Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[Greco]

It appears that what we have here is a clash of civilizations, a cultural whirlwind more like a cold front meeting a warm front. Lookout for thunderstorms,tornadoes and hailstones, this could be the perfect cultural storm of our era.

There's no place to hide or take shelter on this island Earth. Button down the hatches, woop,woop all men(and women) report to your battle stations.

 

[okinrus]

Proud Muslim, your view that rape is partially the result of dress is wrong. If a women is scantly dressed, then she can only be held partially responsible for the lust that a man feels. If even that, any man could turn away if there was temptation. Society also plays a role because it determines what is taboo. Consequently, rape is the wicked choice made upon lust, not the lust itself. Thus, the women could only be held partially responsible for the man's lust, but not the rape.

I believe that most of the rapists premeditate their crime. They do not just see a women, lust after her, and then go rape her.

 

[spookz]

It appears that what we have here is a clash of civilizations

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats--what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact--if, in fact--God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time--calling upon God.

PAT ROBERTSON: Amen

 

[Flores]

What the hell? Who let those guys loose?

The funny thing is that Falwell, Robertson, and thier likes...are the exact same animal as the "muslim fundies". They preach so called guidance, their pockets get fatter everyday, and at night, they get fucked to the yingyang by top of the line mistresses.

When they die, we start hearing about the juicy stories and how Falwell was really gay, married five black women in secret, gave money to the black kid in secret, had a concubine in Malasia, was secretely a muslim, ect.....

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote: You are throwing another spin to this discussion, that really is making things worse. You, Newyork, Sex and the City, are not the American way....Hijab, Niqab and stupidity are not the Islamic way. Blanket statements are what is getting us in trouble. Noone is giving humans credit for anything, just a low denominator sweep action at everybody and stabs in the dark.

Is it that you have lost the ability to read Flores? I never said anything about the American way but made some points about myself. And for your information I carry an EEC passport (thank God). Re-read my posts Flores and then perhaps you will see the point I am trying to make and not the nonsense you seem to be responding to.

Quote:
The only code that I'm interested in is the code of conduct. One that have taken 436th place behind Dress code, hair grooming, political affiliation, religious affiliation, ect...But again, ugly people on the inside need many layers to cover up their difficiencies

Code of conduct? Well it seems this is exactly what all this is about code of contatct not the code of conduct in Flores land but in another country. If you were as well travelled as you profess then you would know that codes of conduct are completely tied to religious affilitation/political affiliation/cultural affiliation etc. Who's ugly Flores? Where are they ugly? And what deficiencies? You don't like Malaysia Flores then stay the fuck home (but gee then maybe americans would have to focus on the deficencies at home)

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud Muslim, your view that rape is partially the result of dress is wrong.

Just because you think is wrong does not make it wrong.

If a women is scantly dressed, then she can only be held partially responsible for the lust that a man feels. If even that, any man could turn away if there was temptation.

But this is not happening specially in the west and that is why you have so many cases of rape, sadly.

Society also plays a role because it determines what is taboo. Consequently, rape is the wicked choice made upon lust, not the lust itself. Thus, the women could only be held partially responsible for the man's lust, but not the rape.

Well said and MAN'S LUST can lead to rape....you see we are here orbeting in empty circle.

I believe that most of the rapists premeditate their crime. They do not just see a women, lust after her, and then go rape her.

But isnt LUST in itself a premediated factor ?

 

[otheadp]

although it's a slippery slope, it's true that "loose clothing" is related to rape.
it would be interesting to see the statistics of rape and murder for that city in a year to see whether this law actually affected the numbers.

but at the same time, while it's not a burqa, it is still a ban. a conservative move, as oppose to liberal.

the ban on visible religious symbols in France is for completely different reasons than the ban on "loose clothing", don't you agree, syrian?

it also looks like a punitive act as opposed to legitimate law out of concern for women's safety.

 

[Flores]

Quote: You are throwing another spin to this discussion, that really is making things worse. You, Newyork, Sex and the City, are not the American way....Hijab, Niqab and stupidity are not the Islamic way. Blanket statements are what is getting us in trouble. Noone is giving humans credit for anything, just a low denominator sweep action at everybody and stabs in the dark.

