Islam & Science

[fadeaway humper]

Good try, path, but not nearly enough to discourage the muslim faithful!

Why, just the other day I think I saw a jinn on the cover of "Nature". Ha! How's that for scientific, mmhh? Ok, maybe it was a gerbil, but still...

 

[path]

Good try, path, but not nearly enough to discourage the muslim faithful!

Why, just the other day I think I saw a jinn on the cover of "Nature". Ha! How's that for scientific, mmhh? Ok, maybe it was a gerbil, but still...

I don't really expect to discourage them, people believe what they want to and see what they want to. Just wanted to show that the entire weight of these supposed scientific revelations hangs solely on translations and new ones at that. Most of the muslims here that I have discussed with are genuinely good people IMO.
Are you sure it wasn't a gin gerbil you saw late one night

 

[7x7]

Path,

7x7 you are too easily impressed do you believe that things happened in a vacuum in ancient times? In that case it is a miracle that anything from previous ages was known by anyone else

if we copied the stories. Why they are not 100% similar. You can easily skip parts but you can not add you own. And this ADDED part is true and real?

As I said before,
As prophet did a great job to make people flowing him (with the will of Allah) why he would added something not available at pervious holy script if he was coping. If that part appeared not to be true, then he could loose all his followers.

I hope you get my point.

Where did I insult your religion?

You did not. But read the text again. They insult God. But it seems that you didn't read what you have posted…..just copy and paste. they are anti-Islam sites...

Of course we aren't because there is actually some physical evidence to support the theory of evolution while all creation has is blind faith and supposed sacred texts, no contest really.

I really don't want to talk about the evolution theory. It is endless. There is another thread about it.786 has good responses for it.

[/quote]
yes I will

Thank you….

Not explained satisfactoraly.
[/quote]

if they mention any scientific facts in the text, then I will try my best. But if they continue with the nonsense like sunset example, then I can't explain to you because this thread about Islam and science but if you need any explanation about any sentence in Quran (not including any scientific facts) then you are welcome but at another thread. Because this could ruin the thread.

You were claiming that it was all there given by allah but nothing was mentioned about it embryonic development doesn't require a modern microscope except in the initial phases. I believe you can find info on magnifying lenses created by a muslim (the name escpes me now) some 1000 years ago.

the description of the embryo development in Quran is in very early stage. Mostly before the 45 nights where fetus is about 08.0 inch or less or more. Check it out again.

First: how can someone say you are lying if you discover a fact?
Second: as what a sign that we didn't need his book to figure this out?

First: Regular people will. And if the situation was inverse. And no western scientist to approve our facts, then simple people would say you are lying.
It would be the easiest answer to deny it.

Second: the sign could vary. For atheist, there is a god for non-Muslims, Islam is true religion.
I really don't want to go into religious part at this thread but if you don't know that in Islam, the pervious religions are not accepted anymore.

Might I just remind you that you didn't write the quran or "the quran and science

No, not that what I mean.
For example, Dr Maurice Bucaille decided to learn Arabic so that he can read by himself not following what others say. If you look at pervious post of me (the 3 post quoted from his book) you can see that he changed his mind about Islam as he said. I really advice you too read his book, how he looked at Islam before and after.

But yes m you are right. This isn't about science…..

That is almost as far as one needs to go to realize what the rest of these scientific miracles are resting upon

I have answered that before. But I don't mind posting it again.

From from The Bible, The Qur'an and Science

A knowledge of the Islamic Revelation is indeed fundamental from this point of view. Unfortunately, passages from the Qur'an, especially those relating to scientific data, are badly translated and interpreted,

Why do such errors in translation exist? They may be explained by the fact that modern translators often take up, rather uncritically, the interpretations given by older commentators. In their day, the latter had an excuse for having given an inappropriate definition to an Arabic word containing several possible meanings; they could not possibly have understood the real sense of the word or phrase which has only become clear in the present day thanks to scientific knowledge In other words, the problem is raised of the necessary revision of translations and commentaries. It was not possible to do this at a certain period in the past, but nowadays we have knowledge that enables us to render their true sense.

-------------
from me

There are some Arabic words that have 3 different meanings or more. Like
Galeb means
Heart
Inside
Turn down
-------------

But if the translation is wrong, it dose not mean the Arabic text is also wrong

For you information only, as a Muslim we do read parts on Quran in prayer. If you are Arabic person or if you are not, you must read the Arabic text not any other translation in prayer, otherwise your prayer is not accepted.
Also by reading the Arabic text ONLY, you make a grace by every letter but reading another translations result no grace.

