Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[Esoteric]

The reason a man rapes a woman is not because of the way she is dressed

If that was the real reason i would be raping every day.

Matter of fact, if that was the reason i say 90 percent of american men would be rapist(the other 10% being homosexuals).
Fundamentalist are just crazy.

 

[Xev]

spookz:
To be sure, we do say "she deserved it". In women's studies classes, they have oodles of examples of trials where the rapist was acquitted or used as a defense the victim's attire.

Interestingly, women are generally more sympathetic to the (alleged) rapist, so good prosecuters generally choose largely male juries. You figure...hey, maybe he's going to feel sorry for the victim, want to protect her. It's more difficult to awaken that instinct in the average woman, as her philathropy extends only to those she is genetically related to.

Lucy:

Guess what Xev? When you go to another country you cannot expect the same rights or even level of safety and so called justice as staying at home. I have no more sympathy for someone who ignores the rules that govern a foreign envrionment than I do for tourists exploring off the beaten track though there are land mine signs in every language all over the fucking place. I have no sympathy for a woman who wears a bikini to market when every travel guide says COVER THE FUCK UP!!!

No, being a female you probably secretly (or less secretly) feel competitive towards the victim and admire the force her attacker displayed.
Generally, members of your gender find that sort of thing exciting. Look how readily the Trojan women went to the beds of the men who killed their families and husbands.

Anymore than I do for that college undergrad from NJ who traveled to Burma to 'spread democracy' leaflets on streets of Rangoon only to find her ass in jail. What is she stupid or something? Aung sung suu chi is under house arrest but this stupid americam twit thinks she can spread democracy with her kinko copies.

Your callousness is not the issue here.

Wow Xev you can wear tight jeans and be treated with respect in a metal concert in the States or Europe? Gee that is really amazing! I wonder how many metal bands play in the third world. Do yourself a favor Xev and STAY HOME!!

For one thing, the third world has little attraction for me.
Secondly, I'm quite capable of defending myself.

I think you must be right Xev because they only seem to use force when they want pussy not children.

Evolutionary psychology. Same reason females are more sympathetic to those who attack other females.
Guess how many love-letters Ted Bundy got?
It makes perfect sense genetically, it's simply vile.

 

[spookz]

ja
true enough. yet note that equal status is a fairly new thing. full compliance takes a while and current application of laws are uneven. for instance, try rapping "provocative dress" in any major city. you would get laughed out of court..


Interestingly, women are generally more sympathetic to the (alleged) rapist,

*groans*. the bitches go on to embrace the veil as some empowerment scheme. clitoridectomy conveys status and beauty. if this is not a hint to stop meddling...

as for the rest of your shit (tho old hat), perhaps the muslims have the right approach. treat you bitches like the sub humans you really are. no even that aint right, non human is more apt

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:Your callousness is not the issue here

Neither is your bleeding heart.

Quote:No, being a female you probably secretly (or less secretly) feel competitive towards the victim and admire the force her attacker displayed.
Generally, members of your gender find that sort of thing exciting. Look how readily the Trojan women went to the beds of the men who killed their families and husbands

What are you on drugs or something? My gender? Have you had a sex change cause I'm still female. And since you do not have a window into my soul don't pretend to know what I find exciting. Gimme an alpha male anyday but raped I have never been nor wish to be a victim of (thats why I exercise judgement both at home and abroad). Trojans Xev? Get your head out of those history books and pay attention to the topic at hand. I fail to see how this relates to this particular topic. Where is the victim? who is the victim? Where is the attacker? This is about another country's laws concerning dress. Hey they want to ensure women DONT become victims of harassment while working and traveling in their country so what the hell is wrong with that?

Quote:For one thing, the third world has little attraction for me.

If that's the case then what's your problem here? What are you defending? What are you against? This law and these cultures dont affect you. Why are you railing against a law that does not inhibit you in any way.

Quote:Evolutionary psychology. Same reason females are more sympathetic to those who attack other females.
Guess how many love-letters Ted Bundy got?
It makes perfect sense genetically, it's simply vile.

Right ted bundy he is really relevent here. Where is this victim i am supposed to feel sorry for hmmm? Genetically? evolutionary psychology? Stop pussy footing around Xev if you have something to say concerning these subjects then say it and stop hinting less you look like an idiot for bringing up points of reference that haven't anything to do with my posts or this thread.

 

[Repo Man]

You know, I think this is the first time Flores and I have been on the same side of an issue. Strange feeling.

I don't expect it will happen again soon.

 

[James R]

Proud_Muslim:

Exactly, I am sure most women dont want to be raped, but their behaviour and their outrageous dress invite such crimes.

This is crux of the argument, which you're still apparently missing. <b>Nobody</b> invites rape, regardless of their dress. Sure, a women might occasionally go to a nightclub in the hope of "picking up", but she certainly does not go hoping to be raped. I would have assumed that was fairly obvious. Nor is she "asking for it" by dressing in a particular way.

Are you really saying that, as a model Muslim male (the Shield of Islam no less) you cannot resist the temptation of a scantily-clad women? Or maybe you can, but your Muslim brothers are weak. Do Muslim men, or men in general for that matter, have so little self-control that they can't stop themselves raping whenver they see an attractive woman? Are they really so weak-minded that they have to try to deflect responsibility for their actions onto their victims?

The Amazing thing is in your country and other liberal countries is that sex is available for free, your societies are very liberal and yet you have the highest rate of rape in the world...this fact tells us a lot about the motivation behind rape in the west.

You have a skewed view of the West if you believe sex is "free" there. I can only assume you mean "free" in some kind of specialised sense.

Your statistical argument is invalid, as I have already pointed out four times. Clearly you still don't understand, as evidenced by this:

But opinion polls FORM facts.

Yes. There is the fact that an opinion poll was conducted. There is the fact that x percent <b>of the people polled</b> held the opinion that y is the case. But that does not mean that y is actually the case. Not all people were polled. Not all people tell the truth. Not all people believe in true facts. Can you see how limiting an opinion poll is?

Indeed, in the U.S. for example, for every 1 rape that is reported, 10 are NOT.

That is an estimate, of course, and probably reasonably close to the correct situation.

What do you think the equivalent figure is for Syria? I hope you can back up your view.

Rape increased dramaticlly after the introduction of the miniskirt, before that, there was a rape but I think it was far less than now.

