Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[Flores]

Originally Posted by Proud_Muslim
The Noble Qur'an 24:30

''...Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do. ''

Do you notice how the parenthesis got added. The Quran says lower your gaze, PMS adds (from looking at forbidden things)..God never said that.
The Quran says, guard your private parts, PMS says, (guard it from illigal sex). God didn't say Illigal sex, PMS did.

And if you put PMS in charge of the Quran publication, he would without a question add all sort of odd parenthetic addition to it.

Thank you PMS for showing us a great example of how muslim men have taken it upon themselves to corrupt the holy Quran.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Do you notice how the parenthesis got added. The Quran says lower your gaze, PMS adds (from looking at forbidden things)..God never said that.
The Quran says, guard your private parts, PMS says, (guard it from illigal sex). God didn't say Illigal sex, PMS did.

Please FLORES, dont mislead people:

The verse from the quran is very clear, I did not add anything , go to any quran and read the verse with the TAFSIR, I guess you know what tafsir means.

here is CHAPTER 24 from the Noble Quran, scroll down to verse 30 and read what it says, I did NOT add anything:

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe024.htm

Flores, you claimed that God did not say illegal sex while the verse and its TAFSIR all indicates that and further more:

''And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such life as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse (zina) and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful." (The Noble Quran 25:68-70)

did you read the above verse FLORES???? ...Please, dont speak about things you dont understand or you dont know for Allah will hold you accountable for every thing you write or say which is NOT TRUE, so be careful Flores.

And if you put PMS in charge of the Quran publication, he would without a question add all sort of odd parenthetic addition to it.

I will leave that for Allah( swt ) to judge you for what you have just said, you will pay for your heretical nonesense one day.

Thank you PMS for showing us a great example of how muslim men have taken it upon themselves to corrupt the holy Quran.

May Allah guide you FLORES, here is a link which has the whole translation of the holy quran in English, READ IT, Maybe you will get some benefits instead of insulting:

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/neindex.htm

And here is great link about TAFSIR:

http://www.tafsir.com

Look Flores, we can learn from each others, you dont need to be angry and start your usuall rotten garbage, we can talk and discuss with respect, so here I am offering your NICE OLIVE BRANCH, let us talk without insults...can you ?

:m:

 

[Flores]

I had enough from your IGNORANCE and I am going to refute your LIES one by one:

The verse from the quran is very clear, I did not add anything,

Yes you have added things to the existing verse. And you even brought up a completely different verse to justify your Tafsir (interpretation). WHy did you need to bring another verse from a completely another chapter. This is called being out of context. When you read the Quran, read it slowly, just like god tells us in the Quran. Don't jump to conclusions and tie verses from different chapters together. Do you even know what read slowly means, do you even know the meaning of 'Don't hasten upon reading the Quran". It doesn't mean slow in speed, or in slow motion, it means, let the words of god sink in your mind first without formulating a conclusion, let the conclusion come slowly in your life application. Learn how to read the Quran my friend...it will do you good.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Yes you have added things to the existing verse. And you even brought up a completely different verse to justify your Tafsir (interpretation). WHy did you need to bring another verse from a completely another chapter. This is called being out of context. When you read the Quran, read it slowly, just like god tells us in the Quran. Don't jump to conclusions and tie verses from different chapters together. Do you even know what read slowly means, do you even know the meaning of 'Don't hasten upon reading the Quran". It doesn't mean slow in speed, or in slow motion, it means, let the words of god sink in your mind first without formulating a conclusion, let the conclusion come slowly in your life application. Learn how to read the Quran my friend...it will do you good.

Although I gave you the link from the Quran regarding this verse which clearly shows that I did NOT add anything (24:30 http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe024.htm ) you still insist, I cant say anything but: MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU.....Ameen.

 

[Flores]

Although I gave you the link from the Quran regarding this verse which clearly shows that I did NOT add anything (24:30 http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe024.htm ) you still insist, I cant say anything but: MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU.....Ameen.

What the difference, you added it, they added it, it doesn't make a difference. Afterall, you use their site for reference, so you are comfortable with their material. The paranthesis is added and that's all I have indicated.

The Quranic verse is traslated as:
[24.30] Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=541486

What you brought to us have additions.

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth;

Could muslims be doing the same thing that christians do and are actively exceeding the limits of their religion?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

What the difference, you added it, they added it, it doesn't make a difference. Afterall, you use their site for reference, so you are comfortable with their material. The paranthesis is added and that's all I have indicated.

make up your mind, who added what ??

