Islam & Science

[(Q)]

Thus the knowledge contained in the Quraan regarding honey, its origin and properties, was far ahead of the time it was revealed.

Uh, actually the Quran was well behind the times considering the Greeks were using honey for medicinal purposes centuries before - see Hippocrates.

 

[7x7]

brother 786

thank you for answering PATH funny cliams.

 

[spidergoat]

My friend how can I clearify this to you. I have said this many time. the verse if you read them are stating what the prophets saw. Not what God saw. It is what the prophets saw. When I look at the pictures I presented. It shows me that the sun is setting in the ocean. But obviously it is not true.

Again I repeat it is what the prophets "saw".

Let me try to give you an analogy.

Just suppose I was the prophet. Ok. now when I went to the ocean, I "saw" the sun setting in the ocean.

Ok you get that. God told Muhammad what the prophet "saw". The prophet didn't see the sun in the space, to which the earth is revolving around. He literally saw it setting in the ocean.

It is what the prophet precieved. I hope you understand now.

Peace be unto you

If the prophets didn't know anything more than what most people at the time knew, why are they called prophets?

 

[786]

If the prophets didn't know anything more than what most people at the time knew, why are they called prophets?

Huh? What topic is this? Anyways let me clarify myself.

Seeing something is different than knowing something.

I "saw" the sun setting in the ocean.
But I "know" that the sun doesn't set nor rises.

Two different things, but both are true. The prophets know the truth. But what they "see" is also true.

They were human as in they had human charactaristics. They had the knowledge of things that normal people didn't know. But again you see that we are back to the term of "knowing" something.

Again,

Seeing is different than knowing.

Peace be unto you

 

[Michael]

I want to know what you "see" not what you know.

Then the verse is meaningless. There certainly are any number of pictures of the sun setting behind a mountain or beyond a desert and any number of meanings that can be attributed to them (or to a vague verse for that mater). Regardless, it would have been know that the sun didn’t set down in some dirt. However through the word use of “IN” or “INTO” it does appear that the sun is meant to set into the water?

Secondly, regarding this phrase I believe it is Persian in origin – probably Zoroastrian? It is probably related to Alexander of Macedonia’s conquest of the entire region. A thousand years later the Alexander legend was incorporated into the Qur’an. Alexander, not only famous for his military brilliance as well as debauchery, also declared himself a God. So I would image much like many of the other religious ideas floating around the ME (i.e.: the Jesus or Mosses characters) Alexander got thrown into the Qur’an for good measure.

Maulana Yousuf Ali:

“I have not the least doubt that Zul-qarnain is meant to be ALEXANDER THE GREAT, the historic Alexander, and not the legendary Alexander, of whom more presently. My first appointment after graduation was that of lecturer in Greek history. I have studied the details of Alexander’s extraordinary personality in Greek historians as well as in modern writers, and have since visited most of the localities connected with his brief but brilliant career.”

 

[786]

Then the verse is meaningless. There certainly are any number of pictures of the sun setting behind a mountain or beyond a desert and any number of meanings that can be attributed to them (or to a vague verse for that mater). Regardless, it would have been know that the sun didn’t set down in some dirt. However through the word use of “IN” or “INTO” it does appear that the sun is meant to set into the water?

Secondly, regarding this phrase I believe it is Persian in origin – probably Zoroastrian? It is probably related to Alexander of Macedonia’s conquest of the entire region. A thousand years later the Alexander legend was incorporated into the Qur’an. Alexander, not only famous for his military brilliance as well as debauchery, also declared himself a God. So I would image much like many of the other religious ideas floating around the ME (i.e.: the Jesus or Mosses characters) Alexander got thrown into the Qur’an for good measure.

Maulana Yousuf Ali:

I'm just trying to say that the verse is what he saw, not what he knew. How hard is it to realize that?

Peace be unto you

 

[Michael]

. . . but the phrase is correct regarding the order.

No - as I explained.

so are these in order for the fetus like I have written before? YES or NO?

No

7x7: Explain to me –

What does it mean to “hear”?

To “see”?

To “understand”?

again I'm saying you generalize The brain?

No, I wasn’t generalizing about the brain’s development. I was following the exact protocol of what you used when writing about the ear and eye. I was simply applying those same criteria to the Brain. And what did we find out – Well, for one the ear and eye develop (according to Prof. Moore) simultaneously (although the eye may develop before) and secondly, that the brain precedes both by half a week.

Also, I demonstrated over again and again how the “interpretations” you were using were acting deceitful (or at the least negligent) but probably fraudulent and cunningly considering they were from a learned source.

Lets see if part of the brain works first and that part is not responsible for hearing and seeing , then the problem has been solved.

That’s why I’m waiting for you to describe that it means to hear, see, and understand.

7x7, truly, you can say, well to “hear” is to make a movement in the womb in conjunction to a piercingly loud sound and to “see” is to see at a vision of 20:20 and to understand is to do advanced-calculus – See Michael they all develop JUST as the Qur’an states!

And that’s crap and THAT is exactly what you are doing. And that is exactly why it IS true that the verse can be made to mean what ever it is you want it to mean. And as such you will always find someone who will tell you, don’t worry (or think) 7x7 it is correct. And you’d be right with that!

