Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[Proud_Muslim]

That's what you think...and what do you bring for it....A weak Hadith with a silent prophet who supposidly points to the neck, wrists, and ankles...

Of course, every hadith that does not suit you is weak one !!

Your head is so convoluted and your circular reasoning is really frustrating. Didn't you say in your last post that Malasia is not imposing their religion on non muslim, only the uniform.

Oh god, do you understand English ?? Malaysia is not even imposing the hijab on non muslims !!

So you have to either admit that Malasia is imposing religious beliefs or that the Hijab is not a religious belief...Pick one, you are going to get dizzy chasing your tail on that one.

Malaysia is not imposing ISLAMIC dress on non muslims, go back all the way to page no.1 and READ the full article !

I'm not mixing, I'm showing the other prespective that you have shoved underneath the dusty carpet.

And where did you shove yours ??

Ya Salam, words of wisdom....Anyone that discusses religion and think that they are right have themselves in a bend down position with their ass up in the air. You are a genious my friend...How long have you been discussing religion on boards.?

You guess !!

It's none of their business. Country codes and regulation are not dictated by the real muslim women, it's a democratic vote.

Oh I see, like the vote the Germans gave to Hitler in the 1930s right ??? persecuting Muslims is not codes and regulations, it is BLATANT RACISM...or do you suggest Muslims to do the same ?? every french woman who come to visit any muslim country should be FORCED to cover her head ?? do you accept that ?? NO and neither me, so get real.

Indeed very civilized, at least we know about it....It's out and in the open even for idiots like you to find about it.

It bothers you that I found out about it , right ?

They say the first step in correcting problems is discovering the problem.

And you are correcting the problems, right ?

In Islamic countries, little boys and girls are assaulted in their own homes by their own family member, Mullah, and Sheiks,and the society is hush hush about it.

I think you are talking about the WESTERN CHURCHES my dear, get your facts straight.

I knew a girl who got once raped in a mosque in the women quarters by a so called Sheikh. She was four years old. Her stupid parents used to send her to the mosque to learn about Islam...Her parents found out by accident that she's being raped when she was playing with her barbies Sheikh and students.

I am not denying that such things happen in the Muslim world, but GENERALIZATION IS THE TOOL OF THE FOOLS....DONT BE ONE OF THEM..

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Flores after reading the text about the cleansing of teeth it reminded me of the arguments between Orthodox and reformed Jews regarding Kashrut laws. YOu know the whole debate about the eating of pork or separating milk from meat, not mixing up utensils used for meat and milk or whether someone should be able to turn on their t.v during shabat. I guess those who dont want to use the toothbrush are the fundamentalist types huh? But you dont live by those archaic rules (dont blame you) and it would probably be futile to try and convince those who do. You know me Flo, I think these were rules created by man and ascribed to a supreme being so any feeback I would give concerning these rules would come from the standpoint of the complete non-believer. Its interesting though, are there many rules like this?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:Forcing muslim women to take off their hijab is RELIGIOUS PERSECTION, as you dont like anyone to force you to wear the hijab, muslim women there DONT like anyone to force them to take it off.

PM I agree with you.


Flores-

Quote:So on what basis is the Malaysia government imposing a NON REQUIRED, NON OBLIGATORY dress code that they claim is islamic...The only reason, I see behind their imposition is that they like their women in uniforms much like the Nazis like the jews marked with a star on the forehead.
On the other hand, the Frensh never imposed anything, they only prophibted so called religion symbols. So again, the Frensh and Malasian and very different, the Frensh are in the business of prohibiting certain symbols (few) that they find counterproductive to their society, while the Malaysians are imposing a uniform to all women.