 

[786]

Good points.
And he is right that you can discuss evolution with me.
Path and anyone else if you want to discuss Evolution, then join my discussion with others in "Entropy Contradict Evolution"

By the way 7x7 is right that we have pray in Arabic not in any translation.

 

[path]

Path,



if we copied the stories. Why they are not 100% similar. You can easily skip parts but you can not add you own. And this ADDED part is true and real?

As I said before,
As prophet did a great job to make people flowing him (with the will of Allah) why he would added something not available at pervious holy script if he was coping. If that part appeared not to be true, then he could loose all his followers.

I hope you get my point.?

Every religion and system of mythology does it. The quran had to customize gods message specifically for the arabs for them to understand and accept it. Just look even to this day muslims believe arabic is the ONLY accepted language for worshipping god, sounds rather customized to me. Muhammed also had to renew and expand on the earlier message to reinforce his claims that it was a new revelation.

You did not. But read the text again. They insult God. But it seems that you didn't read what you have posted…..just copy and paste. they are anti-Islam sites...

Well I didn't insult your faith but what is considered insulting your faith? If it is merely questioning a muslims view of allah, quran and what muslims believe then we really shouldn't be pretending that we can have a discussion.

if they mention any scientific facts in the text, then I will try my best. But if they continue with the nonsense like sunset example, then I can't explain to you because this thread about Islam and science but if you need any explanation about any sentence in Quran (not including any scientific facts) then you are welcome but at another thread. Because this could ruin the thread.

Fair enough, but you don't have any facts yet only interpretations made to line up with modern science. The quran isn't about scientific fact it is about islamic faith

the description of the embryo development in Quran is in very early stage. Mostly before the 45 nights where fetus is about 08.0 inch or less or more. Check it out again.

Large enough to be seen none the less.

First: Regular people will. And if the situation was inverse. And no western scientist to approve our facts, then simple people would say you are lying.
It would be the easiest answer to deny it.

No it wouldn't be easiest to deny it because you could show them the facts you have discovered and they would look the fool.

Second: the sign could vary. For atheist, there is a god for non-Muslims, Islam is true religion.
I really don't want to go into religious part at this thread but if you don't know that in Islam, the pervious religions are not accepted anymore..

How could the quran which is not valid in any language besides arabic reveal anything to non-muslims and atheists who don't know arabic?

gotta go will answer the rest latter

salams

 

[spuriousmonkey]

the description of the embryo development in Quran is in very early stage. Mostly before the 45 nights where fetus is about 08.0 inch or less or more. Check it out again.

What do they say about it then?

 

[786]

************************************The Protected Roof********************************​

In the Qur'an, God calls our attention to a very interesting attribute of the sky:

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)

This attribute of the sky has been proved by scientific research carried out in the 20th century.

The atmosphere surrounding the earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors big and small as they approach the earth, it prevents them from falling to earth and harming living things.

In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living things. Interestingly, the atmosphere lets only harmless and useful rays- visible light, near ultraviolet light, and radio waves pass through. All of this radiation is vital for life. Near ultraviolet rays, which are only partially let in by the atmosphere, are very important for the photosynthesis of plants and for the survival of all living beings. The majority of the intense ultraviolet rays emitted from the sun are filtered out by the ozone layer of the atmosphere and only a limited-and essential-part of the ultraviolet spectrum reaches the Earth.

The protective function of the atmosphere does not end here. The atmosphere also protects the earth from the freezing cold of the space, which is about minus 270° C.

It is not only the atmosphere that protects the Earth from harmful effects. In addition to the atmosphere, the Van Allen Belt, a layer caused by the magnetic field of the Earth, also serves as a shield against the harmful radiation that threatens our planet. This radiation, which is constantly emitted by the Sun and other stars, is deadly to living things. If the Van Allen belt did not exist, the massive outbursts of energy called solar flares that frequently occur in the Sun would destroy all life on Earth.

Dr. Hugh Ross has this to say on the importance of Van Allen Belts to our lives:

In fact, the Earth has the highest density of any of the planets in our Solar System. This large nickel-iron core is responsible for our large magnetic field. This magnetic field produces the Van-Allen radiation shield, which protects the Earth from radiation bombardment. If this shield were not present, life would not be possible on the Earth. The only other rocky planet to have any magnetic field is Mercury - but its field strength is 100 times less than the Earth's. Even Venus, our sister planet, has no magnetic field. The Van-Allen radiation shield is a design unique to the Earth.