Rape has been a constant throughout history. Do you really think it has become more common over the past 40 years? Do you have <b>any</b> shred of evidence to back up that claim?

This is NOT valid excuse since you dont have any evidence about the lack of reporting in the Muslim world, I will disregard your above statement.

Double standards are great, aren't they? You will take statistics from the West as gospel truth when it suits you; when it doesn't they are decadent western lies. A second ago, you were claiming, with no evidence at all, that only 1 in 10 rapes is reported in the US, yet you refuse to make a similar guess for the Muslim world. Your bias is showing badly.

if there are another Muslim here, he/she will agree with me because this is Islamic concept regarding women issues.

So all Muslims think alike, do they? How can you be so certain that every Muslim agrees with you?

Also, I am intrigued as to how a fact such as whether women invite rape by the way they dress can be determined by the pronouncement of the Islamic faith. That isn't a religious issue - it is a simple matter of fact.

Oh I see, if the same statistics were showing Muslim country to be in the lead in rape or any other bad thing, it wont be misleading, right ???

You're the one with the double standard, not me. Biased statistics remain biased, whether they are from a Muslim or Christian or any other source.

we have some rape cases EVERY YEAR but our men marry early and the same with our women, so their sexual urge is filled at early stage, while you guys in your culture, changing girlfriends and boyfriends always create this sexual urge which lead in many cases into rape.

Equally, I could argue that early marriage, without the opportunity to have a range of sexual experience, makes a man more likely to get "sexual urges" regarding women other than his wife. This kind of stupid argument cuts both ways.

You have amazing things that we muslims should take from you, and we have amazing things that you guys should take from us, I refuse this self-rightous western attitude and this arrogant western view of the world in which what is good for you must be good for everyone else.

You need to realise that western civilisation is not a homogenous thing. People hold all kinds of different views in the west. I'm sure there are plenty who hold the same views as you do regarding women "asking for rape" by the way they dress. They're just as wrong as you are.

I take your point that the west is not all-knowing, and can learn from the east, and I agree entirely.

why we dont look at this horrible crime ( rape ) as a REACTION to the actions some women take ?????

It is seldom a reaction. It is premeditated. But, let's assume for a minute that it is. Does that justify the action in any way? Of course not. The pepetrator had a choice, and the moral turpitude of that choice is in no way diminished. The point is that the reaction is not in any way justified by the action; it is totally disproportionate.

I am not saying the rapist should be excused, FAR FROM IT, I said and I am repeating that for the 10th time that in some cases it is NOT only the mens' fault, it is womens' fault AS WELL...

What are you saying, then? It is one thing to excuse the rapist, but another to let them off with a lighter penalty. I assume you are advocating that a man who rapes a women who is "provocatively" dressed should get a lighter penalty than one who rapes a "modestly" dressed woman? Am I right?

This is the old "raping a prostitute is not as bad as raping a virtuous woman" argument.

Why you dont put your question this way, why should MEN in the west have strict control because women want to dress revealing dress ????

The reason is very simple: all people should have the right to control what happens to their own body. Thus, women have a right not to be violated by rape, regardless of how they dress, for exactly the same reason that a man has a right not to be murdered.

Can't you see that?

The example of theives apply only if you LET your house or shop open without any protection, if they break in so easily without keys then you have YOURSELF to blame AS WELL as those theives...note the word AS WELL.

You are not to blame for the crimes of another person. They chose to commit a crime. By failing to protect your house against thieves, you may have been unwise, but that doesn't make you responsible for the crime. It just made the crime easier to commit.

Do you really believe a thief should get a lighter sentence for his theft if the person he stole from was not careful in protecting his possessions?

 

[James R]

Lucysnow:

In the west we know female genital mutilation is a terrible thing. But guess what? I have had conversations with older women from Gambia who told me it was done to them by their mothers and they have and will continue to do it to their own daughters and that I should mind my own business. Well let it be. If a woman seeks protection in the West in the interest of her daughter lets give it to her. There are a growing number of african women educated and not who are sickened by the practise and working to change it and in time they probably will who knows. All I know is when african women were pissed off at Exxon and globalization they made so much fucking noise that international institutions were forced to place the issue on agenda. why the hell don't they make the same noise and use the same force for female mutilation within their own nations?

Basically because of fear of reprisals, I imagine.

Genital mutilation is a violation of the right of a person to control their own body, as I explained to Proud_Muslim above. The fact that it is a practice which is condoned in many cultures does not make it any the less barbaric.

Victims of child abuse can grow up to abuse their own children, but the fact that they were themselves abused does not excuse their actions. They had free will to make the choice.

 

[James R]

Xev:

No, being a female you probably secretly (or less secretly) feel competitive towards the victim and admire the force her attacker displayed.
Generally, members of your gender find that sort of thing exciting. Look how readily the Trojan women went to the beds of the men who killed their families and husbands.

I presume you can back all this up with appropriate evidence (?)

Evolutionary psychology. Same reason females are more sympathetic to those who attack other females.
Guess how many love-letters Ted Bundy got?
It makes perfect sense genetically, it's simply vile.

Your analysis is simplistic.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:Basically because of fear of reprisals, I imagine.

For those who would like change this is true but that does not absolve them from doing what they can to revolutionize their own culture. Reprisals generally come in the form of not being considered a suitable mate. A woman will not find a husband, she is ostracized by her community and considered an outsider.

Quote: Genital mutilation is a violation of the right of a person to control their own body...The fact that it is a practice which is condoned in many cultures does not make it any the less barbaric.

And I am not saying isnt barbaric. I also think the electric chair is barbaric. But my point is not how barbaric someone elses cultural practise is and isn't, my point is that when one enters another culture one must ADAPT themselves and ALTER their behaviour to suit their environment which is why a woman should be wise enough to know she isn't in kansas anymore and to dress more conservatively than she would at home.

Quote: Victims of child abuse can grow up to abuse their own children, but the fact that they were themselves abused does not excuse their actions. They had free will to make the choice.

Thats not the point. It is not up to members of the West to force change in anothers culture because it is abhorrent to us. There are enough educated men and women within those cultures who are engaged in social and cultural change. That being said unless there is a law AGAINST these abuses from within, and as long as women CHOOSE to continue the practise of circumsion change will not occur. I say let them do what they do until fortune raises their own Phoolan Devi.

 

[Raithere]

So Raith I shouldnt make a valid argument becuase it may inadvertently support PS?