The article didn't say all women. It said women workers and only specified the dress code in muslim areas. And the yellow star of david was to be worn on the clothing not the forehead. The Nazis did this to openly marginalize and bring those who were jewish to noticable attention, to separate them. The dress code in malaysia is designed to force workers to blend in. But let me get this straight, its okay to prohibit people from wearing religious symbols that they find 'counterproductive' but its not okay for the opposition party in malaysia to impose a dress code they find 'counterproductive', why? What's the difference? Who is harmed by a religious symbol? Should women be forced to throw out those pretty gold crucifix earrings and men their rings bearing the star of david? What harm is there in a woman wearing a head dress if she so pleases? What harm is a jewish man wearing a yamulka? Your grounds for acceptance of one law and not the other seems purely arbitrary. Why is it so important to you that PM agrees that women should wear bathing suits? So what? He doesn't find it appropriate and I say so fucking what? He will obviously find a wife who thinks along the lines he does. He has an opinion that differs from yours and I dont know why you think it important to change his opinion. Its ironic that those who profess to be 'freedom loving folk' would like to secularize those who wish to adhere to their beliefs and practises. In my society I dont give a rats ass what the religious choose to do, its fine by me and I respect their right to think and do as they please, if they try to enforce their beliefs on those who wish otherwise then I would fight it, but only within the society in which I am a member. I feel no need to rip the head dress off of muslim women who choose to wear it. If I am invited to a conservative jewish wedding I am not going to disrespect them by wearing a low cut, sleevless, mini dress, I wouldnt do it out of respect. The problem today is that there is no respect. Everyone wants to force their lifestyle on everyone else. Why do like minded people live in the same communities? Because they want to live in peace without inteferring with the peace of others. Hasidic Jews live among themselves because they dont want outside influences, they have a right to do so. This does not bother me, I live my life and allow others to live their own. Why are we trying to monitor lifestyle throughout the world? Don't you find this attitude a tad strange? Why are we trying to monitor what takes place in communitites outside of our own? Dont you think that a little controlling? PM would no more throw a blanket over you while you are on the beach Flores than you would rip the head dress off of a muslim woman, so why dont you both just chill out. Actually I respect PM for being honest, cant be easy in this 'politically correct' environment. You want to catagorize him as a fundi and he denies being a fundamentalist. I dont know if he is or isn't but if he is why do you think he would change his beliefs, he certainly cannot change yours. We think we can brow beat those who do not agree with us and they'll soften, they won't soften, people are only available for a change in perception when they are OPEN, brow beating only closes those we try to convince. Now if we are making an argument and do not wish to convince but simply state our beliefs then thats one thing, but you strike me as attempting to change his mind. From the perspective of a nonbeliever I dont think either of you can be sure what was and was not intended by the authors of these old books you read. You both read the material and interpret it in your own way, what is wrong with both of you having your own outlook without trying to propose it as the 'right' or only way? Look at the desent Flo, I mean now the discussion has pointed to the difference between ass wiping with water and toilet paper! I consider you an intelligent woman Flores but you will not enlighten him, especially when you are not willing to concede that the same accusations you make about Islam also happen in the West all the time (perhaps its even worse did you read the link I sent you?). You bring up rape in mosques, what about child abuse scandals in the Catholic church, not to mention the stink brewing about the same allegations in the hasidic community? I couldnt be as opposite from PM as a duck from a range rover but there are some issues I can agree with him on, the rest I leave alone because I know he is religious and I'm a heathen hedonist, the perceptions and attitudes are too different to come to any conclusion. I am not trying to change his basic beliefs and he is not trying to change any of mine. You and I Flores differ greatly in lifestyle and sometimes in opinion but in any discussion we are OPEN to listening to each other and exchanging ideas even if its something we will never agree upon. In this way we have the opportunity to actually learn from each other.

 

[Repo Man]

So PM,hypothetical scenario. You are in a foreign country. It is tropical, and hot, so you are wearing a t-shirt and shorts. A large homosexual man in that country sees you in your "provocative attire", is overcome with lust, and assaults and rapes you.

Would you feel that you bore some responsibility for your own assault?