I don't agree; In Qur’an every sentence is well planed. And they mean a specific "meanings". MAYBE we sometimes make mistakes as HUMAN, while trying to discover the meanings but that s not a general case and that dose not mean that the Qur’an is wrong. Again for you, it seems we have taken (as you claim) only the correct information from ancient Greek medicine. Why we don't include some of their mistakes?

1) With the liberal “interpretation” you have demonstrated thus far it will always be correct – to you.

2) I think it’s wrong on the very point we’re discussing. Not to mention many other versus.

3) The point about the Greek medicine is that it was well known in the Ancient world for 1000s of years prior to the advent of Islam and as such it is not unsurprising that it ended up on your list of miraculous premonitions from God in the Qur’an.

- So let me ask you, what do you think about the honey in the Qur’an now that you know it was well known for AT LEAST 1000 years before the Qur’an was written?

No the first three are real and the other three and legends or myth stories.

No there is no evidence that the first three are any more real than the last three.

The first three ended up in the Qur’an just as the Honey Verse did. They were taken from common Myth and Folk Lore around the Middle East and incorporated into the Qur’an. That simple. Anything other than that is just wishful thinking on your part.

Explain to me why the Chinese or Amercians or Japanese or Aborginals in AU do not have ANY of the stories found in the Qur’an / Middle East?

Why?

Ok, now for example, when history books talk about the Alexander the Macedonian? Are these history books based on myth or real stories?

The difference being that there are contemporary buildings and works attributed to Alexander and this explains the rapid expansion and Hellenization of the Middle East - while on the other hand there are no contemporary evidence for any of the Mythical characters such as Noah, Mosses or Jesus. If there are please just list one for each thank you.

But I have question: why Quran don't tell the history of Arabia (myth stories from Arabia) instead of what you call Middle East stories (instead of prophets' stories).Arabia had full of myth stories, but they are not included because they are myth NOT real.

That’s a good one!

Ahhh . . . Noah .. . . . Jesus - - etcetera … these ARE Mythical people!!!!

Arabia had full of myth stories, but they are not included because they are myth NOT real.

Except for ahhh maybe Allah?

They are no ME stories. They are stories of prophets LIVED in what is called now ME. God sent thousands of messengers and prophets , but the stories of Moses and Issa (Jesus) are the most important for US and For our religion.

I see now.

So if that’s the case then the explanation must be that all the other religions and myths are from Prophets sent to the Ancient Chinese and Americans and Japanese from Allah. Just that only the Arabic got it right? – funny that, and are you by any chance Arabic?

No…
Arabs were idol worship but they believed in Allah exists. Nothing like moon Allah or sun Allah. (multiple Gods , Musrekeen in Arabic)

So are you telling me that an Arabic God that was represented by the moon and was called Allah was not worshipped in Arabia in pre-Islamic days? YES or NO?

Also, why is there a moon on above all else on Mosques?

What is the significance?

IS it a coincident that Allah was worshipped as a moon god then and that the places of worship for Allah today still retain a moon symbol?

I’m seriously curious – why the moon symbol above all else on the Mosques?

(It reminds me of The Cross – another "pagan" symbol.)

 

[Michael]

I'm just trying to say that the verse is what he saw, not what he knew. How hard is it to realize that?

That's just your interpretation to try and explain-away the anomaly of “INTO / IN” water.

I think a better explanation is that the Persian Legends of Alexander were simply incorporated into the Qur’an at what ever time the Qur’an was written down by whom ever were responsible for writing it down and canonizing it. It’s a much simpler explaination.

 

[786]

That's just your interpretation to try and explain-away the anomaly of “INTO / IN” water.

I think a better explanation is that the Persian Legends of Alexander were simply incorporated into the Qur’an at what ever time the Qur’an was written down by whom ever were responsible for writing it down and canonizing it. It’s a much simpler explaination.

Man I would also use the words "in" and "into". Because that is what I see. Again you are using what you "know" not what you "see." I have already explained that "knowing" and "seeing" are very different.

 

[Michael]

Man I would also use the words "in" and "into". Because that is what I see. Again you are using what you "know" not what you "see." I have already explained that "knowing" and "seeing" are very different.

786, I understand what you are saying. I just think that a more simple explanation is that the verse is a modification of Persian mythology.

As it stands, the verse doesn’t have much meaning does it?

Question: Do you think that Alexander of Macedonia was a Muslim Prophet from God blessed to kill and conquer the Persians or just a Great Military General that happened to Attack the Persians at a time when Persia was down on its chips?

 

[786]

Really don't know. Maybe but maybe not. I really don't know much about this. Maybe someone else may be of some help.

Peace be unto you

 

[path]

Here are examples.


Do you think I need to show you more examples or did I get my point through?