As I said, I think you carry it too far. Mentioning that it is smart to adopt foreign customs while traveling in another country because you might be attacked if you don't is one thing. Stating that someone deserves such abuse is untenable and stating that such a situation is acceptable because we don't have the right to interfere in another peoples' culture ignores certain basic human rights. If your opinion is that people, women in particular, do not have these basic human rights then state that and we can argue it but defending such situations that exist on the basis of respecting culture dodges the central argument IMO.

Again, we can look to extreme examples to illuminate the logic; under your implied assertion that the local culture overrides human rights (or at least that it's 'their problem' to solve) white people in the Southern U.S. should still be allowed to own slaves (it was an aspect of their culture after all). Do you see a problem with this?

I agree but a woman must exercise judgement less she be deemed a stupid wench. And why would a woman travel to a closed culture knowing the limitations and not expect negative attention for wearing something considered too revealing?

Frankly, it's irrelevant.

A problem for whom? For the foreigner or for members of the host culture?

For everyone actually. Do I really need to go into the myriad ways that the objectification of women, or of anyone for that matter, is injurious to the whole of humanity? Should I refer to the cycles of abuse that are observed as women who are mistreated by men abuse and/or psychologically dominate their sons who then grow up to abuse women? How should we calculate the loss of more than half the world's population as it has historically been denied an education, a voice in government, industry, and science? Think of all the great contributions in every conceivable area that have been made by men. Count that number and subtract the number of advances made by women. The result is what we have lost because we have historically denied women the right to participate.

If women don't like it then they can leave malaysia.

You don't really think it's that simple do you?

"PAS has proposed that Islamic hudud laws (Islamic penal code) be imposed only on Muslims in states where they are in a large majority whereas in states where non-Muslims are majority, the hudud will not be imposed."

Not good enough.

It doesn't read that muslim men have the right to rape nonmuslim women or women who dress provocatively.

That's not the same thing as making it illegal.

Where do you live Raith? We do not live in a society governed by religious code, at least we don't in NY. I can fuck numerous partners, drink, walk around in my bra and tell christ to kiss my ass in public without being stoned to death. I have yet to hear someone blame rape on christian religious code.

I'm not blaming rape on Christian religious code, the problem is far deeper and older than that. But we can look to religion for the perpetuation of our cultures attitude towards women. Or have you not heard the common matrimonial pledge that reads "To love, honor, and cherish" for the man and "To love, honor, and obey" for the woman?

So what if they think we are decadent?

I don't care if they think we're decadent. I do care that people like PS state and even believe that there is little or no problem and that further objectification and ostracism is the solution for what does exist.

I have had conversations with older women from Gambia who told me it was done to them by their mothers and they have and will continue to do it to their own daughters and that I should mind my own business. Well let it be.

I guess we shouldn't step in then when Bubba smacks his kid bloody then, after all his dad beat him. Honestly, I just don't get the ethics behind allowing one person to victimize another for absolutely no reason at all.

If a woman seeks protection in the West in the interest of her daughter lets give it to her.
...
why the hell don't they make the same noise and use the same force for female mutilation within their own nations?

Please get real. How the fuck are most of those women supposed to make their escape? Besides, the problem is more insidious than that. One's culture and upbringing dominate one's perception of self and one's ethics. But just because someone is brought up to believe that they are sub-human and that the treatment they receive is morally correct does not mean that it is. Perhaps I may suggest a book or two to you relevant to the subversion of the human mind and will try "The Handmaid's Tale" and "1984".

There are a growing number of african women educated and not who are sickened by the practise and working to change it and in time they probably will who knows.

And maybe they deserve a little help.

And how do you suggest we accomplish this?

First of all by bringing attention to the problem and not letting people like PS get away with their bullshit. By using our political and economic power to support women like the ones in Africa or the Afghani doctor I saw interviewed, after we scared away the Taliban, who told of how she was removed from her position at the hospital, stripped of her rights and her dignity and forced to wear a veil upon threat of being hung in the soccer stadium or having acid thrown in her unveiled face.

We can jail women for wearing the veil. Place them in special schools and reprogram them. Bomb the shit out of them, belittle them, patronize them all under the banner of 'human rights' and 'justice'. bravo! Amazing!

Where are you getting this from? When did I say we should attack another country in order to force them to adopt western customs? I'm talking about freedom, the freedom to leave an abusive husband and not get burned alive for it, the freedom to choose whether or not to wear a veil, the right to an education and to hold a job, or maybe just the right not to be beaten to death by your new husband and his family when your dowry does not match their greed (a practice I was recently told about by my Indian Muslim friend when he related a particularly horrifying story from an Indian paper he was reading).

I'm not looking to export this antiseptic, popular PC, airbrushed, demographically directed, and copyrighted (tm) pabulum we call culture in this country. But I do think that all people deserve certain intrinsic rights and dignities.

~Raithere

 

[Bells]

But my point is not how barbaric someone elses cultural practise is and isn't, my point is that when one enters another culture one must ADAPT themselves and ALTER their behaviour to suit their environment which is why a woman should be wise enough to know she isn't in kansas anymore and to dress more conservatively than she would at home.

That argument would go against PM's argument in the thread about the new French laws, which were demanding (wrongly) that muslim women adapt to a more secular way dress when working or learning in Government institutes. This would result in muslim women not being allowed to wear the hijab, as well as christians and jews not being allowed to wear any symbols relevant to their faiths as France attempts to ensure its secular culture. By your argument, muslim women would have no right to protest against such an unjust law as they are living in a culture that is different to the traditional muslim culture.

Any person with half a brain who intends to travel must ensure that they teach themselves the local cultures of the countries they are visiting. It is an insult if they don't. However, Malaysia, like the French appear to be enforcing this law in their work places. Most parts of Malaysia are seen to be tourist destination with beautiful beaches. If such a law were enforced throughout the country, then tourism would be non-existent and the economy would crumble. Malaysia, like France, has many different cultures and religious groups within its boundaries. They have been able to attempt to contain the religious violence to a minimum and they have also shown respect to other non-muslim religious beliefs within the Malaysian culture. For that they should be praised. However, like France, they should be criticised for attempting to enforce a code of dress upon the people.

And what amazes me is that this code of dress is not imposed on all within the country, but only on the female workers. Why not impose it on the bikini clad women who spread themselves out to dry and brown on the Malaysian beaches? After all, they are dressed much more provocatively than women dressed to work in an office. The reason why such a law on a code of dress is not applied to all is because of one thing. Money. Tourists bring in money, and to try to tell the tourists that their lovely beaches can no longer be used in the way it was before, that the women would have to cover up to reduce the chance of rape or assaults, well the tourists would stop coming and the economy collapses. It is hypocratic and ridiculous.