The energy transmitted in just one of these bursts detected in recent years was calculated to be equivalent to 100 billion atomic bombs similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima. Fifty-eight hours after the burst, it was observed that the magnetic needles of compasses displayed unusual movement and 250 kilometers above the earth's atmosphere, the temperature suddenly increased to 2,500° C.

In short, a perfect system is at work high above the Earth. It surrounds our world and protects it against external threats. Scientists only learned about it recently, yet centuries ago, God informed us in the Qur'an of the world's atmosphere functioning as a protective shield.

 

[7x7]

the description of the embryo development in Quran is in very early stage. Mostly before the 45 nights where fetus is about 08.0 inch or less or more. Check it out again.

What do they say about it then?

check the first page please....

 

[7x7]

Every religion and system …etc

So if Muhammad added parts to original text? Why they appear to be correct rather than wrong.?

Worshiping god?
That is a general word. Worshiping god is not only that you pray and read Quran. Islam is not just praying and reading Quran, it is more than that.

But no one complains, not the Muslims if China, India or Africa or everywhere.
I have seen many youth copied all the Quran in their mind and they can not speak Arabic. You can learn 2 small chapters to do the payer, nothing is hard. If you have seen Malcolm X film, D. Washington learned one chapter and he read it at Film. So it is not hard and all, but very easy. But that is not the subject of this thread.

But why Quran is accepted as Arabic only, I can find you many reasons…
One reason is that, It protected Quran from corruption (could be due to wrong translation or any reason) but the main reason is that Quran is very pure. You can not feel it unless it is Arabic. I can't describe this to you and if I did I could take several pages. Maybe one day if you become able to read or listen to Arabic Quran you would understand why.
You are really taking me to off-topic often here ….

Well I didn't insult your faith but what is considered insulting your faith? ….etc.

Again, you did not insult, I said they did. They wrote awful speculation\expression in the text…God is stupid or so. It hurts my feelings even if it is part of question or so. They could find probable statements\expression better than what they are using to make the point clear.
Got it?

Fair enough, but you don't have any facts yet only interpretations made to line up with modern science. The quran isn't about scientific fact it is about islamic faith

Quran isn't scientific book but it contains some or few. We are discussing this part not else.

Large enough to be seen none the less.

'maybe you read Dr Moore texts again. He describe that these details could not be discovered 1400 years ago. From 1 to 40 nights, Usually women don't feel they are pregnant before 2 to 3 month.

How could the quran which is not valid in any language besides arabic reveal anything to non-muslims and atheists who don't know Arabic?

I'm talking about scientific facts. Science is for all kind of people. So if you are able to read a translation (a proper one) of Quran and notice the scientific facts, then the message would be delivered.

 

[path]

No, not that what I mean.
For example, Dr Maurice Bucaille decided to learn Arabic so that he can read by himself not following what others say. If you look at pervious post of me (the 3 post quoted from his book) you can see that he changed his mind about Islam as he said. I really advice you too read his book, how he looked at Islam before and after.

Whatever Bucaille did you are using him and the quran as a source in your posts I am also using source material other than my own so there is no difference.

A knowledge of the Islamic Revelation is indeed fundamental from this point of view. Unfortunately, passages from the Qur'an, especially those relating to scientific data, are badly translated and interpreted,

Why do such errors in translation exist? They may be explained by the fact that modern translators often take up, rather uncritically, the interpretations given by older commentators. In their day, the latter had an excuse for having given an inappropriate definition to an Arabic word containing several possible meanings; they could not possibly have understood the real sense of the word or phrase which has only become clear in the present day thanks to scientific knowledge In other words, the problem is raised of the necessary revision of translations and commentaries. It was not possible to do this at a certain period in the past, but nowadays we have knowledge that enables us to render their true sense.

This is the habitual islamic escape hatch "you don't understand because you don't speak arabic". Well real scientific work can be translated into any language and be made understood all over the globe (somewhat surprising that an omnipotent god could't manage the same )

-------------
from me

There are some Arabic words that have 3 different meanings or more. Like
Galeb means
Heart
Inside
Turn down
-------------

But if the translation is wrong, it dose not mean the Arabic text is also wrong

Refer to above

For you information only, as a Muslim we do read parts on Quran in prayer. If you are Arabic person or if you are not, you must read the Arabic text not any other translation in prayer, otherwise your prayer is not accepted.
Also by reading the Arabic text ONLY, you make a grace by every letter but reading another translations result no grace.

See I find this so ridiculous as to be hilarious

 

[path]

So if Muhammad added parts to original text? Why they appear to be correct rather than wrong.?

