Is Hell a Physical Reality?

[SnakeLord]

Woody: yes, it is indeed strange that you haven't attended a single religious service of any kind, regardless of your degree in religious education.

It would seem I'm really not getting through to you. Even though I do not know the relevance of what you do or don't find "weird", I'll give it one more try to make you understand.

As I have said before, I am currently working on a degree in Archaeology. It's great - I do it in my own time in the comfort of my home while sipping on a few lagers. I do not ever intend to become an Archaeologist though.

I've been learning all about the history of Archaeology - Jefferson, Stukeley, Aubrey, Leland etc. I have been learning how things were originally dated from 4004 bc, (according to the caluclations of an archbishop usher) , and how stone/bronze/iron were not originally considered as 'ages', but a sign of status, (the poor would use stone etc). It's all really quite fascinating I must confess.

None of that means I will ever go and dig something up. That might sound "weird" or "strange" to you, but I guess that's just the way I am.

I have always had a vested interest in history, (and religion is most certainly a part of it). I've never been back to the time of the dinosaurs or ancient cultures, but that has not in any way hindered my learning about them. By studying religion one is under no obligation to become religious - and yet that's what you seemingly want me to do. Nowhere did I see a notice saying that going to church services were a course requirement, and frankly I am amazed that you cannot seemingly grasp that very simple concept.

Has that helped at all or would you just like to continue with this completely off-topic nonsense?

Woody says: I asked you for chapter and verse. I got a weirdo answer instead. You failed. See what I mean?

Well I was not aware you had an eyesight problem. Audible provided some of the basics which is surely sufficient? Need I copy/paste his post just to please little old you? Further to which, as a man who is always at church you should surely know these things already and how to debate them. Of course you have no interest in any of that, you'd just rather sit here waffling on about some completely irrelevant garbage.

Get on with it already.

 

[jayleew]

woody: does this help.

king james version,

matthew6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues(churches) and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Needless to say, Jesus didn't like "Christians" as I do not either, they confuse and twist the scriptures to their own ends. As I've said before, you can be inspired and guided by church. It is like a refueling station, but if you really want to find God you need to seek him out yourself. I can't remember what the Pastor even said last week, but I remember the scriptures and my encounters with God in private.

To keep it in context, Jesus is talking about those who pray in chruch so that people can think they are better than everyone else.

matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Good verse. Pretty clear here that we are to pray one on one. But, that does not mean that we shouldn't pray in chruch as well.

You know what is ironic? God says nowhere that I've read that we are to go to church. He says to remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy. Which is to remember him, his creation, and a rest from the world.

However, church is described as the Body of Christ, in that, it can accomplish great things when Christians get together.

It also says, " Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. " which means he is present at church which is comforting and inviting to worship him in song and prayers.

Now back to the topic!

 

[Woody]

S/L says: I have always had a vested interest in history, (and religion is most certainly a part of it). I've never been back to the time of the dinosaurs or ancient cultures, but that has not in any way hindered my learning about them. By studying religion one is under no obligation to become religious - and yet that's what you seemingly want me to do. Nowhere did I see a notice saying that going to church services were a course requirement, and frankly I am amazed that you cannot seemingly grasp that very simple concept.

Has that helped at all or would you just like to continue with this completely off-topic nonsense?

Woody says: You can read about history, but you can't go back in time to see it for yourself -- the same thing with archeology. If you majored in anthropology, wouldn't you at least want to visit some of the cultures you studied about? If nothing really interested you about those cultures -- then yeah stay at home instead of going to the other side of the world. How far is the nearest church?

In conclusion you have absolutely no interest in seeing it for yourself. You are perfectly content to read secondhand accounts from other people. OK so your interrest level is absolute zilch! I'm ready to move on.

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Just to set everyone straight on matthew 6:5&6 -- only nonchristians have trouble with these verses because they don't understand the one who spoke them -- namely Jesus. So instead of taking a few of his words out of context why not look at the whole scenario:

MATTHEW 6:1-6

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Now that we have the scenario, may I provide the spirit-filled enlighted understanding that Jesus gives to those that believe in Him. I understand his voice and he says -- don't be a show-off at church. Don't make a big show out of what you give, don't make a big show out of how you pray. And to be totally honest about the whole thing -- don't do anything that draws attention to me in a church worship service. This is a BAD motivation, and Jesus says it is a BAD motivation. Wanting to please other people with my showmanship in church is poor behavior.

