Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:I seem to recall you saying that if someone is raped for not covering up they deserve it. I consider rape abusive

Here is the quote you are referring to:
"You know what? If a western woman leaves her home country for any of these places insisting on bearing her flesh though warned then the stupid wench deserves whatever she gets." If you read this and narrow it down to meaning all women deserve to be raped than that is your problem. I am saying, as I have stated before, that I have no SYMPATHY for any adult who does not exercise judgement and caution. Just like I have no sympathy for adverturous tourists who venture off the beaten track when there are signs posted saying DANGER LAND MINES!!!

Quote:That's beside the point. Why is it okay within national borders but not across borders? Would it be okay for the U.S. to influence Mexico or Canada? How about California influencing New York? Is your 'hands off' policy based upon culture or national sovereignty? What about State sovereignty? You're the one asserting that there are situations when it's appropriate to get involved and others where it's not, how do you determine where and when it's okay or not okay?

Influening is one thing and all cultures influence one another, I am not building an argument against that. What I am saying is that there is a difference between influence and force which is implied when one is speaking about changing the dynamics within a culture where the participants do not deem anything wrong or there is an overwhelming stance against change. I believe that the 'abuses' you speak of (and I am not referring here to the malaysian law because it is petty and childish to call it an abuse) will change naturally over time and from within.

Quote:This is a good point. I would think that exposure of the issues and education would be primary. Perhaps funding what rights groups do exist. How about establishing underground railroads?

They exist. The exposure of the issues and education IS primary but there are limitations to this. Remember when I mentioned Madhayam and All India Radio? I had worked with Madhayam as part of a Media Center internship while living in India. Madhayam produced all sorts of materials for villages where literacy for women were deemed unimportant and helped develop an agency independent of police were women could call when being abused by their husbands. They had set up a housing center to help protect the women etc. Guess what the problem was? Getting women to call the number. Female activists in India are very dynamic, very educated and very very strong. They are combating POVERTY they are combating AGE OLE RELIGIOUS NOTIONS. How do you prioritize teaching a girl to read when the family cannot afford basic necessities of life ie: clean water, food, health care?
These issues are not simply ideological but economical. How do you deal with the economy when the the country is overpopulated? How do you deal with overpopulation when women have no access to birth control? How do you deal with birth control when households need as many children as possible to ensure income (extra hands)? From your posts I read the assumption (though I am not saying this is the case) that these cultural differences can be handled if they only 'knew' what we 'knew'. If they only valued what we valued then they would no that this is good and that is bad, well frankly there are too many complexities, changing one value in a society tends to unravel others, there are some values, like sexual promiscuity outside of marriage, the role of women, dress code, that may not NEED changing. Just because someone from the west believes it is okay for a girl of sixteen to walk down the street in a booty short and tube top does not mean it will be deemed so in another culture. Just because someone from the west believes it is okay for a 16 year old girl to have a boyfriend does not meen it will be deemed so in another and they will fight you on that one. I have had loads of conversations with educated Indian women and a few with cambodian women about arranged marriages verses love marriages. Though these women be journalists and doctors or running their own business they do not agree that their daughters have a 'right' to choose their own husbands. I had one tell me that she would disown her daughter if she insisted on marrying a man without family approval. Another said she thought it 'a better idea' that western women can meet different men and choose their own husbands but when I asked her if she would let her daughter choose she said 'absolutely not'. They find our culture unruly and perverse. They speak of uncontrolled children who lack 'morality', they speak of unwanted births by underage girls, they speak of divorce, etc. There are some aspects of western life that they abhore and would never accept. They want change but they do not want to become like us, they do not want what we want, their idea of freedom differs greatly to ours. It is foolishness it ignore this fact and even worse to assume they are wrong. Note, they are not busy trying to change us so why are we busy trying to change them?

Quoteh really? Then I guess we should stop sending food, medicine, and money abroad as well. How about this for a proposition? If you want to receive humanitarian aid from us then you have to legalize and enforce a bill of human rights?

I never implied that. Sending food, medicine and money is fine but what about when Africa refused ais because they did not want the genetically modified grain and food that was offered? What about when Iran tells the U.S that they do not want them to send long term medical teams into their country after the earthquake? Or when money is refused because it is used to manipulate political change? Castro is a prime example of this. What I mean by charity begins at home and ends abroad is that let us stop focusing on the issues of others when they are not asking us for help when there is much that can be done to promote a better life in the West. When a friend of mine was making a fool of herself for a man who used and abused her I told her once what I thought. When she insisted in being with him anyway I left her alone and shut my mouth. When she came back months later cying about this and that after he dumped her ass I told her it was her own damn fault and maybe now she will absorb the lesson and not repeat it. Sound harsh? It isnt. I respect people enough to make choices in their own best interests. If I see pitfalls that they dont and I warn them of consequence and then they travel the road anyway then perhaps there was something they needed to learn along that way. I think people stand straighter and stronger when they are not on crutches. I think that giving a helping hand is asking them what they need so they will have the ability to help themselves. Not forcing my ideas on them.

Quote:Apparently you believe that if a problem is too complex to resolve wholesale we should do nothing. Personally, I believe that we can make some steps in the right direction at least.

I have been on the front lines my friend and know first hand. You cannot help those who refuse your help, you cannot tell someone there is a problem when they see no problem. Who is 'we'? Are westerners babysitters of the world? Do you see the ethnocentricity in your stand? YOu know a few years ago there was a devastating hurricane in one of the islands (I cannot remember which one St. Lucia, St. Vincent, Dominican Republic..escapes me anyway) The peace corps and volunteers (many from Texas) were sent to help clean up and rebuild new homes. They were there a few months and then were asked to leave? Why? Because locals felt the volunteers behaved as if the locals knew nothing about how best to rebuild. These people experience hurricanes all the time, what they needed from the West was manpower rescources, what they got were a lot of people who thought it was their job to manage them. This could have been avoided if the volunteers had seen the locals as equals and co-authored a plan of action, instead they treated them as children who were to take their orders for their own good.

Quote:Yes, I'm sure they can all afford to go vacationing in Canada.
Riiiight! Because we all know that Africans are just a bunch of poor starving people living naked in the jungle right? They don't travel and if they do its as a refugee right? There are no middle class Africans right? Do you see how patronizing you are?