I already gave you that answer, because the information was out there. The arabian peninsula wasn't isolated.

Worshiping god?
That is a general word. Worshiping god is not only that you pray and read Quran. Islam is not just praying and reading Quran, it is more than that.

But no one complains, not the Muslims if China, India or Africa or everywhere..

Because they are believers if they complained they would be complaining against allah something no believer would do.

I have seen many youth copied all the Quran in their mind and they can not speak Arabic.You can learn 2 small chapters to do the payer, nothing is hard. If you have seen Malcolm X film, D. Washington learned one chapter and he read it at Film. So it is not hard and all, but very easy. But that is not the subject of this thread..

I don't exactly see this as something islam should be proud of, " Look those people have memorized something that they don't even understand" A chimp can do the same, a parrot can learn to speak as well, sorry not impressed.

But why Quran is accepted as Arabic only, I can find you many reasons…
One reason is that, It protected Quran from corruption (could be due to wrong translation or any reason) but the main reason is that Quran is very pure. You can not feel it unless it is Arabic. I can't describe this to you and if I did I could take several pages. Maybe one day if you become able to read or listen to Arabic Quran you would understand why.

I am familiar with all the islamic reasoning behind the quran being only in arabic still unimpressed, (can you say cultural imperialism )

Quran isn't scientific book but it contains some or few. We are discussing this part not else



'maybe you read Dr Moore texts again. He describe that these details could not be discovered 1400 years ago. From 1 to 40 nights, Usually women don't feel they are pregnant before 2 to 3 month..

Here I can tell you from experience with both pregnancies my wife knew she was pregnant the next day

I'm talking about scientific facts. Science is for all kind of people. So if you are able to read a translation (a proper one) of Quran and notice the scientific facts, then the message would be delivered.

Again there are no scientific facts in the quran only some recent interpretations of some verses that some are claiming mean something scientific.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others. [3]

The Class of Hirudinea (known as leeches) consists of about 500 species of marine, fresh water, and terrestrial worms. Most are not bloodsuckers.

It's boodyplan is nothing like a human embryo of course. You put a picture on the first page that suggest that there is a resemblence. A piece of snot looks also like a human embryo. It is all rather anecdotal rather than scientific.

Then the bloodsucking. Human embryos don't suck blood from their mother. They form a structure called the placenta in which the bloodvessels from mother and fetus make close contact and exchange food. oxygen and wasteproducts by diffusion.

So far there doesn't seem to be anything remotely similar.


The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.

Well, what is this. Are we allowed to pick an interpretation at will? Why was the quran not more accurate.
You show a picture of an embryo seemingly hanging from the ceiling. And hence it is suspended. The picture is an artists impression however. he choose to have it hang from the ceiling. In real life the embryo can just as well lie down. Then it wouldn't be suspended.

i can't be bothered to do more. It all is anecdotal stuff and there is no science here.

 

[fadeaway humper]

The best part of this thread is, hands down, the picture of the chewed gum with the convenient "tooth" marks.

Goes to show just how incredibly stupid/pathetic/childish/contrived these people can get. That is quite alright, it simply defines them. The insulting thing is that they actually believe they can convince a halfway rational person. Really, who the fuck do you think is going to take you seriously?Sorry, but nobody over five years of age is likely to fall for that particular kind of scientific miracle.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

yeah..honestly. I used to see embryos on a daily basis. I wouldn't describe them as chewed out gum.

 

[786]

What do you people have to say about the Miracle I wrote. The Protected Roof. Isn't that a CLEAR understanding. The verse is too clear to deny the fact. That it was told in the Quran, when no one would know.

 

[fadeaway humper]

Oh, yeah, the protected roof. With those pretty shiny lamps, and the devil-seeking "Patriot" stars. Seriously man, how old are you? I hope for your sake you are no older than 14 or so.

 

[786]

Yeah, that is what I expected you to say. When you can't say anything against it you start to say crap. You just can't accept it. 7x7 there is no use telling them this stuff. Because even though they can't say anything against some of them, they still refuse.

 

[path]

What do you people have to say about the Miracle I wrote. The Protected Roof. Isn't that a CLEAR understanding. The verse is too clear to deny the fact. That it was told in the Quran, when no one would know.

Link it for me I don't see it

 

[path]

Yeah, that is what I expected you to say. When you can't say anything against it you start to say crap. You just can't accept it. 7x7 there is no use telling them this stuff. Because even though they can't say anything against some of them, they still refuse.

People are saying things in response either you don't understand or you don't want to.

 

[786]

It is the seventh post on this page.