Does this sound like a reasonable, fair explanation to you heathen cynics out there? Or do you just want to look for faults?

 

[SnakeLord]

You can read about history, but you can't go back in time to see it for yourself -- the same thing with archeology.

The same holds true for religion. While you can see the modern day 'versions' of it, (much like I can go to John Lewis and see a modern day vase as opposed to a 2,000 year old one), you can never go back and see it back then. I still have no need to go to church.

You are the one in your next paragraph telling me that I "am perfectly content to read secondhand accounts from other people", without even realising that's all the church is. Some priest born in 1950 telling me what he thinks is nothing other than a secondhand account - that which you seem to be having a go at me for. Much like the vase in John Lewis, the preacher in the church is of no relevance - and nor do I really need someone to read the bible to me when I am quite capable of doing it myself.

Also what you keep forgetting is that I am an atheist. While I am interested in the historical aspects of the bible and other ancient texts, I have no interest in standing up and saying "amen" when someone actually manages to read a biblical paragraph without laughing or puking.

If you majored in anthropology, wouldn't you at least want to visit some of the cultures you studied about? If nothing really interested you about those cultures -- then yeah stay at home instead of going to the other side of the world.

You know, I went to Egypt a few years ago. It was quite nice. I went specifically to see the pyramids. I can't really think of anything else that quite 'speaks' history like they do. But having said that, I had absolutely no interest in modern Egyptian architecture.

I really am quite astounded that you still fail to understand what I'm saying. But I suppose it is worth asking, considering you didn't have the decency to include it in your original outburst, why exactly you think there is a need for me to go to a church.

I shall list a couple of things you might say:

1) To find god - If this one is so then I would respond that there would be as much chance of me finding god whilst sitting on the toilet as there would be in going to a church.

2) To get an opinion from some religious people - If this is the case then to me this forum is sufficient enough. Your opinion, the priests opinion - it's all just an opinion, and a "secondhand" one at that, which you go on to imply is not a good thing.

Anything else?

In conclusion you have absolutely no interest in seeing it for yourself.

"It"? What's "it"? You mean the inside of a church - some stained glass windows, wooden seats, a leaking roof and a bunch of people that have all given up on reason and logic?

You are perfectly content to read secondhand accounts from other people.

Like the bible? Yes Woody, that's a secondhand account as would be the preachers opinions concerning it. Why do you even go to church then and listen to some other human giving secondhand accounts when you might aswell stay at home and talk to the big cheese personally?

OK so your interrest level is absolute zilch!

More like your ability to understand is absolute zilch.

Now that we have the scenario, may I provide the spirit-filled enlighted understanding that Jesus gives to those that believe in Him. I understand his voice and he says -- don't be a show-off at church. Don't make a big show out of what you give, don't make a big show out of how you pray. And to be totally honest about the whole thing -- don't do anything that draws attention to me in a church worship service. This is a BAD motivation, and Jesus says it is a BAD motivation. Wanting to please other people with my showmanship in church is poor behavior.

And now given all that, you tell me why an atheist would go to a church? You keep saying I should go there, but for what? I do not believe in any gods so if I did go to church what would be the motivation? I certainly wouldn't be going to pray or worship a non-existant being. I certainly wouldn't be going to make friends with a bunch of religious people.

Tell me Woody, why should I go to church?

 

[Woody]

S/L: Tell me Woody, why should I go to church?

Woody: Because it is where God is present.

Jesus says to you Snakelord:

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

(Matthew 12:27)

Actually Jesus said this to the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection -- just like you. Jesus says "BIG MISTAKE DUDE!"

Believers are alive, they are in church, and Jesus is their God, but you'll never see it for yourself.

 

[SnakeLord]

S/L: Tell me Woody, why should I go to church?

Woody: Because it is where God is present.

So you are telling me right here, right now that god is not present anywhere else?

Believers are alive, they are in church, and Jesus is their God, but you'll never see it for yourself.

I'm sure they are alive, I'm sure they're in church and I'm sure they believe jesus is god. What's your point? Like I've said: I didn't study it so I could meet religious people.

 

[fadeaway humper]

Tell me Woody, why should I go to church?

If you are lucky, some guy will be playing Bach on the organ. That should be good enough reason.

(On the other hand, you probably just go to St. Martin in the Fields for that kind of thing, don't you?)

 

[Woody]

S/L: So you are telling me right here, right now that god is not present anywhere else?

Woody: Are you seeing Him? Do you even want to see Him? Probably not.

