Quote: Then I suggest you say what you mean. Stating that some women deserve to be raped because they acted stupidly only lends credence to the belief that women bear responsibility for their attacker's actions.
Well all circumstances in life are different wouldnt you say? I believe people need to side with caution. Look at what PM is saying and his point of view, if I were to go to a place where the majority of men think similarly wouldnt I be a silly cow for not heeding advice and covering up? Mind you I also have little sympathy for females who go off with men on a date, drink all night, go home with the guy, kiss disrobe fondle and let him crawl on top and then say "no no I dont want sex" thus placing herself in a situation where she can be taken by force. These gals make responsible women look ridiculous. If they dont know how to behave with men then perhaps they should consider a chastity belt.
Quote: I never implied force, that was
your assumption. As to the perceived 'overwhelming stance against change' I simply don't buy it. Wherever people have attained a certain level of education and freedom they begin to fight for more. To put a turn on one of Herbert's axioms; first they must know that freedom is possible. We've seen it in China and Korea, India and South Africa, all of Europe and the Americas.What I do believe we're seeing is an 'overwhelming stance against' western ideologies and foreign policies/practices. I can't say I blame them given the history but this doesn't mean that some are not crying out for help and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still try to help.
What makes you think they do not know freedom is possible? Like I have asked before how are you going to help? What do you as an individual intend to do? What is your plan? And more importantly WHO is crying out for help?
Quote:That's quite likely but I'm not willing to leave it all up to chance. I'll do what I can and speak out to promote that change.
That is fine. You can speak out as much as you like. Has speaking out changed PM's beliefs? I think not. You mentioned those who cry out for help, well I am ONLY interested in those who seek help and are in the process of helping themselves. I am not interested in those who are chained to a bed and enjoy their slave status. To those I say 'I'm happy if your happy'
Quote: I understand there are other pressing issues but that does not make these unimportant. I still don't understand what your stance really is. You seem to agree that there's a problem but then fall back to listing the 101 reasons why it can't or shouldn't be changed.
My stance is stated right above. For example if I cannot convince a woman that a love marriage is better than an arranged marriage I will respect her position. My examples of India were made only to give an indication of how complex and interrelated these issues are and why its best to leave them to people who understand these dynamics (those people of course are the activists within these countries).
Quote: Given a basic level of human rights I don't see a problem with this.
Well then we agree but I am not sure we would agree as to what the basic level would be.
Quote:Actually, the African nations were convinced not to accept the food by asinine, self-righteous, misguided, ignorant, well fed, fat-fuck American activists who think that 'organic' food is better for you and the ecology (as if there were any other kind of food than organic) and that 'genetically modified' means some Frankensteinian test tube conglomeration of fish and wheat DNA. So maybe you have a point.
Well no actually they understand that GM grain has created problems in places like Mexico where the pollen from GM killed off indigenous heirlooms. GM's (Monsanto variety) are often not self-generating placing farmers in a position where they will have to consistently shell out money for grain. Africa is not the only country to resist GM's Europe has all but banned it, a point made by African nations who believe they were pawning off on them what Europe wouldnt buy. There is no data as to the long term consequences of using GM grain so they are smart to ere on the side of caution. Personally I wouldnt want it either. And by the way many GM's are organic because they have been genetically modified to not need pesticide.
Quote:Except, regarding both of these instances, ask yourself who it was that really didn't want the food and the medical assistance? Because I can guaran-fucking-tee you that it wasn't the people who were starving or dying for lack of medical aid.
Agreed but they have a government. And unless you are willing to use military force you have to accept the decisons of said government.
Quote: Well, no Lucy. Because it depends on whom you ask about it. There are some people who don't want our help and that's well and fine but there are others who do want our help. How do we decide between them? Who do we listen to? You're making it seem as if these cultures are speaking with a unanimous voice decrying our involvement and it's simply not true.
No I am not. I am saying that you do not respect that people can revolutionize their own countries and cultures, you think they are dependent on you to do so for them and I strongly disagree with this.
Quote: But we're not only talking about people who have made a decision and now have to live with the consequences are we? We're talking about people making decisions regarding the well being of other people. What decision did the 7 year old make, Lucy, when her mother decided to circumcise her? What choice did the wife make when her husband's family killed her because her dowry wasn't large enough? What choice did the woman in New York make when she was being raped and killed and no one would intervene or even call the police? But I guess they'll just have to learn to live with the choices they made, huh?