Quote:What conceivable difference does this make?
It makes a huge difference because if for the practise to stop mothers and grandmothers must alter their perspective. They are the ones to uphold the ritual. They are the ones who themselves had the ritual done to them. So if you want to see change begin with the mothers.

My Quote:
The child cannot escape on its own its the mother who must decide she does not want the girl to be undergo the ritual.

YOur answer:Ah, I see. So if the abuse is ritual and "religious" in nature then it's okay?

Quote: Dont be an idiot take a look at what I wrote. I never said it was okay, its not okay for me, the ceremony they practise is not religious at all. You cannot control what people do with their children in another country within a different cultural matrix.
You want me to say its bad, okay its terrible, horrific, now what? What to do now? I think the way I see most people treat their children as horrific but what to do? Take their kids away? Open a global orphanage?

Quote:Indeed, you are right. I'm sure they do not consider themselves to be subhuman but there are a large number of women (even here in the U.S.) who feel that they are inferior to men simply because they are women. Many of these 'rituals' and traditions perpetuate this.

First of all i dont believe that at all. I dont know many woman who think they are inferior to men. Most women I know have wondered what happened to REAL men, and not these metrosexual, pansy assed, little boys pretending they are men. I see women wondering about where the men of responsibility are, where the men of intelligence are, where the men of stability are, I see them wondering why men have become so emasculated that they are of no use. If after all the opportunities and possibilities afforded women in the West they still want to think themselves inferior then so be it, I dont know many women like this. I dont know of any traditional religious ritual that would perpetuate this, but I am also not religious and outside of some conservative jews, one who goes to a methodist church and one catholic turned wicca witch I don't know anyone who is religious or practises a religion to the extent that it hinders their happiness and freedom.

Quote:Education, exposure, and argument, this is how you change people's minds. That's why I won't let PS get away with what he says unchallenged. Because just maybe someone will see that his argument doesn't hold water and change their minds.

This is definitely the place to hold such arguments and I also believe that they are useful in helping people flesh out their own ideas or come to new conclusions. Education is good but no one is in a position to educate the world and for much of the world education is a practical tool, not designed to change their religious or traditional ways of life. Exposure? How will you give them exposure? Most people in developing countries know more about our lifestyles and political/social agendas than we do about thiers. If we want to help we have to understand them and theirs first, and when one does one also understands the nuances and complexities that make up any specific culture and realize that it is not something you can just walk into and rip out a portion of with any ease or without resistance. You know in Europe right now many countries have large amounts of first, second and third generation people from the middle east who are living in their countries. To their dismay many of these people who are raised in the west and receive a western education still do not absorb western values. The question arises as to why should they? I have a friend in Denmark who says she felt threatened by seeing a fully veiled woman on the bus? She doesn't understand why these women still want to be veiled. She doesn't understand why the men return to their countries and bring back women they barely know for marriage? She is appauled at how they treat their women not allowing them to learn danish or not allowing them to leave the house except for market. Many change many are resistent to change. Overtime more perhaps will change. But that is another topic entirely and probably best not hashed out in this thread.

Quote:Where do you get off assuming I don't do anything about it?

Because if you did you would say, I mean its not as if I havent asked for the plan.

Quote:It's going to take generations, we might as well get started now. The first difficulty is getting people to even admit there is a problem.

Well you see and that is why we are having this discussion now.

Quote:No, I honestly don't feel that I am. I have no problems with cultural practices and traditions as long as they're voluntary. If an 18 year old woman wants to be circumcised of her own free will, go for it. I have no problem with different cultures reaching a certain minimum of human freedom in their own manner and honestly I think that most countries are moving towards this. But there are people who would like to drag us backwards and there are small areas and groups of people where things are really bad.

Now you have really floored me! no cultural practise or tradition can be voluntary. We wear what we wear based on birth. We think what we think based on birth. We eat, fuck, marry, make choices, worship mostly based on birth. I also disagree that anyone is trying to drag canadians or americans backwards. For this to happen our culture would have to be in the minority but it isnt it dominates. Western civilization is an empire, american culture is our largest export, there is a reason why I can watch oprah on skytelevision while in asia, there is a reason why they drink cocacola in africa and bluejeans can be purchased everywhere. They can sing Madonna lyrics in China. Much of what we are seeing in the world today is a BACKLASH a RESISTANCE to what they see as a CULTURAL IMPERIALISM. See what I mean? We are not so diametrically opposed you and I in ideology it is the method of action we do not agree with. i also think that you make assumptions about other cultures that would come across as patronizing and arrogant to people from those cultures.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Spookz

Checked the site and think it is an interesting debate. It is only natural to judge ourselves and others but what I find annoying is this notion that our judgement can or should lead to active intervention, especially when the intervention isnt requested. I mean these are whole countries with thousands of years of history, religion and myth, etc. and suddenly some smartass in the west thinks they can go in and unravel that with their 'reason' and 'justice'. I dont know maybe its just me, maybe I'm the crazy one here but if a country and its citizens are not willing interventions cannot be done without force and the implications of force is imperialism.

 

[spookz]

Though these women be journalists and doctors or running their own business they do not agree that their daughters have a 'right' to choose their own husbands. I had one tell me that she would disown her daughter if she insisted on marrying a man without family approval. Another said she thought it 'a better idea' that western women can meet different men and choose their own husbands but when I asked her if she would let her daughter choose she said 'absolutely not'.

you seem to accept the notion of children as property. the only interference i see here is with the parental actions. rest assured, these girls have recourse to the law. even in india

Checked the site and think it is an interesting debate. It is only natural to judge ourselves and others but what I find annoying is this notion that our judgement can or should lead to active intervention, especially when the intervention isnt requested. I mean these are whole countries with thousands of years of history, religion and myth, etc. and suddenly some smartass in the west thinks they can go in and unravel that with their 'reason' and 'justice'. I dont know maybe its just me, maybe I'm the crazy one here but if a country and its citizens are not willing interventions cannot be done without force and the implications of force is imperialism.

bah
why dont you define what being a humanitarian means to you. what will it take to motivate you? this idle speculation is mind numbing in its generalities. i need some real issues.