S/L: I'm sure they are alive, I'm sure they're in church and I'm sure they believe jesus is god. What's your point? Like I've said: I didn't study it so I could meet religious people.

Woody says: You didn't study it so you could meet God either. You're running out of excuses. Just go ahead and admit that you just aren't interested in knowing God if he does really exist, and we'll move on.

 

[SnakeLord]

Woody: Are you seeing Him? Do you even want to see Him? Probably not.

Do you think you could find it in your loving christian heart to at least answer my question?

Here it is once more:

Are you telling me that god is not present anywhere other than in a church?

You didn't study it so you could meet God either.

You're right, I didn't. I've been trying to explain that to you for many posts now. At least you're finally catching on.

You're running out of excuses.

Excuses? It seems you have become overly confused. You told me i'm "weird" because I haven't gone to church. I then went into depth that my reasons for studying religion had nothing to do with being religious. I explained that I am an atheist, but was interested in the historical aspects of religions and ancient people's beliefs. Indeed I clearly pointed out that I do not believe in any gods, to which I then questioned why you would want me to go to church - and guess what, here you are saying what I've been saying to you for the past half dozen posts.

So once again, and hopefully for the final time: There is no reason for me to go, or to have gone to church.

Please read and digest the information before replying. It seems you're having problems comprehending what I've been saying.

Just go ahead and admit that you just aren't interested in knowing God if he does really exist, and we'll move on.

You came into the thread, went completely off-topic to tell me I should go to church and that I'm a weirdo for not going to church, and now start trying to look like you've come to a conclusion all by yourself when it is in fact what I have been telling you since your interference.

Let me spell it out for you Woody: I am an atheist. I do not believe in gods - be they yours or anyone elses. I did not study so I could become religious, but for the historical aspects of it.

After all that time wasting you've done for nothing, I do believe we are finished here - oh, unless you have the courtesy to answer the question I asked in my last post.

 

[Woody]

S/L says: Are you telling me that god is not present anywhere other than in a church?

Woody says: I believe the Lord is omnipresent.

So now you will say -- ah ha -- then I can just stay at home and let Him come to me if He really exists. Why hasn't He come to me if He really exists?

My answer to your ad hoc argument: You will not experience His personna in your home because you are not interested in God as a person. If you were interested in God as a person then you would come to see Him.

As you have already said you are not interested -- end of discussion. We can quit now.

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S/L says: You came into the thread, went completely off-topic to tell me I should go to church and that I'm a weirdo for not going to church, and now start trying to look like you've come to a conclusion all by yourself when it is in fact what I have been telling you since your interference.


Woody says: The thread topic is the physical reality of Hell. Why do you care anyway? You don't believe it exists, and I believe you'll spend an eternity there. Maybe after a few billion years I can ask you what it's like, the same way Lazarus asked the rich man. You'll be the expert on what Hell is like -- no question about it.

 

[SnakeLord]

Woody says: I believe the Lord is omnipresent.

And thus the non-disputable answer is that a person stands as much chance of finding god anywhere than just in a church. This negates your entire argument.

So now you will say -- ah ha -- then I can just stay at home and let Him come to me if He really exists. Why hasn't He come to me if He really exists?

Actually no, I wouldn't. Your response is so typical that I already knew it would come to this 10 posts ago.

But let's move beyond that.. Let's say someone does in all sincerity cry out for him and he doesn't come. What then? Are we to conclude that god is either on holiday, doesn't like them or - simply that he does not exist?

You see, your reply to your own question that you thought I'd ask is so limited. You forgot the people that actually do try and yet don't even catch so much as a glimpse of the space fairy. But then you'll just give yet another typical response: "They didn't try hard enough" - and this points to some serious issues.

For a being that supposedly loves his children so much, he certainly is a hard one to track down - whether you try or not.

Woody says: The thread topic is the physical reality of Hell. Why do you care anyway? You don't believe it exists, and I believe you'll spend an eternity there. Maybe after a few billion years I can ask you what it's like, the same way Lazarus asked the rich man. You'll be the expert on what Hell is like -- no question about it.

It's always easy to notice when you get under a religious man's skin. He starts getting all judgemental and doing that which jesus said not to do. Of course what you forget is that it's of no relevance what you believe. The fact remains you jumped into a thread to give me some grief and ended up arguing youself into a big circle. To be honest you might aswell have just come in here, judged me as hellbound like you usually do and not said anything else. That way you wouldn't have wasted such an amount of time with all this silly nonsense and could have just got down to your true nature.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

 

[Woody]

S/L said: And thus the non-disputable answer is that a person stands as much chance of finding god anywhere than just in a church.You forgot the people that actually do try and yet don't even catch so much as a glimpse of the space fairy.