Come on Flores, NO ONE added anything, these words are the TAFSIR to make it easy for you to read smoothly without going to the tafsir after every verse.

 

[Flores]

make up your mind, who added what ??

Come on Flores, NO ONE added anything, these words are the TAFSIR to make it easy for you to read smoothly without going to the tafsir after every verse.

Why would I need Tafsir (interpretation). Are you saying that god is not perfect in his language that his words needs further interpretation by Sheiks and Mullas? Are you saying that the Quran is not smooth? The verse that you brought stricly states that we should lower the gaze and protect the private parts. God left this open on purpose.

For example, if I'm seeing a crime being commited (Haram), you better believe that I won't lower my gaze. I'll make sure to report everything I saw. Sex is not the only thing to protect your private parts from. Diseace, swimming in polluted waters, ect...are just some of the things that we should guard our private parts from...Why do you men single out sex? God didn't.....

 

[Bells]

Why would I need Tafsir (interpretation). Are you saying that god is not perfect in his language that his words needs further interpretation by Sheiks and Mullas? Are you saying that the Quran is not smooth? The verse that you brought stricly states that we should lower the gaze and protect the private parts. God left this open on purpose.

For example, if I'm seeing a crime being commited (Haram), you better believe that I won't lower my gaze. I'll make sure to report everything I saw. Sex is not the only thing to protect your private parts from. Diseace, swimming in polluted waters, ect...are just some of the things that we should guard our private parts from...Why do you men single out sex? God didn't.....

LOL I don't think he'll answer it. I'm still waiting for him to answer my questions in my last post on page 7 but frankly now, I realise that it's a futile wait. Plus it will save myself from having to read through another rant and rave. From what he said on page 7, it is others who must change so that he is not tempted. He doesn't appear to want to lower his eyes but will look and then whine about it that others are disrespectful to him. Not that he's disrespecting the other person for looking himself. PM is never to blame. Point the finger at others and bitch and moan about the injustices of it all. But when he's confronted with the reality or truth he becomes abusive and a whiny old woman.

 

[spookz]

proud muslim
are you strong enough to resist this?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

What the difference, you added it, they added it, it doesn't make a difference. Afterall, you use their site for reference, so you are comfortable with their material. The paranthesis is added and that's all I have indicated.

The Quranic verse is traslated as:
[24.30] Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=541486

What you brought to us have additions.

Flores, just ask yourself this question, why Allah is asking men to guard their private parts ? guard them from what ???? and then Why Allah(swt) said after that: THAT IS PURER TO THEM !!!

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth;

Could muslims be doing the same thing that christians do and are actively exceeding the limits of their religion?

Flores, I agree with you that some extremists might exceede the limits, but what is mentioned in the above verse is very clear, ZINA ( adultry ) is HARAM ( forbiden ) and this is the limit.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Why would I need Tafsir (interpretation). Are you saying that god is not perfect in his language that his words needs further interpretation by Sheiks and Mullas? Are you saying that the Quran is not smooth? The verse that you brought stricly states that we should lower the gaze and protect the private parts. God left this open on purpose.

A3ozo bellah !! dont put words in my mouth, If me, the fluent Arabic speaker and a poet cant understand sometimes some verses in the Quran, how about you flores ?????

Tafsir is very important and it is not from sheiks or mullahs, it is from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh ), he used to explain to the companions what these verses meant and why they were revealed.

For example, the first surah in the quran, Al fatiha, if you read it, you might not understand this:

1-6. Guide us to the Straight Way, now, if you dont have tafsir, you might think straight way could mean many things, but in fact, it means, the way between hell and paradise, this sharp thin way in which people walk on in the day of judgment.....you see flores, you need tafsir to understand what this verse means.

For example, if I'm seeing a crime being commited (Haram), you better believe that I won't lower my gaze. I'll make sure to report everything I saw. Sex is not the only thing to protect your private parts from. Diseace, swimming in polluted waters, ect...are just some of the things that we should guard our private parts from...Why do you men single out sex? God didn't....

But who said, guarding your private parts mean only Sex ? but one of the main TAFSIR for this verse means SEX and other things, I already gave you the other verse that talk about that, SEX before marriage is not allowed, but dont worry if you did it,FOR ALLAH IS ALL FORGIVING...

 

[Proud_Muslim]

LOL I don't think he'll answer it. I'm still waiting for him to answer my questions in my last post on page 7 but frankly now, I realise that it's a futile wait.

You are so ambitious, why do you expect me to answer your post when you dont address my WHOLE posts ????? you just chose to pick what suits you and ignore what embarrasses your ignorance.