The silence is deafening. Are you afraid of a simple question? Ignoring it won't make it go away.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:Yes they were...TOPLESS my dear and BOTTOMLESS. Not only that they walked around topless, they had sex as they wish, no limit on number of wives...famous erotic dancing by many women in groups to entice the Sheikhs...Women were exploited with no rules...sex was worst than the most famous prostitue streets in Holland. DOn't give me this shit about Jahyliya having a very modest code of dress...Jahiliya was one of the worst spots in the face of the earth...Just imagine naked women, plenty of alcohol, unlimited sex, and you have just pictured Jahiliya.

LOL. And you see how they came along and ruined everyone? Hahaha!!! Dear me, this is sweet, for a moment Flores I thought you were referring to greenwich village and the lower east side back in the day.

 

[Bells]

GENERALIZATION IS THE TOOL OF THE FOOLS....DONT BE ONE OF THEM..

Lordy, how big a fool are you then

And why haven't you still answered Repo Man's question? It's extremelly valid and pertains to the argument you've put forward throughout this thread. So answer it.

 

[skywalker]

.

I am not sure where did the idea of miswak came frome. But it never was or is an order for muslims to use it. I am not sure if it was meant for pun or to piss Syrian off. But I disagree I haven't heard about it never. Using miswak should be onces choice and if some one wants to do it, fine if not then there is no sin or restrictions. Time changes and people should modrenise them self as long as they don't try to change the original writings of Quran. When it comes to Hadiths I like MARKX's idea and follow his logic. He simply don't belelive in hadith because so and so said it, and if it confilicts with logic and etc etc. He got his own criteria. Anyways I feel really sorry when PS use this profound langauge. I hope he understands the true meaning of respect and religion. Syrian if you really are muslim then you shoulnd't even call *sharmotta* by this name since it is not your place to judge. Isn't that what Allah/God taught us?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Quote:Forcing muslim women to take off their hijab is RELIGIOUS PERSECTION, as you dont like anyone to force you to wear the hijab, muslim women there DONT like anyone to force them to take it off.

PM I agree with you.

Thank you Lucy, you are the voice of reason here.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

The silence is deafening. Are you afraid of a simple question? Ignoring it won't make it go away.

Did not I tell you I DONT ANSWER STUPID QUESTIONS ?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Lordy, how big a fool are you then

And why haven't you still answered Repo Man's question? It's extremelly valid and pertains to the argument you've put forward throughout this thread. So answer it.

I dont answer stupid meaningless questions...

 

[Proud_Muslim]

I am not sure where did the idea of miswak came frome. But it never was or is an order for muslims to use it. I am not sure if it was meant for pun or to piss Syrian off. But I disagree I haven't heard about it never.

You should know sister Flores by now, she just like to bring up topics that has no basis and no connection with our discussed topic...

Syrian if you really are muslim then you shoulnd't even call *sharmotta* by this name since it is not your place to judge. Isn't that what Allah/God taught us?

Absolutely, I agree with you, I already told Flores I dont take great pleasure calling her this horrible name, I promised her to stop it, but she also was exceptionaly rude to me and she used every word in the street to insult me, this is now sorted and me and sister Flores are trying to stop trading insults and instead search for common ground between us.

At the end of the day, she is my muslim sister, she is my fellow arab and whatever happened between us, I wont allow anyone to hurt her or bother her.

 

[Bells]

I dont answer stupid meaningless questions...

How is it a stupid meaningless question? You've ranted and raved on and on about how rape can be a direct result of one's dress. The question Repo asked you DIRECTLY related to your argument. Could it be that you can't answer it without you having to retract your earlier arguments? Could it be that Repo's question shows how your argument is without true basis so you prefer to just not answer it? PM, there's a saying, 'silence is golden'. And yours at the moment on this question is so golden it's blinding.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

How is it a stupid meaningless question? You've ranted and raved on and on about how rape can be a direct result of one's dress.

I did not ranted and raved on, I argued and debated the matter and I made very good points, points that you guys cant comprehend because you are indoctrinated since early age to believe in myths and half truths theories.

The question Repo asked you DIRECTLY related to your argument. Could it be that you can't answer it without you having to retract your earlier arguments?