Woody: Got a real live example of somebody that cried out for God and did not find him? Certainly it is not you.

I cried out for God and He directed me to a specific church. I said "God I want to do it your way, I'll go to a synagogue, a hindu temple, muslim mosque, a christian church, you name it! I'm willing to try any religion until I find you. Where do you want me to start looking?" God's Holy Spirit told me to go to a church I had driven by for many years and I knew nothing about. There I found Jesus and was saved. The Holy Spirit could not save me but He was the witness I needed to find Jesus. I did not understand all of this until after I was saved. But now that I have learned the bible, it all makes perfect sense what God was doing.

Notice I did not start with the christian option. I figured the christian option had not worked for me as a child. But praise God, HE had other plans for my life!

Notice the Holy Spirit that is present EVERYWHERE can not save a person, neither can the Father -- Only Jesus can save a person. This is something only a christian understands. Snakelord, you have no comprehension of how God works, and understandably so -- you are an atheist.

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S/L said: And thus the non-disputable answer is that a person stands as much chance of finding god anywhere than just in a church.

Bible: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17).

Woody: So tell me Snakelord, does anyone hear the word of God spoken by sitting in a closet?

You've studied the christian faith, you have debated it, but in the end you have absolutely no comprehension of how it works. Neither can that be expected -- you are an atheist by your own choice -- as you said yourself, you are not interested in God as a person.

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S/L said: It's always easy to notice when you get under a religious man's skin. He starts getting all judgemental and doing that which jesus said not to do.

Woody: I can understand you taking it that way, but actually I was thinking about the rich man and Lazarus. Somebody actually did speak to someone living in hell. Maybe I'll be given the opportunity to speak to you there, I don't know. All I can say is, I don't want you there, but never-the-less I believe you will be there unless you can change.

This thread was about the physical reality of hell, and you made it clear that you really want to stay on subject. So I suggest you read about the rich man and Lazarus. The account sounds physical to me -- lots of flames and not a drop of water to drink.

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S/L said: Your response is so typical that I already knew it would come to this 10 posts ago.

Woody says: I was thinking likewise. Is there any point in continuing this discussion? I see we are both saying the same things we have already said before. I'm tired of re-typing it, how about you? So how about if we agree to disagree, and just leave it at that? Besides, I have a Father's day gig to go to at my local church. I'm looking forward to the honor.

 

[SnakeLord]

Woody: Got a real live example of somebody that cried out for God and did not find him?

Yes.

Certainly it is not you.

You know, you really should stop with the pointless assumptions. You probably like to think that you know me, but the simple fact is that you don't. My advice would be to change words like "certainly" to "probably". It doesn't come across so rudely and doesn't leave you hanging out on a ledge when you're shown to be wrong.

I cried out for God and He directed me to a specific church. I said "God I want to do it your way, I'll go to a synagogue, a hindu temple, muslim mosque, a christian church, you name it! I'm willing to try any religion until I find you. Where do you want me to start looking?" God's Holy Spirit told me to go to a church I had driven by for many years and I knew nothing about.

One question: What did he sound like? Or are you saying he didn't actually 'say' anything, but that your mind took you to a place that, in your own words, you kept driving past? Surely it's no wonder you ended up in a church in this case as opposed to a mosque or synagogue. Of course if you had have been in Iraq that same non-existant voice would have directed you to a mosque. Of course I could be wrong, so tell me what he sounded like.

Notice the Holy Spirit that is present EVERYWHERE can not save a person, neither can the Father -- Only Jesus can save a person.

Oh such limited beings... all three of them. Lol.

Woody: So tell me Snakelord, does anyone hear the word of God spoken by sitting in a closet?

His voice cannot penetrate the hard mahogany closet casing?

I decided to test it out. I sat in the closet while my wife who was outside the closet said "hi". I heard her perfectly. If she can manage, one would ask why a god can't.

But of course we're not even talking about 'hearing'. It is evident that nobody has actually ever 'heard' god, but that they've received some kind of direct brain signal sent from the sky. If that is the case then it doesn't matter if you're in a closet or a nuclear shelter.