To claim that non-muslim women who work in the private sector should forced to dress as the Government tells them in a bid to stop sexual assaults, but then to go on any beach in Malaysia and see women walking around wearing literally next to nothing, see these women sitting in beach side restaurants and in the shops wearing just a bikini and a sarong, etc, how is it that the non-muslim women must cover up (differently to what they are wearing now to the office) if they work there? Women who go to work in the office or a store usually dress conservatively anyway. What kind of further dress codes are they trying to imply? What a woman cannot wear a business skirt anymore? Her shirt must be buttoned all the way to her throat? Should they cover themselves completely with a long coat hiding themselves underneath it so that nothing is seen but only imagined? Is it not hypocritical? If one's dress were a cause in sexual assaults, then why isn't it a law that all women in Malaysia must now dress conservatively, regardless of where you are or who you are? If they were so concerned by the threat of sexual assaults caused by the way women dressed, then the beaches would close and women's swim suits would have to be banned as they show off more of the body than a sleeveless top or mini skirt would. Why don't they say to hell with the tourist dollars and enforce the law all over so that the men there would not be tempted by the scantily clad women on the beaches? If they were so concerned about the causal factor between women's dress and sexaul assaults, that is how the law should be.

The law in Malaysia is just as wrong as the French law. Like the French laws regarding the hijab, it punishes a group of people for their religious beliefs.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:Stating that someone deserves such abuse is untenable and stating that such a situation is acceptable because we don't have the right to interfere in another peoples' culture ignores certain basic human rights. If your opinion is that people, women in particular, do not have these basic human rights then state that and we can argue it but defending such situations that exist on the basis of respecting culture dodges the central argument IMO.

Again what is abusive about asking someone to cover up in their country? The fact is that a western woman in many countries will be harassed if she is loosely dressed. Now if a woman INSISTS on using her right to dress loosely in another country where it is not considered acceptable, where they will view her as a 'easy' then in my opinion she is an idiot. She set herself up. People should know before they book a ticket what alterations may be necessary based on the environment they will engage with.

Quote: Do you see a problem with this?

Yes and it is with your argument. Slavery was abolished by citizens within the United States and African-American's to their credit actively fought for their own freedom. It was not an easy fight but they struggled for it, abolitionists and African-Americans revolutionized the environment. You speak of human rights in other cultures when the argument centers around Malaysias dress code. But if it is human rights you are interested in I would like to know how you plan on giving rights to people who may not want your version of it?


Quote: Do I really need to go into the myriad ways that the objectification of women, or of anyone for that matter, is injurious to the whole of humanity? Should I refer to the cycles of abuse that are observed as women who are mistreated by men abuse and/or psychologically dominate their sons who then grow up to abuse women?

Dude what's the plan? How are you going to free women around the world from patriarchy when many of them do not view the issue as you do? And what form of abuse? All of them? All forms of abuse hasn't stopped in nations that are equipped to deal with them you think you can walk into someone elses culture and fix their problems without being asked and without being welcomed then best of british luck to you. Everyone here is speaking of abuse but without any specific examples of what they are talking about. Is it female circumcision you wish to change? Do you want to stop domestic abuse? Rape? Sex slavery? The selling of children by their own families in Cambodia? Indian women selling their daughters into indentured servitude? Where do we start? How do we start? Start by stopping your neighbor from beating and raping his wife, charity begins at home and ends abroad.

Quote: How should we calculate the loss of more than half the world's population as it has historically been denied an education, a voice in government, industry, and science? Think of all the great contributions in every conceivable area that have been made by men. Count that number and subtract the number of advances made by women. The result is what we have lost because we have historically denied women the right to participate.

Great we are in agreement. But what do you do about this in countries where girls arent expected to go to school? What do you do about the monetary lack which would allow governments to adequately offer health care and education to all of their citizens? You have an idea but no plan. I am amazed at your arrogance concerning the law in Malaysia. You asked me if I thought it that simple when I said that foreign women who do not want to wear obey the law should leave. Well I do. Why? Because they are visitors thats why and they have no more right to ignore local law than a Danish woman does to leave her baby out in the streets while she sits in a restaurant when visiting NY. It is simply arrogance on your part that allows you to think you have a right to challenge a law in another country that does not affect you and you have no control over. Instead of worrying over the amount of flesh women workers are allowed to show in Malaysia why don't you make yourself useful and find ways for single working mothers in america to afford decent childcare, or those with low wages to afford health insurance? What right does a nonmuslim have in a muslim country to force on them what they consider obscene? What right do you have to impose your ideas on another? Muslim women do not have a problem with the law because they already live that way it is designed for foreigners and only applies to areas where muslims are the majority.

Quote:That's not the same thing as making it illegal

What on earth gave you the idea that rape, battery, assault or murder is not illegal in Malaysia? rape is illegal in the States but rape still occurs and women still have to exercise judgement to ensure their safety.

Quote: But we can look to religion for the perpetuation of our cultures attitude towards women. Or have you not heard the common matrimonial pledge that reads "To love, honor, and cherish" for the man and "To love, honor, and obey" for the woman?

There are many women who are religious and have no problem saying those vows. One is free in the West to receive a civil ceremony, make up their own vows or simply choose to have no ceremony whatsoever. What are you going to do with the religious Raith ban them from practising? Is that your idea of 'human rights'?

Quote:I guess we shouldn't step in then when Bubba smacks his kid bloody then, after all his dad beat him. Honestly, I just don't get the ethics behind allowing one person to victimize another for absolutely no reason at all.

If one lives in the States one can always call child welfare if they think a child is being abused. Who do you call in Gambia when a child is being circumcised and the entire village is part of the ceremony? Why don't we punish Jews for the brisk? Is it 'nice' to tear the foreskin off a male infant?

Quotelease get real. How the fuck are most of those women supposed to make their escape?

They do it all the time. A woman recently sought and found refuge while on vacation in Canada. Remember it is the MOTHERS who are performing this on girls around the age of seven. The child cannot escape on its own its the mother who must decide she does not want the girl to be undergo the ritual.