*There is an inherent racism involved when a american baby cannot be left out in cold to die and and a chinese one can. this is not a superficial difference that should be accepted and enjoyed for its contrast. rather it should be an instance where alternative solutions should be offered. it about being humane and being part of a larger society.

thoughts? perhaps it is more than racism. it is.......sub humanism!!!!

Yet leaders seem to be recognizing that the alternative to "interference" is a Norway with two systems of governance: democracy for Westerners and an oppressive, misogynist autocracy for Muslims. A country and a continent - that accepts such a state of affairs is headed for disaster. Norway's neighbors should take note. muslim norway

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

No spookz I am telling you what those mothers felt. Read my post to raith and you will see what being a humanitarian means to me. Thoughts? No thank you I dont wish to share my thoughts with you. Find someone else to play with.

 

[spookz]

No spookz I am telling you what those mothers felt. Read my post to raith and you will see what being a humanitarian means to me. Thoughts? No thank you I dont wish to share my thoughts with you. Find someone else to play with.

hmm
elitist pig

 

[James R]

Proud_Muslim:

Oh dear. You're tying yourself in all kinds of logical knots now. Let me see if I can help you.

Sure, most women dont invite rape by their thinking, but by dressing revealing dress they ' unintentionally' invite such crime.

Even if this were true, it is totally beside the point. What you are saying is that the victim dressing provocatively in some way excuses the criminal, or mitigates the crime. That is the argument you need to address, and so far you're failing miserably.

I think women in the west are taught since young age to show their sexuality, and here where is the problem, that is why you have so much sexual crimes.

You continue to ignore the fact that Syria (to take one example) most likely has just as many sex crimes as western nations (adjusted for population). There is simply less reporting.

Of course I can resist such temptation, but why should I go through this experience just because some women want to dress outrageous cloth ??? isnt that an assult on my right to live without any psychological pressure ???

you know as a man, fighting temptation specially sexual requires special powers, so I can resist ( and I did resist many times in the campus ) but my concern is about those WIERD WEAK men ( muslims and non-muslims alike ) who cant resist and have no control ?? so basicly asking women to dress modestly is PROTECTION for both.

Is it so hard to obey the Qu'ran and not look at the provocative women? Is the psychological pressure of sexual urges so much stronger than your duty to your God? Maybe Allah sent provocatively dressed women to test your faith and your ability to resist temptation.

If the "weird weak men" can't resist temptation, isn't that their problem, not the women's problem? Shouldn't the effort go towards helping the weird weak men fight their urges? Blaming the victim doesn't solve the problem.

As I said, maybe Muslim men are the strongest in the world regarding sexual temptation because we are armed with very strong formidable dose of Quranic wisdom regarding ZINA ( Adultry ) so we have the advantage over others regarding that, when someone committ adultry, they feel no remorse, while Muslims have to think 10 times before they do such act because it is big sin specially if you were married.

This can explain why Rape in the Muslim world is very very low.

But the Christian bible also has a commandment: "Thou shalt not commit adultery." It couldn't be clearer. The United States is a predominantly Christian country, and Christians should think equally as long and hard before they commit adultery. So, it seems that the Muslim faith can't be the reason for the low reporting of rape cases in Syria, or else we'd expect equally low rates in the US.

Sex is FREE in the west, what I meant by that is it is EASILY obtained under many banners such as girlfriend-boyfriend, one night stand, sex after dating...etc such things DOS NOT exist in Muslim environment.

I'm confident that sex before marriage still happens in Muslim nations - more often than is acknowledged. The only difference is that in the west it is less hidden.

Wait a second here, we are talking about POLICE MEN opinion polls, those people dont just say opinions, they speak out of EXPERIENCE.

Everybody speaks from their own experience. Policemen are no less biased in their opinions than anybody else. What makes you think policemen are infallible?

and what about Dr.Luchenstein, Physician at Tombs prison in New York city...

He seems as misguided as you are.

Me: What do you think the equivalent figure is for Syria? I hope you can back up your view.

You: yes, it is about 0,73 % you see, we are not even in the top 65 countries in the world ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap ) and to back up my views, here is The Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems,( United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seventh_survey/567sc.pdf

I cannot access the UN page for some reason, but it doesn't matter, since you didn't answer my question. I wanted you to estimate the ratio of reported to unreported rapes in Syria. For the US, you claim the ratio is 1:10. Clearly, your 0.73% figure doesn't mean anything if the equivalent ratio for Syria is significant.

Surely you don't believe that every single rape which occurs in Syria is reported to the police, do you? That would be very naive indeed.

I do believe rape and other womne abuses increased in the past 40 years, otherwise how do you explain the rise of militant feminist movements ?????

For somebody who claims to run a feminist website, you know remarkably little about feminism.

The feminist movement started as a <b>reaction</b> against the injustices and inequalities imposed on women. For example, have you ever heard of the Suffragette movements which campaigned for the rights of women to vote? They were protesting against men holding all political power, excluding 50% of the population.

Similarly, when feminists speak up about rape they are complaining of the long history in which rape has been largely ignored or not given sufficient notice by male-dominated society.

Your opinion that suddenly in 1960 men started raping women when they never had before, just because they started to wear miniskirts, is childishly naive and laughable.

Well statistics talk by themselfs, not A SINGLE MUSLIM country is in the top 20 of most rapes..so, please, admit it and move on.

For the fifth time, statistics do not talk by themselves. All statistics are subject to interpretation. In the present case, you are ignoring a very important feature which skews the statistics. Being pig-headed about it won't make that issue go away.

That does not mean Islam let the rapists get away, RAPE'S PUNISHMENT IN ISLAM IS DEATH....show me which other country or religion or system apply such harsh pentality on rapists ????????

What if the women involved was provocatively dressed? Does the rapist still get the death sentence? What if the women was a prostitute? Is the rapist still sentenced to death?

How many people have been sentenced to death for rape in the last year in Syria? Do you know?

Well this is not true, because in your case guys in the west, when you have sexual urge and you dont have 'current' girlfriend, you need to empty it somewhere else ( prostitute for example ) while Muslim men who DID NOT try it before will be quite satisfied with what they have because they DONT know what is like to CHANGE girlfriends and tastes different women !!! got it ?

