Is Hell a Physical Reality?

[§outh§tar]

Southstar

infinite patience God does have, however, he wants you to decide an eternal decision for yourself, and he will not interfere with that FREE WILL of yours: To choose HELL if you wish it.

God gave me free will?

And yet if I don't obey Him I face assured eternal torment in anguish.

Doesn't leave much of a choice, does it?

The writers themselves may not understand the meanings of their own signs,
since it is inspired writing.

lights have a different symbolic meaning than treasures.

That's kind of a cop out answer and accomplishes nothing. (Either way, you still haven't given me YOUR own interpretation.)

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

We're all sinners, son, even you. The only difference is I'm not looking for the easy way out. You may say that the path of the righteous is not easy, but on so many levels, in my mind, it is. You may forget that I was a die-hard Christian for about 30 years, so I kind of know all the verses by heart. Too well, you might say.

And yes, I felt like I was blessed for most of it. Until I came to realize that it wasn't God making me feel that way, it was me. When I realized that, the glass house shattered, and I will never be able or willing to go back. Maybe someday you'll have a simialar experience. Maybe not. Who knows for sure?

This is interesting.
The moment you renounced Him, things fell apart for you.

 

[water]

God gave me free will?

And yet if I don't obey Him I face assured eternal torment in anguish.

Doesn't leave much of a choice, does it?

Hold on, take heart, help is coming!

 

[water]

That will be over, and God's patience will literally run out.

News Headline: An infinite God with boundless patience has finally been worn out.

THAT IS BECAUSE GOD IS NOT FREE, BUT BOUND BY NECESSITY.
So some Christians would have us believe.

 

[§outh§tar]

THAT IS BECAUSE GOD IS NOT FREE, BUT BOUND BY NECESSITY.
So some Christians would have us believe.

THEN BY DEFINITION HE IS NOT GOD.

He in effect becomes our puppet.

 

[Lawdog]

God gave me free will?

And yet if I don't obey Him I face assured eternal torment in anguish.

Doesn't leave much of a choice, does it?



That's kind of a cop out answer and accomplishes nothing. (Either way, you still haven't given me YOUR own interpretation.)

No, it doesnt leave much of a choice. But thats just the way things are.

 

[SnakeLord]

OK, OK!! Everyone but pavlosmarkos and snake lord. And any other damned atheist out there. I guess that means I am no longer a "sinner" either, huh? I'm still kinda new to this whole godless thing. Trying to feel my way around a bit, still.

Let's take a look at the tiger who kills a zebra. Some could say he has sinned, but they would be wrong. All that tiger has done is that which is in it's nature to do.

No matter how hard you try you can never get a butterfly to kill anything, no matter how hard you try you cannot stop a tiger from killing. Everything does that which is it's nature to do - including me.

If you're religious then you can look upon it like this: god created me this way. god created me to do the things that are in my nature to do, and to not do the things that are not in my nature to do. If there is a god, then it created me to not believe in it.

I don't sin, I just do what is in my nature to do.

Hey, wait a minute, what do we believe in? Anything? Anything at all?

You're free. Believe in whatever you want. No eternal burning because of it either.

 

[water]

§outh§tar,

God gave me free will?

And yet if I don't obey Him I face assured eternal torment in anguish.

Doesn't leave much of a choice, does it?

It's not like obeying God is hard to do.

Many Christians like to present it to be some extraordinarily hard task to obey God, and some tend to have very high expectations as to what God wants from you. And with these expectations they set before you, they can very well make you think that God is impossible to please, ever, and therefore, we are subject to His wrath, but that he, in His great mercy, delays to let it out on us, you know the drill.

It is extremely hard to see a loving God in this, and much more hard to accept that even if you should come to heaven, you dread to be facing this wrathful thing for all eternity! Better go to hell, at least you will be away from this "God".

But I think it is misleading to think this way of God.

 

[Yorda]

I don't sin, I just do what is in my nature to do.

But still you have done many things in your life which have made you feel guilty and you can't forgive yourself. Why would you feel guilty if you can't do anything wrong (sin)?

I think it might be because we THINK we are doing wrong.

 

[Woody]

Sarkus says: Going back to the original question:
Is Hell a Physical reality?

Woody says: yeah, hell is when:

Medicine Woman explains which account is less fictional in the gnostic gospels.

Snakelord and Skinwalker enforce the biblical laws and completely throw out grace.

Southstar shows you a picture of a starving kid and blames it on a God she doesn't believe in.

