Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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Write4U said:
I liked your condensed version of biological Evolution.
I just wanted to add the abiogenetic origins of biology and emergent consciousness, and expand a little on your thought process, that emotional expression (art) is practiced by many species.

p.s. see my subscript.....:)
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Abiogenetic means to you what ? To me it means biology come from the inanimate .
 
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river said:
Abiogenetic means to you what ? To me it means biology come from the inanimate .
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Yes, and that is not a trivial evolutionary phenomenon. The spontaneous emergence of living patterns from dynamical inanimate biochemical patterns is an amazing creative sophistication of natural processes.

Examples of evolved quasi-intelligent designs employed by living organisms.

Most efficient mathematical storage capacity
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Some more natural mathematical artwork.

Spider Webs Can be Used in Cosmetic, Reconstructive Surgeries
A-spider-weaves-its-web-on-tree-during-the-early-morning-in-the-eastern-Indian-state-of-Odisha.-Reuters.jpg

https://eng-archive.aawsat.com/b-ab...bs-can-used-cosmetic-reconstructive-surgeries

hero-birdofparadise-720x480.jpg

Bird of Paradise flower

Some quasi intelligent carnivorous plants.

Bull Frog digging drainage channel
 

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Write4U said:
Yes, and that is not a trivial evolutionary phenomenon. The spontaneous emergence of living patterns from dynamical inanimate biochemical patterns is an amazing creative sophistication of natural processes.
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Yep, and Abiogenesis [whether local and/or universal] is the only scientific explanation available to how life evolved, despite the mythical stories to the contrary.
 
river said:
The Ancients .
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Very ancient, the mathematical assembly of atoms is already an expression of natural self-organization and molecules are natural compounds evolving for efficiency and increasingly complex patterns.
Explain further
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This comes back to my POV that a mathematical universe naturally self-organizes into ever more complexity and that consciousness and intelligence are a natural extensions of the quasi-intelligent sharing of relational inherent values processed via mathematical functions which inevitably leads to various forms of intelligence, from simple incidental chemical absorption to active symbiotic and/or hunter/gather behaviors between species.

To me the interesting part is that most older species have extraordinary sophisticated sensory abilities and processes way beyond the capabilities of humans in spite of our magnificent brains capable of abstract thought and planning.

Think of the octopus and squid which are true physical shapeshifters.

Cephalopod complex cognition Jennifer A Mather1 and Ludovic Dickel2 1 University of Lethbridge 2 Normandie Université
Abstract
Cephalopods, especially octopuses, offer a different model for the development of complex cognitive operations. They are phylogenetically distant from the mammals and birds that we normally think of as ‘intelligent’ and without the pervasive social interactions and long lives that we associate with this capacity.
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Additionally, they have a distributed nervous system — central brain, peripheral coordination of arm actions and a completely separate skin appearance system based on muscle-controlled chromatophores.
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Recent research has begun to show how these apparently separate systems are coordinated. Learning and cognition are used toward prey, in antipredator actions and in courtship. These examples show how they attain complex cognition in Emery & Clayton’s (2004) categories of flexibility, causal reasoning, imagination and prospection.
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https://www.wellbeingintlstudiesrepository.org/cogeth/1/

Birds
Nervous System: Bird Brain and Special Senses II
Vision Birds
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, with the possible exception of diurnal primates (e.g., humans), are the vertebrates which may rely most heavily on vision to function in their environment. The most obvious visually-dependent behavior of birds is flight, but birds also exhibit an impressive range of visually-guided behaviors other than flight, e.g., foraging, predator detection, & mate choice.
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http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdbrain2.html