Is it that you have lost the ability to read Flores? I never said anything about the American way but made some points about myself. And for your information I carry an EEC passport (thank God). Re-read my posts Flores and then perhaps you will see the point I am trying to make and not the nonsense you have come back with

Actually, instead of rereading, I should rewrite. What I meant was, you are bringing another aspect to the discussion that although valid and really quite insightfull is making things worse. We are dealing with a hardwired mule person who think that you and everyone else are "Kafir and to go to hell". Literally, his dictionary of personal assessment is limited to brother/sister and kafir. His seemingly agreements with you is really sickeneing, becuse I know full well, that he's being a hypocrite. The reason being is that you are about five hundred light years ahead of Mr. PMS, and using your logic to justify his position is really vomit inducing to me. Again, I apologize for coming on like that, but that's my personal reaction to a very weird looking situation.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

And what do you suggest? We starve them further so that they reside to a sea-food diet (everything they see they eat).

As you have elonquently put it, starving men is not a good thing..let them shake a female hand once in a while, be a shoulder for a girl to cry on, talk to a female friend, get an innocent back rub, kiss a girl friend, play sports with a girl.....give them some munchies so they don't get a heart attack on their wedding night.

You know Flores, you really think I am 'Muslim fundi' ? if you go to the site I gave you in PM you will discover that I am quite the opposite of what you think, there they call me WESTERN PUPPET for being TOO LOSE and here you think I am fundie ?? isn't ironic ?

You think I want women to be suffocated in their homes and covered...etc! this is not true, I am great supporter for women's rights and I am about to finish my own site about FEMINIST ISLAM, I am also active member and supporter of these people:

http://www.mwlusa.org/

I advice you to have a look at the Muslim women leauge in the USA and try to read their articles and essays and you will understand who I am.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Considering that your dictionary is limited to sisters and sharmotas, and only few days ago, you called me a dear sister, I take it as quite an advancement in my position that you use The only other term that you know which is sharmota....I would take the sharmota position anytime over being a mule sister...

Look flores, why you dont stop this slander and instead act like as you claim a very educated woman ??? why you need to slander every time I post something ? if you dont agree with what I write, dont respond....very simple.

 

[Flores]

Now, my CPU is back in business, back to the insults....

 

[Flores]

you have my permission to post as you please now without further interruption. Flores have left the building to tend to more important things. See your sorry ass tomorrow.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:
Keep that in mind next place you're unarmed and alone at night.
To a point, you're right - the weak do "deserve what they get". But by that logic every child deserves every abuse, any man or woman more vulnerable than the next man or woman deserves whatever the world dishes out.

Guess what Xev? When you go to another country you cannot expect the same rights or even level of safety and so called justice as staying at home. I have no more sympathy for someone who ignores the rules that govern a foreign envrionment than I do for tourists exploring off the beaten track though there are land mine signs in every language all over the fucking place. I have no sympathy for a woman who wears a bikini to market when every travel guide says COVER THE FUCK UP!!! Anymore than I do for that college undergrad from NJ who traveled to Burma to 'spread democracy' leaflets on streets of Rangoon only to find her ass in jail. What is she stupid or something? Aung sung suu chi is under house arrest but this stupid americam twit thinks she can spread democracy with her kinko copies.

Quote: You argue that "might is right" - what I want is for you people to start living it. If it's okay for the Malaysians to rape American tourists, it's bloody well okay for the Americans to invade Iraq - or any other country for that matter. More importantly, it's perfectly okay for anyone and everyone to do whatever they like to you.
Somehow "might is right" ends where your precious flesh begins.
Why is that?

Re-read Xev! I said PERHAPS might makes right and that one should not be suprised by backlash. The main point I was addressing isn't about rape as the article and malaysian law address rape incidently but dress code of foriegn women in their own fucking country. Dressing however one likes wherever one likes is risky. The States had the power to invade Iraq, fine but then they should not be suprised if they suffer some consequence for the action just like the stupid wench walking down the street with her bra-less bouncing tits.

Quote: I can go to a practically all-male venue like a metal concert wearing a small shirt and tight jeans and be treated with the utmost respect.
Insofar as drunk metalheads show respect to anyone, but such as it is. The only real rule of conduct one adheres to is to stay away from the pit as the presence of a woman generally ruins things - they're too concerned about avoiding hurting her.

Wow Xev you can wear tight jeans and be treated with respect in a metal concert in the States or Europe? Gee that is really amazing! I wonder how many metal bands play in the third world. Do yourself a favor Xev and STAY HOME!!

Quote: I suspect that Aryan men simply do not have to resort to force in order to reproduce. But who knows?