My argument was about MEN-WOMEN attraction....natural attraction, not sick perverted attraction between same sex creatures...I CANT BELIEVE THAT AFTER ALL THESE LONG PAGES OF DEBATES, YOU CANT EVEN RECOGNIZE WHAT THE HELL WE WERE TALKING ABOUT !!

You can debate between yourselfs such matter, I am not prepared to get into another topic now, let us stick to the rape issue and its connection with dress code, anything to add ????

 

[Bells]

My argument was about MEN-WOMEN attraction....natural attraction, not sick perverted attraction between same sex creatures...I CANT BELIEVE THAT AFTER ALL THESE LONG PAGES OF DEBATES, YOU CANT EVEN RECOGNIZE WHAT THE HELL WE WERE TALKING ABOUT !!

You can debate between yourselfs such matter, I am not prepared to get into another topic now, let us stick to the rape issue and its connection with dress code, anything to add ????

Errr PM, in case you hadn't realised it yet, rape IS sick and perverted and it is not something that only occurs between men and women. Men are also raped. The fact that their straight or gay is irrelevant. Many straight guys are raped by other men. They did not get to pick, just as women did not get a chance to choose. That is the whole issue of rape, lack of choice and consent. And since your debate was about rape and one's dress sense and whether the rapist is attracted and provoked by one's dress sense, it could therefore very well apply to a man feeling that way about another man, and in Repo's hypothetical, that other man is you. It's not another topic. You just refuse to answer it because to do so would end up in you showing how false your whole argument in this thread has been. Or do you dare say that men can't be raped? If you think that then you really do live in a closed minded world.

Now if you can't conceive of this happening to you, imagine it being another man who's a tourist and dressed in shorts and a t-shirt and some guy finds him provocative and rapes him. Would the guy who was raped be responsible for the rape? You say that a woman who dresses in a manner that a man might find provocative is partly responsible for what happens to her, how can it not apply to men as well?

This is a rape issue because men do get raped. It's not just women who are raped. Men are also raped. And if you argue that rapes are caused by a woman's dress sense, then that too would apply to women as you've argued that it is connected or linked directly to the rapes. I think it's a time you set your homophobic thoughts aside and just answered the question. Unless you're too scared to that is .

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Then Bells do some research and check to see the stats on male on male rape in malaysia so that you can direct them to PM. Otherwise it looks as if you are picking topics from out of a rabbits ass.

 

[spookz]

Then Bells do some research and check to see the stats on male on male rape in malaysia so that you can direct them to PM. Otherwise it looks as if you are picking topics from out of a rabbits ass.

bullshit
you redefine by introducing additional criteria, you restrict phenomena to particular geography.

i see disingenuous argumentation. i see nefarious agenda

the issue is a hypothetical scenario. it is neither fanciful or implausible

your bedmate will stab your conniving ass the moment you look away. you fool yourself, moron., you are expendable in his world. you just refuse to see it

troll!

 

[Repo Man]

For once, I agree with you PM. Rape is a very sick and perverted act. Do you feel that heterosexual rape is more "natural" than homosexual?

Do you feel that the urge to rape is normal?

If you are a man being raped, do you really feel that the violation is somehow worse than it would be for a woman?

And since we are still talking about a man doing the raping, perhaps the law should encourage attractive men to dress modestly, so as not to provoke same sex sexual assault.

Maybe these men should have been wearing Burkas.

In Jalalabad, Human Rights Watch received reports of commanders abducting and raping boys. A shopkeeper in Jalalabad told Human Rights Watch about an incident he witnessed in early 2003 in which Sami, a notorious commander in Jalalabad implicated in several other abuses in this report, raped a young boy:

I was looking out my window, and I saw that Sami had come to this car shop, and he told them: “Fix my car—there is something wrong.” And so they were fixing his car. Then Sami saw in the shop a thirteen or fourteen-year-old boy. Well, his car had dark windows so you cannot see in. He took the boy into the car and clearly he raped him. And he did this thing to him inside the car.63

The shop owner next to the car shop confirmed the incident: “It was a very dirty thing that happened,” he said.64