Well you are not paying attention. There is a big difference between all the examples you gave. The seven year old is dependent on her family, she has no choice but then neither did her mother who is engaging in the ritual and doesn't think there is anything wrong with it. A murdered woman had no choice but that is no different than anyone who was killed by someone...murderers pay for the crime after the fact but that does not stop the crime from being committed. What I hear you speaking of is STOPPING or ARRESTING these acts of violence and I am saying that you cannot stop atrocity's from taking place, especially when they are taking place in the intimate environment of the family, unless you suggest cameras being installed throughout the world to makes sure people arent doing bad things.
Quote
erhaps so. Of course the flip side could be that the volunteers actually knew what they were talking about (after all, Texas gets hit with lots of hurricanes too) and the locals refused good advice because of cultural pride. That might not be the case but I find it interesting that you immediately jump to certain conclusions.
No the argument was made that the 'pride' seemed to come with the helping hand. They were not there to manage they were there as extra manpower to an already existing team.
Quote:LOL That's funny, didn't you just say, "How do you prioritize teaching a girl to read when the family cannot afford basic necessities of life ie: clean water, food, health care?" Apparently they can afford a vacation abroad but not food.
Perhaps you didn't realize it but it is the poor and disenfranchised in
any society that are the most often victimized.
Rubbish. Middle-class and wealthy women also arent free to choose whom they marry, they too are caught within cultural expectations. My example of poverty and feminism in India was, as stated above, an indication of the obstacles facing ACTIVISTS. They are in no more a position in making sweeping changes than you are BECAUSE of poverty and a over-population. Many Indian men living in the U.S go home to find a wife and she is usually educated and middle class and returns to the States to live with her husband, its all arranged and she would see absolutely nothing wrong in that. In India families take out ads in the paper looking for suitable husbands and they advertise the women as if they were advertising a car, but they have money to advertise, they see nothing wrong in that, are you going to change them too? You look at culture as only affecting the poor when it is everyone within culture who is affected by culture, middle class women from African nations also perform female mutilation on their children. My examples in the former post were directed towards your assumption that you can just walk into a culture and change something, I was pointing out what some of the obstacles towards change are within a specific culture. You read what I write without understanding what I say.
Quote: You're really reaching here to make me out to be the bad guy by putting words in my mouth. Where did I imply that
no Africans could afford to go on vacation or that they were all poor, starving, naked, and living in the jungle? Please tell me. They're your assumptions, you live with them. I believe nothing of the sort.
I was being sarcastic because of your smilie with the rolled eyes and comment about "how could they possibly afford a vacation in canada" As if an african going on vacation is unheard of. So that being the case I assumed you must have some limited views on those who live in developing countries, along with the view that they are so desperately in need of your help.
Quote:This is a non-issue, I never said that only men need to change, it has no apparent relevance to the discussion at this point unless you'd like to present it. Personally, I think it's yet another red herring. Keep reaching.
Dont speak to me of red herrings because you have said absolutely nothing to convince me that you have any idea on how to solve ANY of the worlds problems other than being 'outraged'. You are simply an idiot if you believe you can change female circumcision without appealing to the sensibilities of family and community specifically mothers and grandmothers who perform the act.
Quote: Do what we can to affect a change.
Dude talk is cheap! What do you do? What is your plan to affect social change?
Quote:You don't know
'many' or you don't know
any? I ask because if you do know some it seems rather absurd that you don't believe it. Or do you not believe that there are traditions and rituals that perpetuate it? Where then do you think it comes from?
Well I guess I dont know any. The only example I can think of is a friend who tends to run after men who treat her shabbily, but I think that is mostly a self-esteem issue not an assumption that men superior to her. She keeps choosing the same type of asshole over and over and finds no interest in the men who really like her and pursue her. Personally I think she digs it. As a matter of fact if I asked her if she thought males were superior to females she would accuse me of being absurd. I live in NY and I dont know anyone who practises any religion or tradition to the point of losing happiness, freedom or perpetuating a belief that men are better than women. The only person I know who performs ritual is a wicca witch and everything she does is to feel 'at one with the goddess'. For everyone else it is christmas, jewish holidays, you know the usual stuff. I would be interested in hearing what you notice among the people you know. I have conversations with women all the time about men but its usually about how infantile and unreliable they are or something along those lines.
Quote:Yeah, that's why anytime I'm overseas and tell someone I'm from Chicago they say, "Bang, bang... Al Capone" (I honestly cannot tell you how many times that has happened). They know what they get from the media, same as us, and the media does not present anything straight. Most people in this country don't know what's going on here. And with government controlled media in many of these developing countries, they know even less.