Are Muslim men unaware that women other than their wives exist? Do they never wonder what sex with another woman might be like? Yes, I'm sure they don't. I bet none of them masterbate either.

Do you believe that the only possible outlet for a sexual urge is actual intercourse? Presumably you do, since you assume that a western man who has a sexual urge "need to empty it somewhere else". Is that because all western men are decadent and uncontrolled, whereas all Muslim men are virtuous and capable of self-control?

No, it can't be that, can it, because you admit that some rapes occur in Muslim countries. Since most women don't dress provocatively there, the rapists must also be raping women who are dressed modestly. It seems that there are, after all, some Muslim men who also need to "empty it somewhere else".

I agree, the reaction ( RAPE ) is totally disproportionate, but again,why we dont say that the ACTION was also disproportionate ? you see, it is 2 way argument.

What a mixed-up, ill-thought-out statement! Look:

Provocation: provocative dress
Reaction: rape

It's my argument that the reaction is disproportionate to the provocation. Looking at your quote we have:

Provocation: ?
Reaction: dress provocatively,

which you are saying is also disproportionate. The difference between my argument and yours is that there is no provocation in your argument, is there? Dressing provocatively is not disproportionate to anything, because there's nothing for it to be disproportionate to.

[THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS POST]

Me: What are you saying, then? It is one thing to excuse the rapist, but another to let them off with a lighter penalty. I assume you are advocating that a man who rapes a women who is "provocatively" dressed should get a lighter penalty than one who rapes a "modestly" dressed woman? Am I right?

You : No, you got it wrong here. As a Muslim I believe BOTH men should be sentenced to death, no difference , rape is rape but I believe the man who raped this provocatively dressed woman should be given the chance to appeal and address his reasons why he raped this woman, then the Sharia judge, can view the situation and the circumstances that led to such horrible crime and sentence him accordingly.

Again, seldom have I seen such a poorly argued case.

Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying:

1. A rapist who rapes a modestly-dressed woman should be sentenced to death.
2. A rapist who rapes a provocatively-dressed women should <b>also</b> be sentenced to death.
3. <b>BUT</b> in case 2, the sentence should rightly be changed on appeal, presumably either to let the rapist free, or to make his sentence milder.

What sentence do you actually think is fair for a rapist of a provocatively-dressed women, Proud_Muslim? Stop pretending, and tell us what you really think.

I strongly believe as a muslim that prostitution is silent rape with fake consent.

That's a topic for a future discussion, perhaps. I won't comment now.

No, I reject this argument totally, a women have NO right to dress as they please if that will generate pyschological struggle in men's minds and will generate hot LUST for sex , why should I pay from my own peace of mind just because someone want to look like prostitute???????

Women have to respect my feelings and my desire not to be tempted as well as me respecting their desire not to be looked at as sexual objects but rather as beautiful human being.

What you seem to be saying, PM, is that you, personally, are attracted to women who look like prostitutes, and you'd rather not be tempted by that. Therefore, you define "provocative dress" as "dressing like a prostitute". But not all men are like you, PM. Some men get sexually excited by girls in school uniforms. Is that "provocative dress"? If one of these men rapes a schoolgirl (let's say she is 17 years old, so we don't get into issues of pedophilia), should he get a light sentence because he considers her to be dressed provocatively?

Are you saying that all women should consult with every man they meet as to what excites him sexually, and then alter the way they dress in case they get him all excited unintentionally? And if they get it wrong, they are the ones to blame if he rapes them?

Me: Do you really believe a thief should get a lighter sentence for his theft if the person he stole from was not careful in protecting his possessions?

You: Of course not, thief is thief, but the owner of this house/shop should be blamed as well for his SHEER IDIOCY, maybe the judge can remind this idiot to be more careful regarding his house and shop.

Well, maybe the judge could remind the provocatively-dressed rape victim to be more careful in how she dresses in future, too. That could be a good thing, but that's not what this argument is about. This argument is about whether the <b>rapist</b> should be held to a lower level of responsibility because the woman is provocatively dressed. You don't seem to think the thief should be held to a lower level of responbility, or get a lighter sentence, so why do you hold such a different opinion when it comes to rape? It makes you look misogynistic, to say the least.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

It is not Islamic to force anyone to do things they dont want to do, but in certain cases like in some Malaysian states where rape and crime are soaring due to 'lose' dress code, forcing dress code becomes necessity.

We are learning from the FRENCH a greal deal about 'forcing' certain dress code.

why, muslim men can't control themselves when they see women in 'lose' dress codes? a burkah for everyone, yeah even the French!

 

[Bells]

What I would like PM to answer is this... what do you consider to be a provocative way of dressing?

Are we women to cover ourselves up completely because men like you can't bare to look away? And worse still, if we don't cover up we are to blame if some men can't not just look but touch and grab? Why are the women being blamed for the man's lack of self-control? When I was assaulted I was wearing long pants and a long sleeved shirt. Hardly provocative as there was nothing but my face and hands showing. Or should I have covered those as well? Or better yet, should I have stayed at home and not left the house at all in case any guy out there saw me as being provocative and therefore put myself at the risk of being raped?

PM, what kind of clothes do YOU think women should wear to appear to be less provocative?

And don't just say dress modestly. I'd like you to give examples of what you see to be a modest form of dress. Are jeans modest? Are knee length skirts modest? Are shirts modest? Are t-shirts or sleeveless tops modest? Are shorts allowed in any way? How about the arabic man I saw parading up and down the beach the other week wearing a white G-string as his bathing costume, while his wife was covered from head to toe sitting and sweltering on the beach along with his daughter who looked to be about 5 who was also dressed like her mother. Should he not have shown some level of modesty? Why did he expect his wife and daughter to be dressed so while he disgusted everyone else on the beach in his swimming attire (as any man wearing a G-string can be off putting on a beach)? Why is he allowed to dress as he pleases and attract looks from both men and women on the beach (although who the hell would have lusted after that is beyond me .. ugh) when according to you, women should not be allowed to dress as they please because they'd make you look and feel attracted to them? Is there not a double standard thing here, which defies your own argument that under Islam, men and women are equal.