Students from Jalalabad also told Human Rights Watch that several commanders under Hazrat Ali, the main commander of the eastern region (Sami’s father-in-law), regularly abduct boys, sometimes also employing them as soldiers.65 One explained:

Many of the soldiers in the military unit with Hazrat Ali are just teenagers, and the commanders use them for sex purposes. [A police commander] in Kagi district keeps a teenage boy for this reason. . . . I’ll tell you a story. One of the soldiers, a teenage boy I know, was in a mine accident. He lost his legs. After the mine accident, I saw him in the hospital, and he said, “Well, when I had feet, I was with the commander, and he had me. He would have me. But now he doesn’t want me anymore. He doesn’t need me. And now he doesn’t even pay my medical bills.”66

Human Rights Watch also documented a case in which, according to witnesses, soldiers in Paghman abducted a boy from a wedding in October 2002. “They took him because he was a handsome man,” said one witness.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/afghanistan0703/8.htm#_Toc46287014

 

[Bells]

Then Bells do some research and check to see the stats on male on male rape in malaysia so that you can direct them to PM. Otherwise it looks as if you are picking topics from out of a rabbits ass.

And just how pray tell am I picking topics from a rabbits arse? Repo asked a valid question pertaining directly to PM's whole argument. Male on male rapes happen, and not just in Malaysia. PM has continuously stated that one's dress is directly connected to why they may be raped. So how can it not apply to a man being raped as well? Are there different standards for men? Or would you and PM dare assume that men aren't or can't be raped? Rape is about control and power over the victim. Repo only asked if PM's argument applied to a man, would that man be responsible for his own rape? After all, PM has been saying all along that women who dress in what he deems to be provocatively and are raped, then these women are responsible for the rape and the rapist is not entirely to blame. Swap the woman for a man and have the guy in shorts and t-shirt and the rapist finds that provocative and rapes him. How is that so different? It's still a rape. It's still asking in regards to PM's whole argument of provocative dress and rape. It's still asking about whether the victim should bear any responsibility for his own rape.

So the question was asked as a hypothetical and not as a factual question. It's easily answered. However his refusal to answer it speaks volumes.

__________________________________________

And as for PM's whole argument, well it seems that the reason why there are so many rapes in Malaysia is not because of the way women dress, but because their laws and punishments for rapes are so ridiculous. They are also attributing it to the amount of pornographic material that these rapists are watching. So should the women who are raped also be blamed that the men watch porno movies? The rapists only get a couple of years while the victim gets a lifetime of suffering.

In 1996, there were 1,071 reported rape cases in Malaysia. This grew to 1,323 the next year, and the upward trend looks to be continuing. In the past four months, the local media have been reporting at least one sexual assault a day. Last month, a woman and her daughter were raped by her 41-year-old son-in-law. A Dutch tourist was gang-raped at a rubber estate.

Activists concede that media coverage and the consequent rise in public awareness are encouraging more and more women to report sexual attacks. This may help explain the increase in recorded rape cases, they say. But they also note that for every 10 rape cases, nine go unreported.

Part of the reason for under-reporting lies in legislation. Local legal advocates have long had problems with the laws pertaining to rapists and other sexual offenders. They point out that the sentences meted out to those found guilty are too light, with a rapist getting only a whipping and a maximum prison sentence of just five years. Also, there is the question of definition. Under Malaysian law, rape occurs only when a man forcefully penetrates a woman's sexual organ with his penis. Using another object such as bottle or a stick, therefore, does not constitute rape.

Maybe instead of changing dress codes, the Malaysian Government should address the issue of handing down a just punishment for such a henious crime. This article is also saying the same thing. The penalty for rape is ridiculous and the men know they can get away with rape suffering only a light sentence:
Rape Laws: Unsatisfactory Sentencing

And PM, it seems that the Head of Federal Serious Crimes Division Assistant Commissioner in Malaysia does not agree with you on the provocative dress issue.

A total of 6,884 rape cases were reported nationwide between 1997 and 2001 with 209 cases for the first two months of this year, according to the latest figures released by the Federal police.