Plus it will save myself from having to read through another rant and rave.

You see bells, you lost the pot and now you are getting personal...

From what he said on page 7, it is others who must change so that he is not tempted. He doesn't appear to want to lower his eyes but will look and then whine about it that others are disrespectful to him.

You are really really nut, scroll up and see my answer to JAMES regarding this very issue, clearly, you just want to take a piss !!

Not that he's disrespecting the other person for looking himself. PM is never to blame. Point the finger at others and bitch and moan about the injustices of it all. But when he's confronted with the reality or truth he becomes abusive and a whiny old woman.

Getting personal wont advance your cause nor will change my mind or opinion, stop behaving like a CHILD and GROW UP.

 

[spookz]

but dont worry if you did it,FOR ALLAH IS ALL FORGIVING...

allah is not the problem, just father mustapha and sons nabil and jamal
run flo run for your life

 

[Flores]

A3ozo bellah !! dont put words in my mouth, If me, the fluent Arabic speaker and a poet cant understand sometimes some verses in the Quran, how about you flores ?????

Don't worry about me, I'm more fluent than you in arabic. I had highschool Nahwe, (grammer), and an avid lover of arabic soap operas and arabic poetry.

For example, the first surah in the quran, Al fatiha, if you read it, you might not understand this:


1-6. Guide us to the Straight Way, now, if you dont have tafsir, you might think straight way could mean many things, but in fact, it means, the way between hell and paradise, this sharp thin way in which people walk on in the day of judgment.....you see flores, you need tafsir to understand what this verse means..

No I don't, but you obviously need some Mullah to take your hand as you blindly go through the Quran.
I have a different interpretation to the straight way. And I think your tafsir is quite wrong. First, what is the properties of straight.

Straight is the shortest path:
Straight is the steepest path
Straight could be defined by two points, all it take to define a line.
Straight is uniform, clear, one way, ect.

First, let me refute your rediculous interpretation. Why would god want to guide us to a narrow line that separate hell and heaven? If anything, god should be guiding us to heaven, not a rope skimpy line. How do we obtain guidance. In our lives. So the way to heaven is in our lives, and the straight path is the sequencial decisions that we take in our lives to reach our destined end. Life is marked by birth and death, two points on line. It's a one way street. We need guidance in our life, the right decisions are always hard, steep, ect...So do you see how you have no clue what straight means?

Prophet Muhammed never offered a formal Tafseer, or we would have two books, the Quran, and what the Quran means....Very nice..huh?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Flores you speak of 'eastern' men being ineffective managers in business do you also mean Chinese and Japanese men? It might help to be specific because with the term 'eastern' you stereotype all.

Quote:most eastern men are not good fathers or good husband for girls and don't know how to instill confidence in their girls.

None of them Flores? Don't you think that this is a sweeping statement needing just a little qualification or should we assume that it is only European and African men who make good fathers and husbands?

 

[Raithere]

Again what is abusive about asking someone to cover up in their country?

I seem to recall you saying that if someone is raped for not covering up they deserve it. I consider rape abusive.

Slavery was abolished by citizens within the United States

That's beside the point. Why is it okay within national borders but not across borders? Would it be okay for the U.S. to influence Mexico or Canada? How about California influencing New York? Is your 'hands off' policy based upon culture or national sovereignty? What about State sovereignty? You're the one asserting that there are situations when it's appropriate to get involved and others where it's not, how do you determine where and when it's okay or not okay?

I would like to know how you plan on giving rights to people who may not want your version of it?

This is a good point. I would think that exposure of the issues and education would be primary. Perhaps funding what rights groups do exist. How about establishing underground railroads?

charity begins at home and ends abroad.

Oh really? Then I guess we should stop sending food, medicine, and money abroad as well. How about this for a proposition? If you want to receive humanitarian aid from us then you have to legalize and enforce a bill of human rights?

You have an idea but no plan.

Apparently you believe that if a problem is too complex to resolve wholesale we should do nothing. Personally, I believe that we can make some steps in the right direction at least.

You asked me if I thought it that simple when I said that foreign women who do not want to wear obey the law should leave.

My bad, I was thinking of local women. I would assume the foreign women have the resources to leave and if they don't like it they can.

It is simply arrogance on your part that allows you to think you have a right to challenge a law in another country that does not affect you and you have no control over.

I'm human, I have the right to challenge anything I like. It doesn't mean that anyone will listen to me but I can still do it. What I don't have the right to do is unnecessarily restrict the rights of others or abuse them.

why don't you make yourself useful and find ways for single working mothers in america to afford decent childcare, or those with low wages to afford health insurance?