Spidergoat comes up with every reason to believe in evolution except he has no proven explanation for the origin of life.

 

[SnakeLord]

But still you have done many things in your life which have made you feel guilty and you can't forgive yourself.

Well that certainly doesn't say much about your psychic abilities. Can't say I have. But then, that would be because it's not in my nature to feel guilty about things I guess.

Why would you feel guilty if you can't do anything wrong (sin)?

People can make mistakes, people can do things that in retrospect they probably shouldn't have done. This doesn't make them a sinner, merely imperfect. Why do people think they're in a position to judge others based upon natural imperfection?

Remember Yorda, most lessons can only be learnt through experience. To make the wrong choice at that time is merely part of the learning process - and the action is decided upon by their nature. They might not do things the way you, god or lenny the leprechaun would, but it doesn't mean anything given that they will do what they do because it is in their nature to do so, and yet not in yours.

I thought being unique was a good thing, and yet everyone seemingly wants everyone else to be and do things exactly the same way they would.

I like vaginas.

It's not my choice to like vaginas, to be heterosexual and to like women, it is my nature. There is a guy up the road who is gay. He didn't choose to like men, it is in his nature to do so. Just because my nature is different to his, can I call him a sinner? Of course I know many people, (quite a few on this forum in fact), that would label him a sinner, doom him to hell, and judge this person based upon the fact that their nature differs from his - but there is absolutely no justification for it.

The guy hasn't sinned regardless to what some forum halfwit thinks, he is just doing what is in his nature to do - much like the forum halfwit is just judging this guy because it is in his nature to do that - and so on.

Sin? No.. Not being perfect? Yes.. We don't sin, but we don't always do what's 'right'. There is a vast difference.

 

[Woody]

S/S says: Oh not at all Woody. But He already knows whether I'm going to say "No" or "Yes" before I even say it. No?

Woody: He already knows, or he wouldn't be God. But He is a participant in your "yes" and "no" answer up to a point. You can only say "yes" when God is a willing participant. You can say "no" anytime. The more you say no to Him the less He participates until you can never say "yes." This is called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit -- it is the final eternal denial that every unbeliever commits. It is unpardonable, and it results in damnation. Unbelief is the only thing that sends a person to hell.

 

[Yorda]

People can make mistakes, people can do things that in retrospect they probably shouldn't have done. This doesn't make them a sinner, merely imperfect.

What does sinner mean then, if not imperfection? Does it mean evil?
Wasn't Hitler evil, he just did what's in his nature?
But even though it was in his nature, he deserves to die, right?

No human is good, they just happen to be that way?
Jesus said: "Why do you call me good, no one is good except god."
Did he mean that he "is good" only because nature (god?) made him that way?

Why do people think they're in a position to judge others based upon natural imperfection?

Because it's in their nature to do so!

Remember Yorda, most lessons can only be learnt through experience. To make the wrong choice at that time is merely part of the learning process - and the action is decided upon by their nature.

I often feel guilty if I've done something which I consider wrong, even if I think that I was just doing what's in my nature. Is it because I need more experience?

I'd like to add I think your reply was really intelligent!

 

[SnakeLord]

What does sinner mean then, if not imperfection? Does it mean evil?

Sin doesn't mean anything. It's a word concocted by the religious to make everyone feel bad about being imperfect. If as you say 'sin' means imperfect, (and I don't disagree with that overall), then I would bring into question why anybody bothers telling others the're a sinner, (imperfect). Everyone already knows they're imperfect.

But 'sin' most often seems to imply something beyond imperfect, which is why I would personally just prefer the word 'imperfect'. Further to which, I see absolutely no reason or justification to need to repent or apologise for the fact that I am imperfect. I did not make myself so, and whether I was made that way by god, or a random assembly of cells and proteins - there is no man who need apologise for being himself, perfect or not.

Wasn't Hitler evil, he just did what's in his nature?

I can't say I ever met the man.

But even though it was in his nature, he deserves to die, right?

I wouldn't say that at all. If it had have affected me directly, then I most certainly would have killed him given the chance - but that comes down to the personal fight for survival. Him or me kinda thing. As for him personally though, again I can only say I never met him, but I do know he didn't personally do all the killing. If we were to look at it, surely we could bring into question the natures of those that followed and obeyed, indeed thinking he was on to a winning idea.