Peace be unto you

Okay so at one point in the quran allah says "settled place" but actually means "some distant place in the universe near alpha lyrae" and in another he says "setting in a muddy spring" but actually means "the sun is going down because the earth is rotating, the sun is actually standing still in relation to the earth out in space, but it itself is actually travelling towards a distant place near Alpha Lyrae" Can I please get a break from the nonsense? If the quran is so vague as you make it out to be anything in it can be interpreted in any way you wish which doesn't make for a very concise document supposedly from the hand of god. I thought the quran is supposed to be an "easy to understand guide" isn't that stated in the quran itself. What happened to allahs knowledge of the universe why use the term muddy spring if you know it is incorrect, don't give me any "because muhammed saw it" nonsense. This is supposed to be allah the all knower writing here, revealing his message for all time to mankind, he would know that mankind would get it eventually.
Honestly can't you see the problem, you guys are taking for example "settled place" and claiming it means X not what it literally says and therefore it proves some great miracle. In the same vein you are getting upset because someone takes "muddy place" and says it means exactly that "a muddy place" in truth I am being more literal about the quran than you or 7x7 but you don't like it because it doesn't fit into the contrived "scientific miracle" you want to see.

All of this is what you "see"
Those verses show what the prophets "saw".

But supposedly the prophet didn't write the book allah did.

 

[path]

Ok you get that. God told Muhammad what the prophet "saw". The prophet didn't see the sun in the space, to which the earth is revolving around. He literally saw it setting in the ocean.

It is what the prophet precieved. I hope you understand now.

Peace be unto you

This is too funny so god told muhammed what muhammed saw

 

[fadeaway humper]

I can't believe this thread is still alive. It's gone from funny to depressing.

 

[Igor Trip]

Not halt, the world is going to finish in Islam after judgment day. There is no mention that judgment day before or after the sun reaches that point. It says there is a settled place the sun is going to.

For example if I'm going to park, I'm going to take a road ends in the park.

The sun is not going to park. If you were to ask a astronomer to mark on a map of the stars, which way we are going he would mark a point near Vega. It’s just a direction.
Please find me one site which says we will stop when we get there.

All the planets exhibit retrograde motion at one time or another.

Source from www.space.com (search for Reverse Course! Mars Motion Soon to be Backward)

The apparent retrograde motion of the planets is just an illusion.
http://www.scienceu.com/observatory/articles/retro/retro.html

you can assume but you can not prove. We are not talking about Medicene (physist) Man, we are talking about the prophet (an illiterate)
anyway this just another one of many we have and of what I posted about the medicine. Why don't you answer me the "The Fly" thread?

Are you seriously suggesting that Arabs were so ignorant that they didn’t even know honey was good for them?

People talk. They tell each other all sorts of things. Arabs are famous for their hospitality, inviting strangers into their homes and talking all night long. Just what do you think they talk about? I would guess anything and everything (including the medical properties of honey).

As both fly wings contain germs and germ killing chemicals, wouldn’t dipping the second wing just double the amount of both in the drink?
Can you give me one example of flies being used in medicine?

 

[786]

This is too funny so god told muhammed what muhammed saw

This just shows how ignorant you are of the verses.

You don't even read them, and just HIGHLIGHT in BIG BOLD AND COLOR the part you want the people to see.

The prophet or the person is Zul-Qurnain. You would've know if you actually read the verse.

You don't even know who the person in the verse is. How funny

Peace be unto you

 

[path]

My bad 786 I misread your post

 

[786]

One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in one of the verses of the Quran:

He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.

 

[Igor Trip]

One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in one of the verses of the Quran:

He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.

[25.53] And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

[55.19] .He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:
[55.20] Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.

Also 27.61 & 35.12

All the verses I could find refer to two seas. There are far more than two seas.
So they must all be referring to fresh and salt water. If they meant lakes and seas then this would make some sense but if the barrier is where rivers meet the sea then this is nonsense because the “barrier” is where they are actually mixing. And they do mix.

 

[786]

[25.53] And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

[55.19] .He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:
[55.20] Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.

Also 27.61 & 35.12

All the verses I could find refer to two seas. There are far more than two seas.
So they must all be referring to fresh and salt water. If they meant lakes and seas then this would make some sense but if the barrier is where rivers meet the sea then this is nonsense because the “barrier” is where they are actually mixing. And they do mix.

I know there are more than two seas. I'll try to explain to you.

Red Sea and Dead Sea <---two seas right?

This site was provided by brother 7x7 to serve for a different cause, but this site can also serve my cause.

Here is a quote from the site:

"The different sea waters may not mix, creating a layer of the Red Sea on top of the Dead Sea. It could cause a blooming of micro-organisms, or even turn the water a whitish color."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/10/dead.sea/

Now you see that the sea's Red Sea and Dead Sea would be flowing "freely" but they will not mix.

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density.

Here is another example.

There are large waves, strong currents, and tides in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Mediterranean Sea water enters the Atlantic by Gibraltar. But their temperature, salinity, and densities do not change, because of the barrier that separates them.

Here we see the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic ocean. In the middle of this photo we see a colored triangle, this is the base of the rock of Gibraltar. We can observe a colored partition between the two bodies of water, although the naked human eye cannot perceive it in nature. This has become possible by means of satellite photography and remote-sensing techniques. These are partitions that can only be seen and perceived by scientific research and modern technology.

Modern Science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a ”pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.” This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.

Peace be unto you