I have experienced different. It is mostly abroad that I became clued as to the various foreign policies that affect other countries and it was always by local papers or people. I was amazed at the awareness of people in central america concerning the United States and how it affects their lives their economy. Bolivian people are quite aware that it is an american company privatizing their water and they are angry and in the streets over the affair. In India the local poor is quite aware that it is Coca cola that has siphened all the water from their wells and selling it back to them. They are aware that dams are being built to benefit large foreign corporations when they are being dislocated and losing their natural environment and income. Mexicans are quite aware that their farmers are being shafted as NAFTA forces their government to accept low-grade and low-cost corn that local farmers cannot compete with. Yet we complain when an unemployed farmer crosses the border to find opportunity that was taken from him at home. Why do you think CAFTA created such a fuss in central america and had poor people demanding their governments reject the U.S proposal that would fuck them over in the interest of U.S corporate wealth. Why do you think FTAA conference ended with a watered down, wait and see conclusion? These nations dont want their national soverignty undermined by U.S interests, the easily perceived posers of 'justice' and 'human rights'. But your an activist right? So you should know all this already.
Quote:You know you're really starting to piss me off with these backhanded assumptions you're making about me. I began my response to this by listing off the volunteer activities I pursue and the groups that I make regular donations to but I thought better of it. I really don't have anything to prove to you nor do I need to respond to what amounts to an
ad hominem attack. You want to know what my plan is?
I put my personal time, effort, and money towards that which I believe in and this most certainly includes women's rights and humanitarian issues.
Good for you. Then you are an activist, I know many.
Quote: Oh come on. I was raised in both the Roman Catholic and Avengelical churches yet I no longer go to church, pray, or believe in such a god. Certainly we are influenced by our cultures but to say that we perform cultural traditions involuntarily is absurd. What it does take is effort, study, and thinking for one's self. Just because you'd rather be a sheep in the herd on its way to slaughter doesn't mean it's the only way to be.
And how many educated people are there who are devout christians, muslims etc? You live in an environment that supports and fosters freedom from belief, if you were born elsewhere you would have evolved differently...especially if you were born in a different caste or economic group. I grew up in an environment were all religions were regarded with interest but where none were adhered. I respect the belief of others. I was raised in a multi-cultural cosmopolitan environment where differences were accepted and often appreciated. I have been traveling since a child because my mother loved to experience other cultures and herself grew up in a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural and religious environment. I consider myself privileged and fortunate enough to have resources that many in the 'herd' do not. I do have a special pity though for catholics.
Quote: Apparently you haven't heard about Kansas forbidding the teaching of evolutionary theory or listened to a recent broadcast of "The 700 Club" but the 'we' I was actually meaning to refer to was humanity in general.
Yes I have. They have a right to do whatever they like in their communities and schools. If it is a public school then members of the community can address this in the courts under separation of church and State.
Quote: Yeah, that's right. The U.S. sent troops into Iraq because they weren't buying enough Brittany Spears CDs.
How is it our fault if people buy what we sell? If they don't want to watch our movies then they can make and watch their own movies. The only 'culture' I'm pushing is a basic set of established and enforced human rights. Such as this:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html I'm not saying that people can't do what they want they just don't have the right to oppress and violate people who feel differently.
I didn't say that they sent troops in because of Britney, but they most certainly sent them in for oil and U.S foreign investment. Take your pick, whether left or mainstream the news is the same.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/US/iraqreconstruction_030422.html
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030623&s=shorrock http://www.opensecrets.org/news/rebuilding_iraq/index.asp
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/4592/1/195
Quote: I've yet to see you advocate any action. Thus far all you seem to be saying is 'let them do it themselves'.
Yes that is what i am saying. I do agree with direct action but only when there is a request for solidarity. I am not a crusader, I do not perceive people around the world as a mass of suffering idiots. I believe in solidarity. I believe that those who pick up arms, demonstrate, change government, transform and revolutionize their own environments in their own best interest deserve solidarity and stand strong because they know what their needs are and know how to ask for help and organize. They need support but they do not need anyone to do it for them. I have a great deal of respect for the inner strength and determination of the individual determined to see change ie: Castro, Che, Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, Aruhadti Roy, Phoolan Devi, Lech Walesa, Rosa Parks (I personally LOVE that woman) Malcolm X, Martin Luther King.....All examples of people willing to stand up for what they believe and revolutionize their enviorments against what some would consider insurmountable obstacles.
You're the one making the assumptions. I'm just not willing to let someone justify abuse and violence with bullshit arguments and pleas to the sanctity of tradition.