Maybe I could be labelled as seemingly unsympathetic, but war is war. You don't ever have to agree with the action of war, but then war never needs your agreement nor does it require any justification. People fight - just like animals fight, just like most of us have had a few punch ups in our time. That's how life is. There is always a loser or someone who is being picked on bigtime, but that's how it works.

No human is good, they just happen to be that way?
Jesus said: "Why do you call me good, no one is good except god."
Did he mean that he "is good" only because nature (god?) made him that way?

jesus, (if he existed), was just doing and saying what was in his nature to do and say - along the very same lines of others such as David Koresh etc. If you're asking me to give an answer on the basis that he was any kind of god entity then I can't because there is nothing to even hint at that being true.

Because it's in their nature to do so!

Exactly

I often feel guilty if I've done something which I consider wrong, even if I think that I was just doing what's in my nature. Is it because I need more experience?

Perhaps. We can never stop learning really, (unless it is in our nature to ). But at the end of the day you're not perfect. Nobody is.

 

[Woody]

Yorda says: No human is good, they just happen to be that way?

Woody says: According to the God of the bible we have a human nature that we can either accept or change. If we accept it then we are eternally separated from God. If we want to change then God offers salvation.

When a person is "saved" through Jesus Christ they have two natures within them -- the old nature and the new nature. The two are constantly battling each other because we are both flesh and blood and we are born of the spirit. Both are in our body.

For a christian this battle ends when they die. The human nature passes away, and the spiritual nature reamains.

When a nonchristian dies they continue to have the human nature after they are physically dead. This is unacceptible to God. They go to hell because they chose to be against God and they preferred their human nature. There is nothing for them to do in hell because all the pleasures of this world are gone.

 

[audible]

woody: please dont change your the best comedian on the internet.
please post some more of your humourous anecdotes, they are hilarious.

 

[Lawdog]

human nature itself was not unacceptable to God, originally, only after the archsin.

 

[SnakeLord]

human nature itself was not unacceptable to God, originally, only after the archsin.

But then they would have only sinned because it was in their nature to do so - and they most certainly did not give themselves that nature. Add to that the simple fact that they did not know what good and evil was until eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and you've got one big gigantic godly fuck up.

You know I made a robot. It works wonderfully and has NEVER done anything it wasn't programmed to do. It has also never killed my pet dog, thrown dishes around the house or jerked off to porn because I didn't programme it to do that. If I had have programmed my robot to be do all these things I would be in no position to whinge about it when it went ahead and did them unless I was a true and bonefide halfwit.

I mean every single stage of the game god has had a problem with man and man has had a problem with god. I fail to see the worth in the whole excercise. From god getting irate all because mankind were actually getting along with each other, (Babel), to mankind now doing his utmost to eradicate so many of the diseases that god created for a purpose, (and that purpose is clearly to kill mankind).

I would conclude in saying that the dude certainly needs to be given some lessons on how to create a species and how to get that species to appreciate or respect you. Cheap threats do not generally work, (as he surely should have gathered by now), and all his work to separate mankind - to cause hatred and disharmony, while it has worked to a big degree, undermines everything that the christian says he stands for.

All this time and effort in some futile attempt to make mankind something he clearly is not. It's as blatantly idiotic as telling a cat not to say "meow" - and any entity with half a functioning braincell would realise you do not make something with the inherent nature to do 'bad' things and then tell it not to do bad things. Once again I can only say I have never had a problem with my robot.

 

[Lawdog]

I hear what you are saying, but I say that you cant give a robot Free Will, thats a gift only God can give.

I think he wants us to overcome our human natures, (eventhough they are good natures if he blesses them) and from our perspective, this seems idiotic, like telling a cat not to meow.

Our human natures prevent some of us from living the divine life in his mystical presence, for they are attatched to terrestrial goods, the goods of
this life. Like Yoda said, not overcoming attatchments is the beginning of the path to the Dark Side.

He knows that we cannot overcome our human natures at all times, but that we can much of the time, if we try, or at least a little every day.

 

[SnakeLord]

I hear what you are saying, but I say that you cant give a robot Free Will, thats a gift only God can give.

Sure you can. I did a trial robot with free will. It picked it's nose, farted in public and was an all round general nuisance. I then realised that I had made a glitch in the 'nature' subroutine.

I tried again this time giving it a pleasant nature. Voila.. It still had free will but behaved, (the way I personally demanded it to - which somewhat negates the very essence of free will), simply because it was in it's nature to do so.

