it is in fact a mask and not their true face?
Yeah, because he thought the kid wasn't his.
You had it right before you put it "in short" and completely misconstrued it. You keep putting that out there, but it's inaccurate.
Same goes here. You're right on target before the misleading "In short."
I won't say looks didn't matter, but the important part is that she lied. That's the relevant aspect to the legal case.
I'm not saying he isn't a douche for suing her or complaining about his kid's looks, but I don't blame him for leaving. I've made that clear. The woman lied to him, and I can't blame him for divorcing her.
I'm not the one who said there was anything wrong with it. Ask the father.
And her jaw, and her cheeks, but you know, we'll just ignore that, apparently...
No, that's not how this works. You come in here spitting venom, and now that you've been called on it, you take offense? Grow up.
No, really.
Grow.
Up.
Not relevant to the court case, which is what you seem to disagree with me about.
What are you talking about? Nothing I've said disagrees with the article.
No, that's a headline, which is often misleading. You're trying to argue from emotion, but it can't stand up against the facts.
Again, intentionally twisting words. This is how you operate, so I'm not surprised, but it is rather annoying. Enough. I never said there was anything wrong with the child, but he obviously did.
Not to me, but to him there obviously was.
Because that's not her real face. If she were wearing a mask, I'd want to know what's underneath. If she were wearing a sheet, I'd ask her to take it off. Do you not understand what kind of narcissism is required to get that much elective surgery? What kind dishonesty and delusion is required to not tell your husband about it? To me, the lying would be indicative of a much larger problem.
Did I ever say that I would break up with someone for having surgery? I'd also want to know about my girlfriend's credit rating, but a poor one doesn't mean I'd break up with her. Isn't knowing someone important to you? Isn't honesty important to you?