PM your argument about women being marginally responsible for any rapes or assault upon their bodies due to their dress sense says nothing about why men are also raped. Should men therefore not wear shorts, tank tops, singlets, t-shirts because they are also showing some skin and therefore they could be deemed to be provocatively dressed and could invite a rape? And what about why children are also raped. And yes I know with children it's peadophilia, but as James said, some people find the children to be alluring and provocative, just in the same way that you're saying that men find women provocative. Are the children to blame for being seen to be provocative to the sick bastard that abuses them, just in the same way as you're blaming the women for being provocative to the sick bastards who rape them? How about this 11 year old girl who was raped in police custody in Sudan

N.J.(1) is an 11-year-old child who lives with her family in one of the camps designated for internally displaced persons (IDPs) on the outskirts of Khartoum, the capital of Sudan. She and her family came originally from the war torn area of Equatoria in the south of Sudan. On 5 May 1999 N.J. left the IDP camp of Suk Libya in Omdurman Province to visit some relatives in nearby Mayo camp. She got lost on her way home and was questioned by police officers, who mistook her for a vagrant child. She was taken to Soba police station in Omdurman where four police officers are reported to have sexually assaulted her. One police officer undressed her by force, threatening to beat her if she resisted. He then allegedly raped N.J. in the presence of the three other officers.

She was later taken to the Ibrahim Malik Teaching Hospital by the same police officer, who claimed that N.J. had been found lying outdoors suffering from malaria and meningitis. The doctors put her on treatment for malaria for five days. Nobody informed her parents of her whereabouts. While she was undergoing treatment in hospital, doctors discovered signs that she might have been raped. They referred N.J. to the Gynaecology Department for further examination where the rape was confirmed.

Since the rape, N.J. has been suffering from the physical health problems and the psychological trauma which are characteristic of sexual torture of children. In addition, she feels socially ostracised in a culture which tends to stigmatise victims of rape.

Was this poor child possibly too provocative for the police who wrongly picked her up? And now this poor child will have to live within her culture with the stigma of rape over her head. Don't these police officers deserve to be dismembered one by one for having ruined this girls life? Or do you think they should be questioned to see why they may have done it ?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Malaysian City Imposes Islamic Dress Code On Women:

why is that? because muslims look at women only sexually? as objects for sexual desire only, not as humans worthy of respect, etc.? is that why they need to cover up? because they are, as one person stated, "walking vaginas"?

where the Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS) is in power, has imposed its own dress code for non-Muslim women working in the private sector, creating havoc in some quarters

by force, always by force

of the largely Muslim country

Actually, it's just 58%, but they force minorities to comply
http://www.nationbynation.com/Malaysia/Population.html

GREAT, MUSLIMS ARE LEARNING GREAT DEAL FROM 'LIBERAL' FRANCE

Actually, Turkey did the same thing, only better
http://www.turizm.net/turkey/history/ataturk.html

 

[Raithere]

Out in the open and slowly getting better?? you must be joking !!

I'm not joking at all. Sad as it is, things are actually quite a bit better now than even 50 years ago. Indeed this is one of the reasons why I find your position so absurd. The link between miniskirts and reported rape that you were searching for is not a direct one but an indirect one. Both are linked to the advancement of women's rights. Rapes are reported more often but their occurrence is actually declining along with the overall violent crime rate in the U.S. since the 1970's (I couldn't find data regarding earlier dates). The doj reports that the occurance of rape has decreased 56% since 1993 despite the fact that more people report violent crime (up 6% to a total of 49%).
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/cv02pr.htm

this BS about rape and you tend to believe that Rape is ONLY about power and it is only men's fault !! which is of course BS.

Look, I won't deny there is a sexual component to rape but no one has been able to demonstrate any statistical correlation between a woman's attire and rape. What studies do demonstrate is that most rapes are premeditated and that the woman's attire at the time of the rape is incidental. Psychological interviews with rapists also discredit the idea that appearance is a motivating factor.

Unfounded?

Yes, unfounded. You have yet to show us anything credible to supports your position.

At least I have the advantage to live in 2 different cultures and see by my self how dress code affects men's perception of sexuality, I am sure you did not have this expereicne ?? right ?

I've spent time in over 15 countries. 5 of which were stays of 3 weeks or more. I also have friends and family members that are from India, Pakistan, Iraq, South Africa, Greece, Italy, Ireland, Canada, Korea, Japan, China, the Philippines, Taiwan, Australia, Russia, Serbia, Germany, and Turkey... I have a fair concept of differing cultures.

you guys want to sweep it under the carpet and pretend nothing is happening.

What is it that you think I'm trying to sweep under the carpet? I agree that the U.S. has a problem with violence against women. I just don't believe that Muslim countries don't have one or that a dress code solves the problem.

And who gave you the right to get involved?

Allah, God, Nature... whatever you'd like to call it. I'm a human and believe that humans should have certain rights. I have a mind my hands and a voice and I will use them.

stay fucked in your own countries SORTING out your own human rights abuses first , you see, it is this SELF-RIGHTOUS WESTERN SYNDROME AGAIN!

LOL Who brought this topic up PS? Who continually creates threads hollering about how vile the west is? Who insists on 'shouting' all the time and flaming everyone? If you don't like the response then stop posting.

Do I have the right to get involved as SYRIAN into the human rights abuses that takes place every single day in America ?

Sure, I have no problem with that. If you want to send some money or volunteer your time at some women's shelters I can give you some addresses.

HE WHO LIVES IN HOUSE OF GLASS BETTER NOT TO THROW OTHERS' HOUSES WITH STONES !

I'm not throwing stones at your glass house PS, I'm throwing them at you.

Amnesty finds only two EU states uphold human rights

I know. Pretty sad, isn't it?

Have a nice reading !

I'm a member of AI and have been for almost 20 years, I receive and read all kinds of reports from them. Why don't you read this one:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/iraqi_women.html

~Raithere

 

[Proud_Muslim]

No I don't, but you obviously need some Mullah to take your hand as you blindly go through the Quran.
I have a different interpretation to the straight way. And I think your tafsir is quite wrong. First, what is the properties of straight.