Quote: Besides, the problem is more insidious than that. One's culture and upbringing dominate one's perception of self and one's ethics. But just because someone is brought up to believe that they are sub-human and that the treatment they receive is morally correct does not mean that it is.

This is rich. YOu have no idea how many educated women there are who practise this and believe it an important cultural ritual and would be horrified if you insinuated that they think of themselves as subhuman. YOu see them as subhuman perhaps but circumcised or not does not mean that they see themselves that way and you are arrogant to assume you know how people feel about themselves. Do you realize how ethnocentric you are?

Quote: Perhaps I may suggest a book or two to you relevant to the subversion of the human mind and will try "The Handmaid's Tale" and "1984".

Oh please those ole books? They have been read and enjoyed. The point? How you can tie 1984 to this issue is beyond me. Perhaps you should look at the Bush administration and globalization and consider the message in 1984.

Quote:And maybe they deserve a little help

They get it but they want it on their terms. They don't want westeners coming in pretending they understand the complexity of their cultures. Many of our methods for social change and liberal ideas are workable in our society because they were bred in our society.

Quote:First of all by bringing attention to the problem and not letting people like PS get away with their bullshit. By using our political and economic power to support women like the ones in Africa or the Afghani doctor I saw interviewed, after we scared away the Taliban, who told of how she was removed from her position at the hospital, stripped of her rights and her dignity and forced to wear a veil upon threat of being hung in the soccer stadium or having acid thrown in her unveiled face.

I have nothing to do with PS and my argument has nothing to do with him either. I am asking you what you plan on doing about these other abuses. Force men to think and feel differently? That takes revolution of mind how are you going to change their minds? What is your plan? how can you change those who do not desire change?.

Quote:Where are you getting this from? When did I say we should attack another country in order to force them to adopt western customs?

I addressed it in this way because you speak of bringing your idea of freedom to people who do not see freedom in the same way and may not recquire it in the same way. When you speak of changing a culture from the outside whether is is welcome or not then force is implied.

Quote:I'm talking about freedom, the freedom to leave an abusive husband and not get burned alive for it, the freedom to choose whether or not to wear a veil, the right to an education and to hold a job, or maybe just the right not to be beaten to death by your new husband and his family when your dowry does not match their greed (a practice I was recently told about by my Indian Muslim friend when he related a particularly horrifying story from an Indian paper he was reading).

Yes these things still do happen in India and elsewhere but what is your plan? The practise of sati is illegal in India but still practised. the law is enforced after the fact so what do you want them to do? The types of social, economic, educational and cultural changes that need to take place before your idea of liberty and freedom for all is achieved is quite dense my friend. Women are killed, raped, beaten in the states all the time, they lack the means of leaving abusive husbands all the time, what are you planning to do about that? It is not enough to say these things are bad I want freedom. If you cannot solve these problems here in the states what makes you think you can change them abroad?

Quote:
I'm not looking to export this antiseptic, popular PC, airbrushed, demographically directed, and copyrighted (tm) pabulum we call culture in this country. But I do think that all people deserve certain intrinsic rights and dignities.

*smiles* Oh yes you are.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Quote:
And actually I haven't read anything so far to suggest that PM believes it is right or good or acceptable to rape women. The most he has asserted is that he believes women contribute to incidence of rape which is a whole thread on its own and it would be a good idea for someone to start such a thread. On THAT issue I partly agree and mostly disagree. I think women must use their JUDGEMENT in any given situation but I also see rape as a violent assualt having nothing to do with sexuality or what a woman is wearing, but then again I bet one could study rape in different cultural contexts and discover differences in cause etc.

And please note that I dont believe nor I think everyone is kafir and will go to hell as Flores is suggesting, she is trying to mislead you and divert the discussion into personal insults.

Indeed, you were 100%, I dont believe it is right or good or acceptable to rape women, but my argument is that in SOME cases, women share responsibility for this horrible crime by their dress.

Thank you lucy for your great understanding.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Hey don't look at me I'm not in this as an argument about which culture is better than the other. Nor do I feel that the 'west' has all the answers and we should go around telling everybody how they should behave and govern themselves. I'm the first to admit to the problems we have here and the prevalence misogyny but at least the issues are mostly out in the open here and slowly getting better.

Out in the open and slowly getting better?? you must be joking !!

For every 1 rape that IS reported, 10 are NOT reported in the U.S.A

By the most conservative estimate, each year 1 million women suffer nonfatal violence by an intimate. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report:
Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey
(NCJ-154348), August 1995, p. 3.)

What I am here for is to piss on PS's bullshit parade. Granted it's an effort in futility, he's so far gone he's all but delusional.

But you are only pissing on your intelligence and ability to accept that you are INDOCTRINATED by this BS about rape and you tend to believe that Rape is ONLY about power and it is only men's fault !! which is of course BS.

I understand that long years of indoctrination wont go away easily, but at least, I am trying .

Still I have a hard time sitting by and watching him spew loads of unfounded crap all over the place and not say anything about it. And really, your point didn't help much.

Unfounded ??? according to who ?? according to you ??

No matter how stupid or slutty or whatever the victim may be, rape is the fault of the rapist not the victim.

And that is why i am here to challenge this BS and refute it.

The enforcement (either legally or socially) of a mandatory dress code signifies a gigantic problem and the two issues are related. Just not in the way that PS imagines they are.

At least I have the advantage to live in 2 different cultures and see by my self how dress code affects men's perception of sexuality, I am sure you did not have this expereicne ?? right ?

Of course. But that's a bit different than PS's message, "There's no problem here, move along you decadent westerners." Why feed that?

feeding is good in exposing your HYPOCRISY...at least Lucy was BRAVE enough to address such issues while you guys want to sweep it under the carpet and pretend nothing is happening.

That's pretty good but one can take it too far. Its one thing if human rights are being addressed (even if not in the manner or speed one would prefer) it's another thing when the abuses are being perpetuated or ignored and hidden from view. At some point it is a human issue and we do have the right to get involved, respect for other cultures and national sovereignty be damned.

And who gave you the right to get involved ? stay fucked in your own countries SORTING out your own human rights abuses first , you see, it is this SELF-RIGHTOUS WESTERN SYNDROME AGAIN...!!

Do I have the right to get involved as SYRIAN into the human rights abuses that takes place every single day in America ???? No, I better sort out the mess in my own country first and then I can ADVICE and SUGGEST but not get involved because it is not my right to do so.