I do.

What right does a nonmuslim have in a muslim country to force on them what they consider obscene? What right do you have to impose your ideas on another?

What am I suggesting be imposed upon anyone? Where did I say that we should go rip the veils off of Muslim women? What I am saying is that if a woman doesn't want to wear a veil she shouldn't be forced to do so.

If one lives in the States one can always call child welfare if they think a child is being abused. Who do you call in Gambia when a child is being circumcised and the entire village is part of the ceremony? Why don't we punish Jews for the brisk? Is it 'nice' to tear the foreskin off a male infant?

I don't agree with the bris. What I'd like to know is why you think its okay to interfere with one situation and not another.

They do it all the time. A woman recently sought and found refuge while on vacation in Canada.

Yes, I'm sure they can all afford to go vacationing in Canada.

Remember it is the MOTHERS who are performing this on girls around the age of seven.

What conceivable difference does this make?

The child cannot escape on its own its the mother who must decide she does not want the girl to be undergo the ritual.

Ah, I see. So if the abuse is ritual and "religious" in nature then it's okay?

You have no idea how many educated women there are who practise this and believe it an important cultural ritual and would be horrified if you insinuated that they think of themselves as subhuman.

Indeed, you are right. I'm sure they do not consider themselves to be subhuman but there are a large number of women (even here in the U.S.) who feel that they are inferior to men simply because they are women. Many of these 'rituals' and traditions perpetuate this.

They get it but they want it on their terms. They don't want westeners coming in pretending they understand the complexity of their cultures. Many of our methods for social change and liberal ideas are workable in our society because they were bred in our society.

I have no problem with this, in fact I already stated as much.

I have nothing to do with PS and my argument has nothing to do with him either. I am asking you what you plan on doing about these other abuses. Force men to think and feel differently? That takes revolution of mind how are you going to change their minds?

Education, exposure, and argument, this is how you change people's minds. That's why I won't let PS get away with what he says unchallenged. Because just maybe someone will see that his argument doesn't hold water and change their minds.

Women are killed, raped, beaten in the states all the time, they lack the means of leaving abusive husbands all the time, what are you planning to do about that?

Where do you get off assuming I don't do anything about it?

It is not enough to say these things are bad I want freedom. If you cannot solve these problems here in the states what makes you think you can change them abroad?

It's going to take generations, we might as well get started now. The first difficulty is getting people to even admit there is a problem.

*smiles* Oh yes you are.

No, I honestly don't feel that I am. I have no problems with cultural practices and traditions as long as they're voluntary. If an 18 year old woman wants to be circumcised of her own free will, go for it. I have no problem with different cultures reaching a certain minimum of human freedom in their own manner and honestly I think that most countries are moving towards this. But there are people who would like to drag us backwards and there are small areas and groups of people where things are really bad.

~Raithere

 

[Arietta]

the humiliating and violent sexual acts against women in any country are inexcusable, and there is no blame placed up the victims, in complete disregard of their dress, manner, actions, or job even (to cover strippers, etc.) it is not anyone's place to judge certain women as rape-encouraging. Nothing tempts a rapist to rape except his desire to humiliate and harm. I agree with Raithere - you know nothing about what you are talking about.

 

[spookz]

so ahhh
lucysnow
you still mad? wanna kiss and make out? what say you? dont make me genocide these babarian ethnics!

vote here

 

[Mystech]

I disagree, women who dress revealing dress are more likely to face unwanted looks and in some cases sexual assults.

women who dress modestly dont generate LUST.

There is NO excuse for rapists whatsoever, but we should not always blame the man for the crime, it is the time for women to KEEP THEIR LEGS CLOSED AS WELL.

That's exactly right, when someone commits a violent crime against another person it's perfectly reasonable to blame it on the victem! Rape is justifyable, and the people to blame are those damned sexy jewesses and their low necklines!

I really don't see how any of this becomes a jewish problem at any point, why the hell do they take flack for shit that American's invented? Miniskirts low necklines, tons of clevage, and especialy the Bikini are ours, we like our women half naked, and by god when our men rape them it's the mens fault not the women.

 

[candy]

Sexual assult is a violent crime. It is an insult to attempt to hold the victim responsible for a criminal's action. I do not care if she is walking around in the buff it is not an invitation to rape an act that is about control over another not lust. It does not matter how lustful a male feels no means no. That said it is disrespectful not to observe the customs of a country you are visting. You should be a good guest in another land.