You know something Flores, we dont have in Arabic a word called MULLAH, it is only used in Pakistan and in Afghanistan by those BACKWARD TALIBAN-THUGS and their supporters and of course by the CNN and FOX JEWS to advance more hate against Muslims.

First, let me refute your rediculous interpretation.

My dear flores, this is NOT my interpretation, I told you already.

Why would god want to guide us to a narrow line that separate hell and heaven? If anything, god should be guiding us to heaven, not a rope skimpy line.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, God does not guide you, God asks you to walk on this line, if you fall ( only bad evil people will fall ) then you are in hell if you continue ( the good SALIHIN people will ) then you will reach JANNAH ( Paradise ) some people cross it like light ( the very pious Muslims ) some takes some time ( the less pious like me ) and so on.

How do we obtain guidance. In our lives. So the way to heaven is in our lives, and the straight path is the sequencial decisions that we take in our lives to reach our destined end.

EXACTLY, I agree with you 100%...this is the first time I agree with you Flores, very interesting development

Life is marked by birth and death, two points on line. It's a one way street. We need guidance in our life, the right decisions are always hard, steep, ect...So do you see how you have no clue what straight means?

but you are talking about straight from EARTHY perspective while I am talking about Straight in heaven, big difference.

Prophet Muhammed never offered a formal Tafseer, or we would have two books, the Quran, and what the Quran means....Very nice..huh?

He did my dear, it is called Sunnah ( the sayings and the life of the prophet muhammad ).

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud_Muslim:

Oh dear. You're tying yourself in all kinds of logical knots now. Let me see if I can help you.

Yes Please, as this famous Arab proverb goes: YOU ARE THE FOUNTAIN OF KNOWLEDGE AND I DRINK FROM ITS WATER

Even if this were true, it is totally beside the point. What you are saying is that the victim dressing provocatively in some way excuses the criminal, or mitigates the crime. That is the argument you need to address, and so far you're failing miserably.

Failing miserably ! according to who ? according to your judgement !!

You continue to ignore the fact that Syria (to take one example) most likely has just as many sex crimes as western nations (adjusted for population). There is simply less reporting.

This is NOT true, we dont have something called SEX CRIMES, there might be some rapes, maybe 4-5 EVERY YEAR, why you dont come to Syria and see by yourself ??? I am still waiting for your evidence regarding LESS REPORTING in Syria or the Muslim world, and NO I dont accept hate sites as evidence, I want formal credible sites such as the UN.

Is it so hard to obey the Qu'ran and not look at the provocative women?

No, It is not so hard.

Is the psychological pressure of sexual urges so much stronger than your duty to your God? Maybe Allah sent provocatively dressed women to test your faith and your ability to resist temptation.

and during this test some people fail, but again, you are putting the burden on MEN, Allah Almighty asked men to lower their gaze and ALSO asked women to DRESS MODESTLY, you see, Islam is very fair, Allah put the burden on BOTH.

If the "weird weak men" can't resist temptation, isn't that their problem, not the women's problem? Shouldn't the effort go towards helping the weird weak men fight their urges? Blaming the victim doesn't solve the problem.

And what about the WEIRD women ?? those who dress so outrageously, dont they need help as well ???

But the Christian bible also has a commandment: "Thou shalt not commit adultery." It couldn't be clearer. The United States is a predominantly Christian country, and Christians should think equally as long and hard before they commit adultery.

I dont accept this argument, your country ( the USA ) has the highest rate of rape in the WHOLE WORLD, so where is this commandment about adultry ? either America is not christian nation or the christians there dont give a shit about this commandment !! which one ?

So, it seems that the Muslim faith can't be the reason for the low reporting of rape cases in Syria, or else we'd expect equally low rates in the US.

As I argued above, you have the highest rate of rape in the world, something seriously wrong is going on in your supposedly christian country.

I'm confident that sex before marriage still happens in Muslim nations - more often than is acknowledged. The only difference is that in the west it is less hidden.

Sure it does, but mainly among christian minorites and of course some Muslims but certainly not at the same level in the west, this is just ABSURD.

Everybody speaks from their own experience. Policemen are no less biased in their opinions than anybody else. What makes you think policemen are infallible?

Why should policemen be biased ? what is their reason for citing that women dress has a role to play in some rape cases ?? why they should lie ?? come on, no one buy such argument.

He seems as misguided as you are.

Dr.Luchenstein, Physician at Tombs prison in New York city, worked with 170,000 prisoners over a 12 years period and you call him misguided just because he FOUND SOMETHING which contradicts the MYTHS you guyes were indoctrinated to believe since young age !!!

I cannot access the UN page for some reason, but it doesn't matter, since you didn't answer my question. I wanted you to estimate the ratio of reported to unreported rapes in Syria. For the US, you claim the ratio is 1:10. Clearly, your 0.73% figure doesn't mean anything if the equivalent ratio for Syria is significant.

well, the fact that we have 0.73 % rape means a lot, as regarding to the unreported rape in Syria, I dont have any statistics about them but you can get some conclusions from the 0.73 % figure.

Surely you don't believe that every single rape which occurs in Syria is reported to the police, do you? That would be very naive indeed.

of course not.

For somebody who claims to run a feminist website, you know remarkably little about feminism.

I did not claim to run feminist site, I said, I am a member and big support of the Muslim women Leauge in the USA.

http://www.mwlusa.org/

and I am building my own website about FEMINIST ISLAM to talk about Islam and women rights and how Prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) was the first feminist ever in history.

The feminist movement started as a reaction against the injustices and inequalities imposed on women.

And why they was and STILL so much injustices and inequalities against women in the west, I thought your societies were FREE DEMOCRATIC and LIBERAL !!

For example, have you ever heard of the Suffragette movements which campaigned for the rights of women to vote? They were protesting against men holding all political power, excluding 50% of the population.

You see, until recently your women were banned from politics and even from voting while the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) gave Muslim women this right 1400 years ago...Amazing, isn't ?

Until 1971 women in Switzerland were NOT allowed to vote and until 1945 in France.

Finland was the first European country to give women the right to vote in 1906, 1300 years after ISLAM !!! INCREDIBLE.

