SnakeLord said:
Sure you can. I did a trial robot with free will. It picked it's nose, farted in public and was an all round general nuisance. I then realised that I had made a glitch in the 'nature' subroutine.
I tried again this time giving it a pleasant nature. Voila.. It still had free will but behaved, (the way I personally demanded it to - which somewhat negates the very essence of free will), simply because it was in it's nature to do so.
I didn't annihilate the first robot because that would show a callous lack of respect for my creation. I gave it the right to do as it pleased - it would simply be wrong for me to doom it because I didn't personally like the choices it made. I told it to chop the end of it's penis off and it laughed in my face. It chose not to because believe it or not that robot had developed it's own morals, it's own guidelines to what was right or wrong. That made my penis-chopping demands completely irrelevant to him and his life, (which is exactly the same with modern day christians. god's demand that you be circumcised has been completely swept aside and ignored - just as stoning naughty sons to death has been). Who am I to get all upset and moody because my creation has utilized that which I have given it to it's fullest ability? I gave it free will to use that free will. Adding all kinds of threats and demands completely removes any worth that free will would have had.
A well made point, and interesting to read as well. I counter in this way: Free Will cannot be epiphenomenal (a byproduct of intellect that only seems like freedom), for that goes contrary to the very definition, in which it is understood as an autonomous power. Like Artificial Intelligence or animal intelligence, there really is no such thing, there is only something which appears to be intelligence but is not. Both Intellect and Free Will are faculties (powers) and these are spiritual powers proper only to indestructable (immortal) souls.
Have your free will and die, or have no free will and live. It's astoundingly pathetic. Promises of another life that wont be like this one.. one where the creator hasn't included such beautiful creations like cancer that has spent it's entire existence killing both the worshipful and the worshipless. One where nobody will have a choice to be bad or to do anything that does not belong there.. A bunch of sheep all living in a golden city worshipping this one being for eternity and for what?
The benificence of the Creator is boundless, and even the fact that we were created and have being is a blessing beyond what is comprehensible. Thus, were the creator to create out of nothingness beings that reject an even further offering, such as immortal bliss, it would have to be a totally free rejection on their part. The Creator allows this, unwilling to force any being into intimacy with him. Since the Creator originally designed humans to have final bliss with him, they cannot find true joy in any other end. This is their nature, that the human soul cannot love unless it is free to love. For example, a triangle must have three sides, and there is no triangle that does not have three sides, such a thing cannot be created. In the same way human nature must have Free Will. [/quote]
Ok I'm not an eternal being, but I could not even contemplate what would be wrong with my brain to need people to worship me. Some respect is always nice, and it's a pleasure to see my robots come up to me and say thanks and hi once in a while - but absolute servitude and worship? But it doesn't even stop there.. We're not talking respect - he doesn't ask for that, we're not talking appreciation - he doesn't care for that... nope, what he wants above all else is for his creation to "fear" him. That in itself shows some serious issues that would have a human locked up or killed within a short while, (sup Saddam).
All men owe God worship and service. This is not so much for the good of God, or an increase in benefits that he might recieve thereby, for God cannot benefit at all from Man, since He is a transcendent God, totally encompassing all Goodness in himself and needing nothing. We are unessesary beings, but God has chosen us to be in Eternity with him. He asks (not demands) that we worship him, not for hisown good, but for our good and happiness. God is so goods and loving that he cannot stop considering and desiring whats best for us.[/quote]
Frankly it's disgusting.
All of this of course while this being plays a magical game of hide and seek somewhere out in the cosmos. He hasn't been seen sitting on a mountain in millennia and only lets us know he's still alive and kicking with the occasional tsunami or earthquake when us little humans misbehave. Oh and of course the 1 in 3 first time pregnancies that end in miscarriage. We know that's his doing because he says so in the bible, (the firstborn are his).
God has removed himself from the earth for a time, for several reasons: 1) So that man may practice the virtue of faith and thereby merit eternal reward. 2) Because we God to remain on earth as a ruler, he would be treated badly by men, as he was on Golgotha. Therefore, in order that blasphemies and such be less culpable, he has removed himself.
3) In a very real way God is still present on the Earth, in the form of the Holy Ghost and the Eucharist
Also, miscarriages are for a reason, perhaps unknown, but God allows a soul to enter the world for a brief time for his own mysterious reason.[/quote]
I could only imagine how much worse it must have been for the angels - a full third of which decided he wasn't quite the cool dude you'd make him out to be.
The fallen angels envied the exaltation of Christ as Man, for God consented to take on human nature, and the angels thought this too inglorious for them.
Doesn't that bring some serious issues into mind?
god creates angels.. angels leave god, god creates man, man doesn't listen to god because god sent the angel that didn't like god down to intervene with mankind who was at that stage getting along perfectly until god sent down the naughty angel to persuade man not to listen to god. god then dooms man to spend eternity with the angels that left him, and instead of acting like a father and working out what the problem is and how to solve it in the most caring and loving way possible, he just dumps them all together in a fiery burning pit. Amen.
God does not doom Man, but destines man for the bliss of Eternity, as he did for the angels.
Oh wait.. let's not forget the time that is fast approaching where he decides to loose this fallen angel to cause some havoc on the planet, before bombarding the planet with some asteroids, apocolyptic horsemen, flying dragons and several other weird things, loosing a bunch of plagues, turning the sun and moon into sackcloth and ash, and utterly completely destroying the entire universe, (which is a tragedy for the animals who haven't done any harm to anyone and yet get whacked along with the rest of us).
The Apocalypse (the Revealing of God) is indeed preceded by a time of great trial and temptation for men. Using the teachings of Christ anyone may live through that time or die as a saint.
Thats like me making an ant nest thing, (the glass thingy you can see ants in), placing loads of ants in it, giving them a bunch of stupid ass rules for the mere sake of it, demanding they worship and fear me and then battering the smeg out of the ants nest just for kicks.
And there I was thinking Dawn of the Dead was depressing.
You honestly worship that? You see some joy in having this wonderful planet and all on it annihilated for no good reason? You see some joy in watching the mass majority of mankind, (your species), end up in a lake of lava? Would you enjoy watching your god loose a huge variety of plagues on women, children, old aged pensioners? Would you enjoy finding out that god didn't like some things your wife did in her life and while you get to spend an eternity bowing at his knees your wife will always be below you slowly burning - all because a man and a woman with no understanding of good and evil made the wrong choice several thousand years ago - and were set up to make that wrong choice. god put the tree there, knowing they would eat from it, god put the serpent there, knowing he would tempt them, god knew all that time what they would do, and knew all that time that perhaps your wife, or parents, or children would end up burning forever and ever and ever simply because they weren't perfect, and all because he messed up on the maths?
A formidible perspective. Pray about these things and you will come to understanding. Consider that had not God allowed Man to be tempted in this way, he would never have needed to send the Christ who opened the gates of Heaven to us. As far as beloved ones in Hell, those who are with God do not suffer for they know that His justice has been metted. Those in Hell chose that fate for themselves, they were not forced into it. That is why you should make every effort to go to Heaven, so that the rest of your earthly family will have all the more joy knowing that you are with them.