I suggest to remember this proverb after reading this article: HE WHO LIVES IN HOUSE OF GLASS BETTER NOT TO THROW OTHERS' HOUSES WITH STONES !


Amnesty finds only two EU states uphold human rights

Amnesty told Ireland, which took over the union's rotating presidency on January 1, that only two of the 15 current member states - Luxembourg and the Netherlands - could be given a clean bill of health.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1121918,00.html

Have a nice reading !

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:That argument would go against PM's argument in the thread about the new French laws, which were demanding (wrongly) that muslim women adapt to a more secular way dress when working or learning in Government institutes.

And what does his argument have to do with me?

Quote: This would result in muslim women not being allowed to wear the hijab, as well as christians and jews not being allowed to wear any symbols relevant to their faiths as France attempts to ensure its secular culture. By your argument, muslim women would have no right to protest against such an unjust law as they are living in a culture that is different to the traditional muslim culture.

You are dull if you read all of my posts and decided that people have no right to protest against a law they are living with. These people are French citizens and so have every right to challenge the law. But as long as the law stands I do not have the right to go to France wearing whatever and not be restrained from doing so.



Quote:And what amazes me is that this code of dress is not imposed on all within the country, but only on the female workers. Why not impose it on the bikini clad women who spread themselves out to dry and brown on the Malaysian beaches? After all, they are dressed much more provocatively than women dressed to work in an office. The reason why such a law on a code of dress is not applied to all is because of one thing. Money. Tourists bring in money, and to try to tell the tourists that their lovely beaches can no longer be used in the way it was before, that the women would have to cover up to reduce the chance of rape or assaults, well the tourists would stop coming and the economy collapses. It is hypocratic and ridiculous.

Bells use your brain. REad the article again. It said that this is imposed in areas that are predominantly Muslim. Now when have you ever been to the beach and seen a bunch of women laying around fully dressed? And if you did would still proceed to disrobe? In India tourists often use the beaches but they are not expected to walk the streets half naked. In the Maldives which is also muslim they have a separate part of the island for tourists precisely so there is no interference when tourists use the beach. You speak of workers in the office, well read the article and you will see that what they are asking is no different than what Orthodox jews ask when entering their part of jerusalem no short skirts, cover shoulders, no skirs with slits etc. What is wrong with that? Don't like it don't go to malaysia on vaction.

Quote:What kind of further dress codes are they trying to imply?

REad the article.

Quote: What a woman cannot wear a business skirt anymore?

Yes but of a specific length.

Quote:Her shirt must be buttoned all the way to her throat? Should they cover themselves completely with a long coat hiding themselves underneath it so that nothing is seen but only imagined?

Indeed the law is to make sure that all one can do is imagine.


Quote: Is it not hypocritical? If one's dress were a cause in sexual assaults, then why isn't it a law that all women in Malaysia must now dress conservatively, regardless of where you are or who you are?

Bells if you have travelled to Malaysia then you know that even before this law it is strongly suggested that women dress appropriately when outside city centers and tourist centers because it is predominantly muslim and conservative. The law is designed not for all the country but for PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM AREAS.

QUOTE: If they were so concerned by the threat of sexual assaults caused by the way women dressed, then the beaches would close and women's swim suits would have to be banned as they show off more of the body than a sleeveless top or mini skirt would. Why don't they say to hell with the tourist dollars and enforce the law all over so that the men there would not be tempted by the scantily clad women on the beaches? If they were so concerned about the causal factor between women's dress and sexaul assaults, that is how the law should be.

Then perhaps you should point this out to the PAS Bells I am sure they will be grateful.
Quote:The law in Malaysia is just as wrong as the French law. Like the French laws regarding the hijab, it punishes a group of people for their religious beliefs.

So write a letter to their governments and tell them that Bells in Australia does not like what they are doing in their country because she thinks its wrong. I'm sure they will take it into consideration.

 

[everneo]

Indeed, you were 100%, I dont believe it is right or good or acceptable to rape women, but my argument is that in SOME cases, women share responsibility for this horrible crime by their dress.

100% what.?

Sharing responsibility for this horrible crime.? If the rapist gets 10 year imprisonment the woman has to get 2 or 5 years.? Ofcourse they have some responsibilty not to become victims. But they are not partners in the crime. If you make this difference clear to yourself you have understood the whole argument here.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud_Muslim:

This is crux of the argument, which you're still apparently missing. <b>Nobody</b> invites rape, regardless of their dress. Sure, a women might occasionally go to a nightclub in the hope of "picking up", but she certainly does not go hoping to be raped. I would have assumed that was fairly obvious. Nor is she "asking for it" by dressing in a particular way.

Are you saying western women are very stupid not to realize that dressing so outrageously wont invite trouble ???

Sure, most women dont invite rape by their thinking, but by dressing revealing dress they ' unintentionally' invite such crime.

I think women in the west are taught since young age to show their sexuality, and here where is the problem, that is why you have so much sexual crimes.

Are you really saying that, as a model Muslim male (the Shield of Islam no less) you cannot resist the temptation of a scantily-clad women? Or maybe you can, but your Muslim brothers are weak.

Of course I can resist such temptation, but why should I go through this experience just because some women want to dress outrageous cloth ??? isnt that an assult on my right to live without any psychological pressure ???

you know as a man, fighting temptation specially sexual requires special powers, so I can resist ( and I did resist many times in the campus ) but my concern is about those WIERD WEAK men ( muslims and non-muslims alike ) who cant resist and have no control ?? so basicly asking women to dress modestly is PROTECTION for both.

Do Muslim men, or men in general for that matter, have so little self-control that they can't stop themselves raping whenver they see an attractive woman? Are they really so weak-minded that they have to try to deflect responsibility for their actions onto their victims?

As I said, maybe Muslim men are the strongest in the world regarding sexual temptation because we are armed with very strong formidable dose of Quranic wisdom regarding ZINA ( Adultry ) so we have the advantage over others regarding that, when someone committ adultry, they feel no remorse, while Muslims have to think 10 times before they do such act because it is big sin specially if you were married.

This can explain why Rape in the Muslim world is very very low.

The Noble Qur'an 24:30

''...Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do. ''

You see, here the Noble Quran also ORDERS Men to lower their gaze and to abstain from illegal sexual acts...so Muslim men cant ignore this divine order and that is why they are protected specially if they are pious.

You have a skewed view of the West if you believe sex is "free" there. I can only assume you mean "free" in some kind of specialised sense.