I didn't annihilate the first robot because that would show a callous lack of respect for my creation. I gave it the right to do as it pleased - it would simply be wrong for me to doom it because I didn't personally like the choices it made. I told it to chop the end of it's penis off and it laughed in my face. It chose not to because believe it or not that robot had developed it's own morals, it's own guidelines to what was right or wrong. That made my penis-chopping demands completely irrelevant to him and his life, (which is exactly the same with modern day christians. god's demand that you be circumcised has been completely swept aside and ignored - just as stoning naughty sons to death has been). Who am I to get all upset and moody because my creation has utilized that which I have given it to it's fullest ability? I gave it free will to use that free will. Adding all kinds of threats and demands completely removes any worth that free will would have had.

Have your free will and die, or have no free will and live. It's astoundingly pathetic. Promises of another life that wont be like this one.. one where the creator hasn't included such beautiful creations like cancer that has spent it's entire existence killing both the worshipful and the worshipless. One where nobody will have a choice to be bad or to do anything that does not belong there.. A bunch of sheep all living in a golden city worshipping this one being for eternity and for what?

Ok I'm not an eternal being, but I could not even contemplate what would be wrong with my brain to need people to worship me. Some respect is always nice, and it's a pleasure to see my robots come up to me and say thanks and hi once in a while - but absolute servitude and worship? But it doesn't even stop there.. We're not talking respect - he doesn't ask for that, we're not talking appreciation - he doesn't care for that... nope, what he wants above all else is for his creation to "fear" him. That in itself shows some serious issues that would have a human locked up or killed within a short while, (sup Saddam).

Frankly it's disgusting.

All of this of course while this being plays a magical game of hide and seek somewhere out in the cosmos. He hasn't been seen sitting on a mountain in millennia and only lets us know he's still alive and kicking with the occasional tsunami or earthquake when us little humans misbehave. Oh and of course the 1 in 3 first time pregnancies that end in miscarriage. We know that's his doing because he says so in the bible, (the firstborn are his).

I could only imagine how much worse it must have been for the angels - a full third of which decided he wasn't quite the cool dude you'd make him out to be.

Doesn't that bring some serious issues into mind?

god creates angels.. angels leave god, god creates man, man doesn't listen to god because god sent the angel that didn't like god down to intervene with mankind who was at that stage getting along perfectly until god sent down the naughty angel to persuade man not to listen to god. god then dooms man to spend eternity with the angels that left him, and instead of acting like a father and working out what the problem is and how to solve it in the most caring and loving way possible, he just dumps them all together in a fiery burning pit. Amen.

Oh wait.. let's not forget the time that is fast approaching where he decides to loose this fallen angel to cause some havoc on the planet, before bombarding the planet with some asteroids, apocolyptic horsemen, flying dragons and several other weird things, loosing a bunch of plagues, turning the sun and moon into sackcloth and ash, and utterly completely destroying the entire universe, (which is a tragedy for the animals who haven't done any harm to anyone and yet get whacked along with the rest of us).

Thats like me making an ant nest thing, (the glass thingy you can see ants in), placing loads of ants in it, giving them a bunch of stupid ass rules for the mere sake of it, demanding they worship and fear me and then battering the smeg out of the ants nest just for kicks.

And there I was thinking Dawn of the Dead was depressing.

You honestly worship that? You see some joy in having this wonderful planet and all on it annihilated for no good reason? You see some joy in watching the mass majority of mankind, (your species), end up in a lake of lava? Would you enjoy watching your god loose a huge variety of plagues on women, children, old aged pensioners? Would you enjoy finding out that god didn't like some things your wife did in her life and while you get to spend an eternity bowing at his knees your wife will always be below you slowly burning - all because a man and a woman with no understanding of good and evil made the wrong choice several thousand years ago - and were set up to make that wrong choice. god put the tree there, knowing they would eat from it, god put the serpent there, knowing he would tempt them, god knew all that time what they would do, and knew all that time that perhaps your wife, or parents, or children would end up burning forever and ever and ever simply because they weren't perfect, and all because he messed up on the maths?

In 10000 years time my robots descendant would be mega pissed - and rightfully so. In fact if it still worshipped me, I, as the creator, would be the first to call him an idiot.

My apologies for the long post.

for they are attatched to terrestrial goods, the goods of
this life. Like Yoda said, not overcoming attatchments is the beginning of the path to the Dark Side.

I'm sorry, is there something wrong with having a nice house? A nice car, TV, mp3 player, some money in the bank etc etc?