However, many rape, incest and molest cases were believed to have gone unreported. Head of Federal Serious Crimes Division Assistant Commissioner Takbir Ahmad Nazir told the News Straits Times that Selangor and Johor topped the list with an average of 25 and 202 rape cases respectively reported annually since 1997.

People who had been influenced by pornographic movies committed many of the rape cases. Police have gathered this much after questioning many rape suspects. "Suspects are greatly influenced by what they watch from pornographic Movies."

And then of course there was this gem of an article.

Although rape, domestic violence and sexual harassment may be perpetrated against victims of all sexes, statistics collated by governmental and non-governmental organizations in Malaysia have shown that victims of these forms of violence are solely or disproportionately women. Causes of violence are deeply rooted in the cultural conceptions about gendered roles of women and men in society although other factors such as alcoholism, drugs, mental health and stressful lifestyle may be argued by some researchers to trigger or intensify specific acts or incidents of violence.

Rape is an act that uses sexual violence to assert power and control. Humiliating and dominating the victims become the actor’s primary goal, urged by his feelings of inadequacy and the need to reaffirm authority of his self. Because women are seen as more powerless, they become easy prey for coping with such feelings. Many women were raped within the context that sees women as subordinate to men. In the case of rape by family members or people known to the victims, for example, female children are seen as chattels of their male parents or close relatives and female employees are seen to be subservient and vulnerable to their male employers. Stranger-rapists, on the other hand, see women as objects to vent their anger and to regain their sense of power. Stalkers who rape their victims may have been refused previous sexual advances by those or other women. They may have felt that women should not have the right of refusal and felt justified in punishing them with sexual assaults. All this reflects views about the position of women in society.

Rape has tremendous psychosocial impact on individual victims and members of society. Its detrimental effects on victims are quite well-documented. At a wider level, rape has implications on the issue of rights of women. When public spaces and, in many circumstances, homes, become unsafe places for women, they lose personal freedom and the freedom of movement. The former is a freedom under Article 5(1) and the latter is guaranteed by Article 9(1) and (2) of the Constitution. Moreover, victim-blaming, a frequent reaction to violence against women is often translated into opinions and policies about how women should behave to prevent rape. Reactions to rape by various sectors of society have included suggestions for curfews on women to accusation that women who dress in certain ways invite rape. If these reactions are heeded, women’s freedoms under the relevant articles will be further jeopardised.

What does this say? Oh yes, that SOME sections of the Malaysian society are accusing women who dress in certain ways invite rape. One can imagine what section that would be . However, the Head of Federal Serious Crimes Division Assistant Commissioner in Malaysia does not even mention dress sense but instead attributes it to pornography, after those accused and sentenced of rape were questioned. PM do you think that if these rapist pigs had said 'it's because of the way they were dressed', the Commissioner would not have said so. Police questioning it appears have shown that pornography in Malaysia is one of the greatest factors in why rapes occur. Rapes occur in countries like Malaysia as they do elsewhere, because men think that women are second class citizens. Does the Quran not say that men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah? Then these rapists in Malaysia, a predominantly muslim country, are in flagrant disregard for their own God. The more conservative muslim sections of the Malaysian are blaming rapes on dress sense and even suggesting curfews for women in a way to prevent rapes. Why? In a bid to keep women to their second class status. Instead of addressing the issue of their own inadequate laws in regards to rapes, they instead try and blame it on the women.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

For once, I agree with you PM. Rape is a very sick and perverted act. Do you feel that heterosexual rape is more "natural" than homosexual?

Although 'rape' is certainly a non-consentual violation of another individual, I
see it as a very natural behavior (especially among primates) and it does
serve a purpose as far as survival of genetics is concerned.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote: Although 'rape' is certainly a non-consentual violation of another individual, I
see it as a very natural behavior (especially among primates) and it does
serve a purpose as far as survival of genetics is concerned.

And how does rape serve survival of genetics? Are you referring to man attempting to pass on his genes? By the way I am not picking an argument, simply curious about you position and its basis.