Sex is FREE in the west, what I meant by that is it is EASILY obtained under many banners such as girlfriend-boyfriend, one night stand, sex after dating...etc such things DOS NOT exist in Muslim environment.

Your statistical argument is invalid, as I have already pointed out four times. Clearly you still don't understand, as evidenced by this:

The statistics are VALID, if you chose to disregard them, then it is your own problem, I hold them to be clear indication of why dress code play such a role in rape cases.

Yes. There is the fact that an opinion poll was conducted. There is the fact that x percent <b>of the people polled</b> held the opinion that y is the case. But that does not mean that y is actually the case. Not all people were polled. Not all people tell the truth. Not all people believe in true facts. Can you see how limiting an opinion poll is?

Wait a second here, we are talking about POLICE MEN opinion polls, those people dont just say opinions, they speak out of EXPERIENCE.

and what about Dr.Luchenstein, Physician at Tombs prison in New York city, worked with 170,000 prisoners over a 12 years period, he said: '' The so called crimes of passion are increasing alarmingly and will continue to do so until the principal cause is eliminated, this, it seems to be, is the present style of dress, which to say the least, is IMMODEST.
Immodest dress has a direct bearing on crime incitation, no matter how innocent the wearer may be''.

http://www.nisbett.com/leavening/creeping/cc02.htm

What do you think the equivalent figure is for Syria? I hope you can back up your view.

yes, it is about 0,73 % you see, we are not even in the top 65 countries in the world ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap ) and to back up my views, here is The Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems,( United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seventh_survey/567sc.pdf

Click on Syrian Arab Republic on the left and you will get the stats.

Rape has been a constant throughout history. Do you really think it has become more common over the past 40 years? Do you have <b>any</b> shred of evidence to back up that claim?

I do believe rape and other womne abuses increased in the past 40 years, otherwise how do you explain the rise of militant feminist movements ?????

Double standards are great, aren't they? You will take statistics from the West as gospel truth when it suits you; when it doesn't they are decadent western lies.

Why you dont say that about yourself,since it is YOU not me who is refusing to accept these statistics !!!

A second ago, you were claiming, with no evidence at all, that only 1 in 10 rapes is reported in the US, yet you refuse to make a similar guess for the Muslim world. Your bias is showing badly.

Well statistics talk by themselfs, not A SINGLE MUSLIM country is in the top 20 of most rapes..so, please, admit it and move on.

So all Muslims think alike, do they? How can you be so certain that every Muslim agrees with you?

Of course we as humans have different views and that apply on muslims, but when it comes to ISLAM's view about this specific matter, All muslims agree ( apart from those who claim to be ones by name only and not by deeds ).

Also, I am intrigued as to how a fact such as whether women invite rape by the way they dress can be determined by the pronouncement of the Islamic faith. That isn't a religious issue - it is a simple matter of fact.

You see, for a believer like me who strongly beleives GOD knows more than me and you, it is very easy, women have to dress modestly and men have to lower their gaze, the responsibility is SHARED.

That does not mean Islam let the rapists get away, RAPE'S PUNISHMENT IN ISLAM IS DEATH....show me which other country or religion or system apply such harsh pentality on rapists ???????? This is one example, a HADITH ( saying ) for the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) :

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"

This tradition leaves absolutely no doubt of the validity of the evidence of women in such cases. It establishes, first, that in a case of rape, the solitary evidence of the raped woman, in the absence of their evidence, is considered sufficient to convict the rapist of the crime; and second, that the evidence of women is admissible in such cases, and that there are no plausible grounds not to admit their evidence in the Islamic Shari`ah.

Equally, I could argue that early marriage, without the opportunity to have a range of sexual experience, makes a man more likely to get "sexual urges" regarding women other than his wife. This kind of stupid argument cuts both ways.

Well this is not true, because in your case guys in the west, when you have sexual urge and you dont have 'current' girlfriend, you need to empty it somewhere else ( prostitute for example ) while Muslim men who DID NOT try it before will be quite satisfied with what they have because they DONT know what is like to CHANGE girlfriends and tastes different women !!! got it ?

I take your point that the west is not all-knowing, and can learn from the east, and I agree entirely.

Thank you, at least we have something to agree upon.

It is seldom a reaction. It is premeditated. But, let's assume for a minute that it is. Does that justify the action in any way? Of course not. The pepetrator had a choice, and the moral turpitude of that choice is in no way diminished. The point is that the reaction is not in any way justified by the action; it is totally disproportionate.

I agree, the reaction ( RAPE ) is totally disproportionate, but again,why we dont say that the ACTION was also disproportionate ? you see, it is 2 way argument.

What are you saying, then? It is one thing to excuse the rapist, but another to let them off with a lighter penalty. I assume you are advocating that a man who rapes a women who is "provocatively" dressed should get a lighter penalty than one who rapes a "modestly" dressed woman? Am I right?

No, you got it wrong here. As a Muslim I believe BOTH men should be sentenced to death, no difference , rape is rape but I believe the man who raped this provocatively dressed woman should be given the chance to appeal and address his reasons why he raped this woman, then the Sharia judge, can view the situation and the circumstances that led to such horrible crime and sentence him accordingly.

This is the old "raping a prostitute is not as bad as raping a virtuous woman" argument.

I strongly believe as a muslim that prostitution is silent rape with fake consent.

The reason is very simple: all people should have the right to control what happens to their own body. Thus, women have a right not to be violated by rape, regardless of how they dress, for exactly the same reason that a man has a right not to be murdered.

Can't you see that?

No, I reject this argument totally, a women have NO right to dress as they please if that will generate pyschological struggle in men's minds and will generate hot LUST for sex , why should I pay from my own peace of mind just because someone want to look like prostitute???????

Women have to respect my feelings and my desire not to be tempted as well as me respecting their desire not to be looked at as sexual objects but rather as beautiful human being.

You are not to blame for the crimes of another person. They chose to commit a crime. By failing to protect your house against thieves, you may have been unwise, but that doesn't make you responsible for the crime. It just made the crime easier to commit.

You said it, it just made the crime EASIER to commit which means you CONTRIBUTED in this crime unintentionaly.

Do you really believe a thief should get a lighter sentence for his theft if the person he stole from was not careful in protecting his possessions?

Of course not, thief is thief, but the owner of this house/shop should be blamed as well for his SHEER IDIOCY, maybe the judge can remind this idiot to be more careful regarding his house and shop.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

100% what.?