Similarly, when feminists speak up about rape they are complaining of the long history in which rape has been largely ignored or not given sufficient notice by male-dominated society.

Sadly this trend is still predominat in most of the western world.

Your opinion that suddenly in 1960 men started raping women when they never had before, just because they started to wear miniskirts, is childishly naive and laughable.

did I say men started raping JUST after 1960 and the miniskirt ?? come on, dont attribute things to me I never said, I said rape INCREASED dramaticlly after the introduction of the mini skirt by about 60% in the US and STAGGERING 90% in England !

For the fifth time, statistics do not talk by themselves. All statistics are subject to interpretation.

You wont say that if these statistics are showing Muslim countries in bad shape, will you ??

In the present case, you are ignoring a very important feature which skews the statistics. Being pig-headed about it won't make that issue go away.

What I am ignoring ? as if me who is doing the statistics ?? I told you to provide evidence but so far you FAILED to provide any evidence that rape statistics are NOT reported in the Muslim world.

What if the women involved was provocatively dressed? Does the rapist still get the death sentence? What if the women was a prostitute? Is the rapist still sentenced to death?

I said earlier, that rapist should sentenced to death but if he was provocked by prostitue or outrageously dressed woman then the judge should take that into consideration.

How many people have been sentenced to death for rape in the last year in Syria? Do you know?

Sadly, my country is run by SECULAR WESTERN ORINTED laws, so I dont think anyone was sentenced to death in Syria for rape..they were given 10-20 years imprisonment .

we have 57 Muslim country, only in 2 there is Sharia law and the rest are screwed up by man-made western oriented laws which is very very sad.

Are Muslim men unaware that women other than their wives exist?

No, they are not aware of that.

Do they never wonder what sex with another woman might be like? Yes, I'm sure they don't. I bet none of them masterbate either.

why they should think of these issues, they are not SEX-ANIMALS to do that, we have more creative things to do in our lives than to think about such issues.

Do you believe that the only possible outlet for a sexual urge is actual intercourse? Presumably you do, since you assume that a western man who has a sexual urge "need to empty it somewhere else". Is that because all western men are decadent and uncontrolled, whereas all Muslim men are virtuous and capable of self-control?

Look, I always try to avoid generalization because it is the tool of the fools, I am not saying ALL western men are decadent and uncontrolled, FAR FROM IT, I have some nice respected friends from the west and they deserve my utmost respect.

Of course the only outlett for sexual urge is actual intercourse ( apart from masterbation ) and that is why they try to get married as early as possible ( I got married at 26 ) temptations where I studied and lived The U.K. was incredible for young Muslim man coming from the orient.

No, it can't be that, can it, because you admit that some rapes occur in Muslim countries. Since most women don't dress provocatively there, the rapists must also be raping women who are dressed modestly. It seems that there are, after all, some Muslim men who also need to "empty it somewhere else".

first of all NOT all muslim women are wearing hijab, in fact, if you come to Syria you will find FRENCH-STYLE dress for women and Italian-style dress for men, many Syrian girls dress very liberal dress just like in Europe and the U.S. and most of these rapes took place in the view night clubs in our cities.

Sadly, some misguided Syrians think imitating the west means DEVELOPMENT, but instead of imitating it in its scientific developments and many other aspects, they go to the lowest and most disgusting things in your culture to imitate !! very sad.

Provocation: provocative dress
Reaction: rape

I can put it this way: ACTION: provocative dress
Reaction: Rape.

It's my argument that the reaction is disproportionate to the provocation. Looking at your quote we have:
Provocation: ?
Reaction: dress provocatively,

Nah, you got it wrong, you should replace the word provocation with the word ACTION....remember this famous law in physics, every action has reaction equal in force and opposite in direction !

which you are saying is also disproportionate. The difference between my argument and yours is that there is no provocation in your argument, is there?

Yes there is provocation in my argument, dressing outrageously is provocative ACTION which might lead to EVIL REACTION ( Rape ).

Dressing provocatively is not disproportionate to anything, because there's nothing for it to be disproportionate to.

How about being disproportionate to the NORMS of the society ? since even you in the west have different dress code for work and for night culbs.

Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying:

1. A rapist who rapes a modestly-dressed woman should be sentenced to death.
2. A rapist who rapes a provocatively-dressed women should also be sentenced to death.
3. BUTin case 2, the sentence should rightly be changed on appeal, presumably either to let the rapist free, or to make his sentence milder.

This is outrageously UNTRUE, I never call for the rapist to be set free, NEVER, even in the case of rapist who rape provocativly dress woman. What I said in case no.2 is that the rapist should appeal and explain how the rape took place, who approached who first ?? did the provocatively dressed woman seduced him ?? etc if he was seduced by this woman, then his sentence should be lessed to long years imprisonment...STILL, HE HAS TO PAY FOR HIS EVIL CRIME.

What sentence do you actually think is fair for a rapist of a provocatively-dressed women, Proud_Muslim? Stop pretending, and tell us what you really think.

see above for my answer.

What you seem to be saying, PM, is that you, personally, are attracted to women who look like prostitutes, and you'd rather not be tempted by that.

The most thing that disgusts me is seeing woman dressing like prostitues even if they are not....dressing mini skirts FOR ME amounts to dressing like prostitute ( all prostitutes dress mini skirts ) Please note where I am coming from and my cultural background.

Therefore, you define "provocative dress" as "dressing like a prostitute". But not all men are like you, PM.

As I said, note my cultural background.

Some men get sexually excited by girls in school uniforms. Is that "provocative dress"? If one of these men rapes a schoolgirl (let's say she is 17 years old, so we don't get into issues of pedophilia), should he get a light sentence because he considers her to be dressed provocatively?

As I said, rape is rape, scroll up in this same post to see my answer.

Are you saying that all women should consult with every man they meet as to what excites him sexually, and then alter the way they dress in case they get him all excited unintentionally? And if they get it wrong, they are the ones to blame if he rapes them?

Women who grow up in any culture need not to consult any man, they ALREADY know the norms and the limits, even American women know dressing miniskirt will attract attention and some comments like WOOO, SO SEXY...etc so this question is not valid since women already know the limits.