I think you must be right Xev because they only seem to use force when they want pussy not children.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

[deleted quote from deleted post]

Look, I dont want to continue like that, it is very ugly, so please, STOP IT.

 

[spookz]

Quote:
..... just like the stupid wench walking down the street with her bouncing tits.

hmm
i guess the adoption of the nudist credo must yet again, be postponed

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:
Actually, instead of rereading, I should rewrite. What I meant was, you are bringing another aspect to the discussion that although valid and really quite insightfull is making things worse. We are dealing with a hardwired mule person who think that you and everyone else are "Kafir and to go to hell". Literally, his dictionary of personal assessment is limited to brother/sister and kafir. His seemingly agreements with you is really sickeneing, becuse I know full well, that he's being a hypocrite. The reason being is that you are about five hundred light years ahead of Mr. PMS, and using your logic to justify his position is really vomit inducing to me. Again, I apologize for coming on like that, but that's my personal reaction to a very weird looking situation.

But Flores how can it make things worse? My agreement with Proud Muslim centers around a western but specifically american attitude that insists it knows how other people should govern themselves, what values they should have and what laws they should inact. This is why I explained to him that though my life, values and perceptions may be different from those in other countries does not mean I will insist they share my own. I mean what is the discussion really? Rape? I don't think so because rape and harassment are only incidental. In many of those countries the incidents of rape against foreign women are probably far less to that of harassment which leads to a feeling of unsafety. There are a whole array of changes one makes when entering another culture. For example a woman sitting next to a monk on a bus in Thailand is not allowed and any local person would immediately tell you to move. Toiuching the hem of a monk is considered a sacrilege and he has to go through god only knows how many cleansing rituals after the fact. What about using your left hand to take an object out of the hands of a brahmin Indian when the left hand is considered unclean? What about touching the head of a Thai child or sitting with ones feet pointing towards a Buddha or walking into a Nepalese home with ones shoes on or walking around a hindu temple in Nepal the wrong way? All of these are modes of behaviour that one would have to alter when entering these cultures. In NY a few years ago they made a huge stink when a Danish woman left her baby out in its carriage in front of a restaurant while she was eating inside. They arrested the woman and she lost custody for a few days while they 'investigated' her. Well guess what? Danish women leave their baby carriages outside of stores all the time in Denmark, its simply safe and accepted for them to do that. Leaving a baby on the streets of NY looks strange because it isnt done and also isnt safe. She was stupid not to pick up on the clues in her new environment and alter her behaviour, not doing so led to bystanders thinking the child had been abandoned. How is a woman changing her method of dress in another country any different from any of these examples? Incidently I couldn't care less if they think I will or should go to hell. By their religious standards I could only be considered a slut but I don't live by their religious standards and their standards as yet do not affect my life....the only way it would is if I venture into their country.

And actually I haven't read anything so far to suggest that PM believes it is right or good or acceptable to rape women. The most he has asserted is that he believes women contribute to incidence of rape which is a whole thread on its own and it would be a good idea for someone to start such a thread. On THAT issue I partly agree and mostly disagree. I think women must use their JUDGEMENT in any given situation but I also see rape as a violent assualt having nothing to do with sexuality or what a woman is wearing, but then again I bet one could study rape in different cultural contexts and discover differences in cause etc.

 

[candy]

It does not matter what a woman is wearing no means no.

 

[Raithere]

but this is THEIR social problem to solve not ours. Shit men cannot even control their behaviour in the west ... we do not have the moral high ground here

Hey don't look at me I'm not in this as an argument about which culture is better than the other. Nor do I feel that the 'west' has all the answers and we should go around telling everybody how they should behave and govern themselves. I'm the first to admit to the problems we have here and the prevalence misogyny but at least the issues are mostly out in the open here and slowly getting better.

What I am here for is to piss on PS's bullshit parade. Granted it's an effort in futility, he's so far gone he's all but delusional. Still I have a hard time sitting by and watching him spew loads of unfounded crap all over the place and not say anything about it. And really, your point didn't help much.

No matter how stupid or slutty or whatever the victim may be, rape is the fault of the rapist not the victim. The enforcement (either legally or socially) of a mandatory dress code signifies a gigantic problem and the two issues are related. Just not in the way that PS imagines they are.

we don't even have some archaic religious custom to point the finger at

Sure we do.

These women aren't dullards, they are just as capable of transforming their own society but it has to be done differently and in a different time frame than what we would prefer here in the West.