Sharing responsibility for this horrible crime.? If the rapist gets 10 year imprisonment the woman has to get 2 or 5 years.? Ofcourse they have some responsibilty not to become victims. But they are not partners in the crime. If you make this difference clear to yourself you have understood the whole argument here.

100% right in what she said.

Please look up just before this post in my aswer to james about ISLAM and the punshiment of rape.

 

[Bells]

I do believe rape and other womne abuses increased in the past 40 years, otherwise how do you explain the rise of militant feminist movements ?????

HUH? What does the feminist movement have to do with the increase in rapes? That would have to be one of the most ridiculous things you've said in a long time PM. Are you equating again that the rise in women's rights and power is connected to the rise in sexual assault numbers? That would imply that men can't stand to see a woman as an equal or as a source of power or to have any power and therefore to regain that power for themselves, they rape that woman. How in the hell does a woman's dress sense have to do with the feminist movement? Are you not aware that the militant feminists are against women even wearing a dress and god forbid that dress should be in any way provocative or show any sign of femininity, are you aware they'd see that as a form of submission to the men's oppression? Have you ever even seen a militant feminist? I had one teach some of my law classes and this is a woman who refused to be sworn in as a solicitor as she'd be forced to wear a skirt to the Supreme Court in doing so, so she refused on the basis that forcing her to wear a skirt is sexist and she instead went into academia. She shaves her head and maintains a moustache that any man would be proud of (she once commented that she does not believe in ridding her body of any body hair what so ever because that would be selling out to the male stereotype). She deplored anything that was feminine in any way. She once commented that she thought that women who wore make up of any kind or jewellry were selling themselves as sex objects. And if you were stupid enough to wear a dress of any kind to her class then you'd get a comment. I wore a business dress once (and I mean once) to her class as I had a court performance assessment (in which I had to dress appropriately) that day and she accused me of selling myself out to the male dominance that existed in society just by wearing that dress . PM, are you not aware that militant feminists see women who do not believe as they do to be sex objects? Are you even aware what militant feminists say about women wearing the hijab and such? They don't see it as a woman's right to choose to wear the hijab, they see it as the man's enforcement of control and power over that woman, and the hijab to them is a pure sign of male dominance and female submission leading to muslim men beating and raping their wives. To a militant feminist, wearing a dress to work is a form of submission to male dominance, no matter if that dress were provocative or not. You don't even have to dress in a provocative way, they would still see it as a form of male dominance. PM I'd suggest that you read up on militant feminists before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

No, I reject this argument totally, a women have NO right to dress as they please if that will generate pyschological struggle in men's minds and will generate hot LUST for sex , why should I pay from my own peace of mind just because someone want to look like prostitute???????

Women have to respect my feelings and my desire not to be tempted as well as me respecting their desire not to be looked at as sexual objects but rather as beautiful human being.

And in those 2 lines here we see the whole crux of your argument. You profess to believe in women's rights to equality and in women's rights in general yet you don't believe they should have a right to dress as they please because you (or other men) get turned on and tempted? That's easily fixed PM, DONT LOOK AT THEM and therefore don't be tempted.

Why should a woman restrict herself just because a man can't keep it in his pants or just because a man has no self control? Why should the women who are in the West dress differently just because you (or other men) THINK you have a right to not have your desire to be tempted? Who the hell do you think you are? Are you not as equal as that or any woman? So why should her rights be infringed upon just so that you dont get a hard on? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder PM, if she feels beautiful dressed as she is, who are you to say that it's not? What right do you think you have to do so? If a woman wants to look like a prostitute as you so kindly put it, then it's very simple... DON'T LOOK!

Follow the words you yourself quoted in this thread:

The Noble Qur'an 24:30

''...Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do. ''

Ergo... DON'T LOOK!

 

[Flores]

PMS, What a hopeless case.

Anyways, Back to the core of the business of "Imposing dress codes". I hate to be prejudice, but I have noticed that despite the fact that eastern men are quite intelligent, western men far supercedes in managerial ability. And it really shows in the ranks..Why are eastern men so damn possessive and such micro-managers...Invisible strings and flexible codes are the key to effective management...I have no idea why the eastern world haven't cought up to such a simple concept.

Interpretation of Islamic laws are unfortunately done by men and for men. To date, I have not seen the Quran address males and females seperately, it always states: Believer men and Believer women. Yet, when the sheiks interpret things, they always pulls it in the favor of the man.

A perfect example:
Muslim men are allowed to marry christian and jewish women, yet a muslim woman is not allowed to marry a christian or a jewish man, although the Quran never made a distinction between a man and a women, nor did it even specify the religion, merely stated believers to believers. By what stretch of imagination do we interpret believers to be Muslims. The Quran is very rich in terminlogy and if it wished to single out muslims, it would have, but instead words like believers were used.

And the plight of women continues, I don't think that eastern men nor understand or are even equipped to deal with their women. That's why the eastern woman potential is quite suppressed. I don't know who said it, perhaps Plato, anyways, a man woman relationship is similar to:

A male and female riding a horse in a difficult path and the woman is blind folded. Without listening to the woman, the eastern man think that he is solely responsible for getting them to safety and for protecting the woman...He think that he has no choice but to do it alone, and may ride really fast toward his goal and miss danger and get them both killed. The blind woman is actually very sensitive and she can detect danger but often overruled by her husband. If the man learned to listen to the soft woman voice, he would have survived.

Well, the eastern man takes command, and the woman is not going to stop him because her nature is not very sure of itself. It takes a special effort to nourish a woman nature to be assured and confident of herself, but most eastern men are not good fathers or good husband for girls and don't know how to instill confidence in their girls. They view confidance as a musculine trait and label confident girls as deviants and Tom boys.. They wish for the baby boy and get very upset when they learn that they are getting a baby girl. Just like PMS says, girls to them are a symbol of weakness, delicious food, a huge risk, something to be covered, susceptible to rape, ect.... They ignorantly try to protect and cover and ignore the woman nature. They make sweep general actions and stabs in the dark to treat all the women in one manner that will ensure their protection. They put all women in the denominator and ride them with an iron fist. And they say that Islam freed women, perhaps the idealistic veiws of Islam was intended to free women, yet the muslim men who can't help themselves will see to it that this never happens... So back to the priorities and what is good for humanity..I almost forgot, dress codes, that's exactly what we need to impose here to solve all the problems of woman......it makes me sick.