Well, maybe the judge could remind the provocatively-dressed rape victim to be more careful in how she dresses in future, too. That could be a good thing, but that's not what this argument is about. This argument is about whether the <b>rapist</b> should be held to a lower level of responsibility because the woman is provocatively dressed.

As I said, RAPE IS RAPE and the rapist should be sentenced to death but in the case of provocatively dressed woman, the judge shall find out first who seduced who first ? was this man approached by this woman first ? or he approached her !! if she did first then he should not be sentenced to death but still he needs to serve long term in prison for his CRIME and this woman should be BANNED from dressing any such dress in the future.

You don't seem to think the thief should be held to a lower level of responbility, or get a lighter sentence, so why do you hold such a different opinion when it comes to rape? It makes you look misogynistic, to say the least.

Are you saying thieft = rape ???

 

[Bells]

As I said, RAPE IS RAPE and the rapist should be sentenced to death but in the case of provocatively dressed woman, the judge shall find out first who seduced who first ? was this man approached by this woman first ? or he approached her !! if she did first then he should not be sentenced to death but still he needs to serve long term in prison for his CRIME and this woman should be BANNED from dressing any such dress in the future.

Oh dear lord, this is a lost battle. You have absolutely no idea PM.

So if the woman approached the man first for whatever reason, she does not have the same right to say no as when if the man approached her first? Oh my God

this is tragically sad. And how pray tell would you ban a woman from dressing like that in the future? Would she be watched at all times to make sure no man found her to be alluring or attractive again? Would she have a guard watching her at all times? Would there be her photo on the police computer system with a note of 'provocative dresser beware' so that she can be spotted and punished for daring to dress in a manner that you would consider provocative? Or better still, should her photo be published on all newspapers with a note saying that she dressed provocatively and was raped for it and now the public must keep an eye out to make sure she doesn't dress like this again? Do you realise how insane that sounds? Have you any conception of what that means?

And again I ask you, what do YOU consider to be a provocative mode of dress? And should this apply to men as well in how they dress to stop them being raped as well? How about children?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

What I would like PM to answer is this... what do you consider to be a provocative way of dressing?

You see,here comes your cultural and religious background.

for me provocative dressing is the dress that shows your breats, your legs above your knees and trousers who are nearly glued on you.

Bikini is of course out of question....

 

[Flores]

Lucy,
please excuse me..I would love to answer your post, but I'm having a back to back meetings situation at work. I'll try to respond tomorrow.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Flores-That's okay. This debate doesnt seem to lose any heat so we''ll catch each other later.

 

[Repo Man]

So PM,hypothetical scenario. You are in a foreign country. It is tropical, and hot, so you are wearing a t-shirt and shorts. A large homosexual man in that country sees you in your "provocative attire",is overcome with lust, and assaults and rapes you.

Would you feel that you bore some responsibility for your own assault?

 

[katak]

KUALA TERENGGANU - Menteri Besar Abdul Hadi Awang has reversed his stand on the ban which stops non-Muslim women in Terengganu from wearing short skirts or tight jeans to work.

He said on Tuesday that the Terengganu state government run by Parti Islam SeMalaysia (PAS) could not dictate how non-Muslims should be dressed.

'They are free to choose their dressing and we cannot force them to dress like Muslims,' he said before presenting Chinese New Year gifts to non-Muslims in Kampong Tiong.

Several of these leaders and other groups in Malaysia criticised the code as infringing on the rights of women who are not followers of Islam.

They included Muslims urging the Terengganu government to pay more attention to the state's poor economy than the way women dress.
-- New Straits Times, TheStar/Asia News Network

-----------

Just to let you know PAS is opposition party the ruling party for Malaysia is Barisan Nasional.

 

[spookz]

This is NOT true, we dont have something called SEX CRIMES, there might be some rapes, maybe 4-5 EVERY YEAR, why you dont come to Syria and see by yourself ??? I am still waiting for your evidence regarding LESS REPORTING in Syria or the Muslim world, and NO I dont accept hate sites as evidence, I want formal credible sites such as the UN.

lying pig



*Physicians, lawyers and activists say domestic violence, sexual or physical, and discrimination against women is common among conservative Syria's 16.7 million people, particularly in rural areas

*Ignorance, machismo and tribal customs which favour men fuel the violence and combine to make the lot of many Syrian women a miserable one.

*Although there are no official estimates of domestic violence or rape, activists say the victims number in the thousands. Mustapha Habash, head of the emergency department at Al-Muwasat hospital in Damascus, says he sees three to four victims of violence each month.

*"Our society is very violent. It is male-dominated, aggressive and suppressive," said cardiologist Ahmad at-Taqi, a former deputy. "The number of girls who suffer heart problems is equal to the number of boys but 92 percent of surgery is performed on boys simply because traditions say that a girl child can be replaced," he added.

* But perhaps the most controversial law against women, and one common in Arab countries, says a rapist can be acquitted if he marries his victim, Nijmeh said. "This way, the woman suffers three times. First when she was raped, secondly when she is married to her rapist and thirdly when he inevitably divorces her after a few months," she added.

Violence Against Women Seen Rife in Syria

as much as notions of obedience, sexual subversience, multiple partners and other lord of the manor shit may turn me on......it is good for that moment only. it is role playing

now look how the sub humans have created entire societies based on this shit! it aint all fun and games that goes on. actual human (female) suffering and death is a consequence borne by not playing by the sub humans's rules.

 

[Flores]

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, God does not guide you, God asks you to walk on this line, if you fall ( only bad evil people will fall ) then you are in hell if you continue ( the good SALIHIN people will ) then you will reach JANNAH ( Paradise ) some people cross it like light ( the very pious Muslims ) some takes some time ( the less pious like me ) and so on.

I hate to bring it to you, but there is no balance beam in heaven, although that was my best event. The line (Serat Mostaqeem) is a straight productive rightous life....period.

Of course, the nodding islamic schools will waste ample times trying to teach children total giberish like the one you bring us here thinking that we will be so wowed by it. The Islamic schools do this while the rest of the world are discovering new vaccines, conducting space research, making fine arts and musics, making jobs and lives available to people, ect...But of course, learning about the balance beam line up in hell/heaven land is much more important and a great tool for living this life.