Not that any of that would matter because you contest that god is everywhere, even going so far as to put it in capitals. If he is everywhere that would include inside the closet and inside your ear. As such hearing would not be a problem.

You've studied the christian faith, you have debated it, but in the end you have absolutely no comprehension of how it works.

I understand perfectly how it works.. you make it up as you go along. That's what christianity has been doing since day 1, which is exactly why none of you can even agree with each other let alone anyone else.

Woody: I can understand you taking it that way, but actually I was thinking about the rich man and Lazarus. Somebody actually did speak to someone living in hell.

While truly fascinating, it's also a weak excuse. You started dooming me to hell. That is a judgement. "you'll be the expert on what hell is like - no doubt about it". Stop trying to worm your way out of it and just repent.

This thread was about the physical reality of hell, and you made it clear that you really want to stay on subject. So I suggest you read about the rich man and Lazarus.

Sure this thread was about the physical reality of hell, but not your opinion and judgement on who's going there and who isn't. One would believe you are capable of discussing Lazarus without having to eternally doom forum users while you're at it.

I'm tired of re-typing it

My advice then would be to read posts before arguing against them 10 times just to finally state the original posts point. Lol. I mean seriously, you fully earnt that tiredness all because you didn't take the time to read what had been written - instead opting for your typical style of judgemental damnation and crass assumption.

how about you? So how about if we agree to disagree, and just leave it at that?

Why? I find it amusing when you keep arguing 'amongst yourselves' just to make my point.

Of course it would be a lot more interesting if you could leave out dooming people to hell, but otherwise it's fine.

 

[Woody]

S/L: What did he sound like?

Woody: Rom 8:26 but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

That's what he sounded like to me: he made groanings that no man can utter. I'd call it telepathic communication.

So what next Snakelord, the ole yer talkin to yerself routine?

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S/L: Or are you saying he didn't actually 'say' anything, but that your mind took you to a place that, in your own words, you kept driving past?Surely it's no wonder you ended up in a church in this case as opposed to a mosque or synagogue.

Woody: Every religion is represented in Charlotte, a city of about 700 thousand people, where I lived. I'd say at least 30 million other people have also driven by the same church -- it is on the I-85 corrider which is the main interstate between Atlanta, Charlotte, and DC/Baltimore. Charlotte metro is about 1.5 million. The carolinas urban cresent plus Atlanta is about 10 million people -- throw in DC/Baltimore, and Richmond and you're up to about 15 million people that have driven or will drive by that church sometime just like I did.

S/L: Of course if you had have been in Iraq ...

Woody: There are christians in Iraq. They're persecuted, but they are there.

S/L: Oh such limited beings... all three of them. Lol.

Woody: God can't take an unredeemed sinner to heaven either, but that's your problem. Not mine, and not His. His limitation is you.

S/L: "you'll be the expert on what hell is like - no doubt about it".

Woody: Yes indeed, I believe it. It is not my choice -- it is yours.

S/L: I understand perfectly how it works.. you make it up as you go along. That's what christianity has been doing since day 1, which is exactly why none of you can even agree with each other let alone anyone else.

Woody: You are clueless about the christian faith. All your accounts are secondhand at best. My account is firsthand testimony. Can you find a Christian that agrees with you, instead of you "faking the experience" through your own self-actualization? God is a higher being than you. For a human you seem kind of puny anyhow.


S/L: Of course it would be a lot more interesting if you could leave out dooming people to hell, but otherwise it's fine.

Woody: The bible says all unbelievers will be cast into hell. You are an unbeliever and you made that choice. The bible dooms all unbelievers to hell.

John3:36 Jesus says

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mark 16:16 Jesus says

he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus says you are going to hell, Snakelord, because you don't believe on Him. Don't blame it on me -- you made the choice. I'm sorry it has to be that way, but I trust Jesus when He says it. There are a lot of people going there. The only qualification is unbelief, according to Jesus, whom I believe.

 

[Yorda]

Woody, I'm sure you can see that all people can't believe in God because God has made them that way. "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." So don't blame those who do not believe, and don't blame God either, because God didn't have a choice... this is just the natural process of life.

 

[SnakeLord]

That's what he sounded like to me: he made groanings that no man can utter. I'd call it telepathic communication.

So what next Snakelord, the ole yer talkin to yerself routine?

Certainly, and if you took just three seconds out to be honest with yourself, you would have to see that 'talking to yourself' is a viable answer. But as an example let's use that woman that said god spoke to her, (telepathically of course), and told her to stone her children to death. She, being the obedient christian that she is, did just that.