Of course. But that's a bit different than PS's message, "There's no problem here, move along you decadent westerners." Why feed that?

It is not up to us to decide what laws they inact, if there is enough outrage they will transform it from within and on their terms. Someone once wisely told me that you help people on their terms and control people on your terms.

That's pretty good but one can take it too far. Its one thing if human rights are being addressed (even if not in the manner or speed one would prefer) it's another thing when the abuses are being perpetuated or ignored and hidden from view. At some point it is a human issue and we do have the right to get involved, respect for other cultures and national sovereignty be damned.

~Raithere

 

[spookz]

the high moral ground

a society that allows certain fundamental and inalienable rights to its citizens does indeed possess "the high moral ground"

now the "wench" maybe harrassed/raped. yet she has an opportunity for redress

we do not say "she deserved it." rather, the perp is pursued and punished

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:It does not matter what a woman is wearing no means no.

Gee, and when did anyone ever assume it meant yes? Strangely enough in Nepal someone shaking their head back and forth means yes not no. What does no meaning no have to do with with Malaysia's new dress code law?

Quote: And really, your point didn't help much.

So Raith I shouldnt make a valid argument becuase it may inadvertently support PS?

Quote:No matter how stupid or slutty or whatever the victim may be, rape is the fault of the rapist not the victim.

I agree but a woman must exercise judgement less she be deemed a stupid wench. And why would a woman travel to a closed culture knowing the limitations and not expect negative attention for wearing something considered too revealing?

Quote: The enforcement (either legally or socially) of a mandatory dress code signifies a gigantic problem and the two issues are related. Just not in the way that PS imagines they are.

A problem for whom? For the foreigner or for members of the host culture? YOu know after the u.s bombing of Afghanistan women were allowed to take off the veils. There is a female ngo worker who was suprised when entering a restaurant to find women still sitting separately from men and wearing their veils. Hello! the rules of contact in other cultures are different. This wasn't a problem for the women chit chatting in the restaurant it was a problem for the Canadian ngo worker. YOu know before this law any travel book stated that malaysia is predominantly muslim and conservative and that women should watch what they wear, women from malaysia who are not muslim (chinese-malaysians for example) will fight for their minority rights or simply wear what they like in their own community like they do in India. From what I read this law is designed for FORIEGN women working in the country, so what is the problem here? If women don't like it then they can leave malaysia. The article reads: "PAS has proposed that Islamic hudud laws (Islamic penal code) be imposed only on Muslims in states where they are in a large majority whereas in states where non-Muslims are majority, the hudud will not be imposed." It doesn't read that muslim men have the right to rape nonmuslim women or women who dress provocatively.

In response to pointing fingers to an archaic religious code. Quote:Sure we do.

Where do you live Raith? We do not live in a society governed by religious code, at least we don't in NY. I can fuck numerous partners, drink, walk around in my bra and tell christ to kiss my ass in public without being stoned to death. I have yet to hear someone blame rape on christian religious code.

Quote:"There's no problem here, move along you decadent westerners." Why feed that?

So what if they think we are decadent? Perhaps we are (*smiles* know I am). Whatever problems they have are their problems that they must address. In the west we know female genital mutilation is a terrible thing. But guess what? I have had conversations with older women from Gambia who told me it was done to them by their mothers and they have and will continue to do it to their own daughters and that I should mind my own business. Well let it be. If a woman seeks protection in the West in the interest of her daughter lets give it to her. There are a growing number of african women educated and not who are sickened by the practise and working to change it and in time they probably will who knows. All I know is when african women were pissed off at Exxon and globalization they made so much fucking noise that international institutions were forced to place the issue on agenda. why the hell don't they make the same noise and use the same force for female mutilation within their own nations?

Quote:That's pretty good but one can take it too far. Its one thing if human rights are being addressed (even if not in the manner or speed one would prefer) it's another thing when the abuses are being perpetuated or ignored and hidden from view. At some point it is a human issue and we do have the right to get involved, respect for other cultures and national sovereignty be damned.

And how do you suggest we accomplish this? under the gun? We can jail women for wearing the veil. Place them in special schools and reprogram them. Bomb the shit out of them, belittle them, patronize them all under the banner of 'human rights' and 'justice'. bravo! Amazing! If the Ottoman empire makes a comeback and all western women were forced to live under Islamic law and values then this issue would suddenly look different wouldn't it? Then we would consider it oppressive wouldn't we?