Or perhaps the man who recently climbed into a lions cage at the zoo because god told him to save the lion.

And then what separates those same 'telepathic communications' between say a christian and a muslim, or a christian and a jew, or a christian and a different christian? I've seen in the mormon thread how the mormon tells the other christians about what god has said and wants, and has come to him in visions and so on and so forth and yet other christians deny it outright. Or if a muslim told you allah was communicating with him telepathically saying that christians should all die, you'd probably call him insane - and yet he would be making claims just as supportable as yours, and yet you'd deny it without second thought but for some reason expect me to do differently.

Or perhaps we should look at David Koresh. god spoke to him, told him what to do and christians ignored it, indeed labelling this man as insane or a fake or whatever else you can come up with.

So at the end of the day it's all nonsense. You're just another person with another claim that doesn't actually mean anything.

Woody: Every religion is represented in Charlotte, a city of about 700 thousand people, where I lived. I'd say at least 30 million other people have also driven by the same church -- it is on the I-85 corrider which is the main interstate between Atlanta, Charlotte, and DC/Baltimore. Charlotte metro is about 1.5 million. The carolinas urban cresent plus Atlanta is about 10 million people -- throw in DC/Baltimore, and Richmond and you're up to about 15 million people that have driven or will drive by that church sometime just like I did.

While it's very interesting information, it's also entirely irrelevant to what I said.

Woody: There are christians in Iraq. They're persecuted, but they are there.

Again, it's interesting but irrelevant.

Woody: God can't

Thus limited.

Woody: Yes indeed, I believe it. It is not my choice -- it is yours.

Ah, so now it's a "belief" when a minute ago it was a certainty.

Further to which what choice are you talking about? I choose to live my life, eventually die and then that's it. End of. There's my choice right there. You're wrong.

All your accounts are secondhand at best.

What accounts?

My account is firsthand testimony.

What account? That you heard a loud groaning and decided to go to a church that you constantly drove past? Must it be accepted as reality if it comes out firsthand? If so I will once again point you towards David Koresh.

Can you find a Christian that agrees with you, instead of you "faking the experience" through your own self-actualization?

A christian that agrees with me that god doesn't exist, hell doesn't exist and that the loud groaning you heard was probably just wind?

God is a higher being than you.

god is non existant.

For a human you seem kind of puny anyhow.

Hardly aids the discussion, but ok. Wanna fight?

Tell you what: I'll even allow you to pray for help while we fight and watch the look on your face as god ignores the extreme battering you'd be getting.

Woody: The bible says all unbelievers will be cast into hell. You are an unbeliever and you made that choice. The bible dooms all unbelievers to hell.

LotR says Sauron's going to take over middle earth. Sorry, did you have a point?

Jesus says you are going to hell, Snakelord, because you don't believe on Him.

It's irrelevant what jesus says, just like it's irrelevant what david koresh says. Your 'faith' that some non existant entity once said something several thousand years ago and now farts in your ear on occasion does not in any way change that.

Don't blame it on me -- you made the choice.

Just like you made the choice to be tortured and see your wife being raped and kids being killed.. right?

You'll say you never made such a choice. I'll say I saw it written in a book. The book says that anyone called Woody faces these punishments. You'll say the books all bollocks and that you never made such a choice.. etc etc etc.

Did you make that choice Woody? Did you make the choice to be tortured etc?

When you answer no kindly take a moment to reflect on what I'm getting at.

P.S I notice you shied away from any further comments regarding whether I know someone "firsthand" who has cried out to god and never received an answer. I get the feeling it's better to avoid than to face a question you can't answer.

 

[Lawdog]

Woody,

Your bible quoting is not going to convince anyone who does not consider scripture divine authority. I recommend Philosophic reason (O no! OF MEN!!!!) first, before you can teach the hyper reasoning of the Trinity etc.

 

[audible]

lawdog: is that a open challenge, if so bring it on.
and lawdog, I suggest you refrain from using words like logic and reason or wisdom, when you discuss the trinity or anything supernatural, you see you lose the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought. if you start from a supernatural subjective base.

 

[audible]

I am an author of Fantasy books.

you dont say, could you be anything else.

 

[Lawdog]

Of course, I would not attempt to explain a divine mystery with human reason. By definition, human reason is not applicable,
however, divine reason is beyond our comprehension.
As for you, a good fantasy novel might help. may I recommend my own work?