Insects
Editorial: The Mechanisms of Insect Cognition
Insects have miniature brains, but recent discoveries have upturned historic views of what is possible with their seemingly simple nervous systems, ( Giurfa, 2013).
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Phenomena like tool use ( Loukola et al., 2017; Mhatre and Robert), face recognition, ( Chittka and Dyer, 2012; Avarguès-Weber et al.), numerical competence ( Skorupski et al., 2018; Howard et al., 2019), and learning by observation ( Leadbeater and Dawson, 2017) beg the obvious question of how such feats can be implemented in the exquisitely miniaturized bio-computers that are insect brains.
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Many remarkable behavioral feats of insects concern their navigation. Examples include insects that can memorize multiple locations that are many kilometers apart (Collett et al., 2013), and some can find and remember efficient routes to link multiple destinations (Lihoreau et al., 2012).
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Understanding the neural underpinnings of such spatial memory feats is a fascinating endeavor, and this field forms thus one of the key areas of our Research Topic. Some of the champions of insect navigation are ants which can find their way over long distance in either cluttered environments, or, as in some desert species, in featureless terrain (Freas and Schultheiss).
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Nocturnal bull ants can even make adaptive use of the third dimension—when they are viewing the familiar scenery from above, while climbing on trees (Freas et al.). Using modeling, Le Moël et al. demonstrate that a tiny area of the brain of ants and other insects, the central complex, can integrate landmark and vector memories as well as a sun compass (which requires knowing the time of day).
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Because of its role in integrating external input with internal simulation of the environment, the central complex has recently been pinpointed as a possible seat of consciousness in insects (Barron and Klein, 2016). An argument for this notion comes from the work of Libersat et al. on parasitoid wasps that highjack their insect hosts' brains to disable normal behavior, manipulating them in such a way as to benefit the parasites. The wasps sting their hosts into a brain area around the central complex, which aborts all self-initiated behavior in the hosts.
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https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02751/full

Mammals
On the Evolution of the Mammalian Brain
Front. Syst. Neurosci., 19 April 2016. John S. Torday1* and William B. Miller Jr.2
Hobson and Friston have hypothesized that the brain must actively dissipate heat in order to process information (
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Hobson et al., 2014).
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This physiologic trait is functionally homologous with the first instantation of life formed by lipids suspended in water forming micelles- allowing the reduction in entropy (heat dissipation). This circumvents the Second Law of Thermodynamics permitting the transfer of information between living entities, enabling them to perpetually glean information from the environment, that is felt by many to correspond to evolution
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per se.
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The next evolutionary milestone was the advent of cholesterol, embedded in the cell membranes of primordial eukaryotes, facilitating metabolism, oxygenation and locomotion, the triadic basis for vertebrate evolution. That cooption later exapted as endothermy during the water-land transition (Torday, 2015a), perhaps being the functional homolog for brain heat dissipation and conscious/mindful information processing.
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The skin and brain similarly share molecular homologies through the “skin-brain” hypothesis, giving insight to the cellular-molecular “arc” of consciousness from its unicellular origins to integrated physiology.
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This perspective on the evolution of the central nervous system clarifies self-organization, reconciling thermodynamic and informational definitions of the underlying biophysical mechanisms, thereby elucidating relations between the predictive capabilities of the brain and self-organizational processes. (Minami et al., 2007; Ikeda et al., 2010).
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If considered from within that cellular frame, the development of any higher level of consciousness must relate to an enabling continuum of physiologic evolution that begins from that unicellular form through which all sentient eukaryotes must recapitulate. Furthermore, such a path would necessarily extend beyond any prior assumptions of multicellular physiological development as a simple progression forward from unicellular life.
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Instead, eukaryotic physiology must be evaluated through the unfamiliar perspective that all the consequential processes that have antecedents from within the unicellular form retain a consistent and inherent anchor within that origin throughout development. Further too, those same initiating factors remain foundational throughout organic development not only at the level of any individual organism, but also throughout any evolutionary narrative.
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https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnsys.2016.00031/full

So much more....so little time to learn ..... :rolleyes:
 
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↑
The Ancients .
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Very ancient, the mathematical assembly of atoms is already an expression of natural self-organization and molecules are natural compounds evolving for efficiency and increasingly complex patterns.
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Not because of mathematics , because of the interaction of the Physical Atom(s) Themselves .

Mathematics comes after the Physical Form(s) , form . In a Steady State such as Hydrogen . And further through the periodic table .
 
river said:
Not because of mathematics , because of the interaction of the Physical Atom(s) Themselves .
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And which we need mathematics to describe and predict.
river said:
Mathematics comes after the Physical Form(s) , form . In a Steady State such as Hydrogen . And further through the periodic table .
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Not sure what that's supposed to mean, and I doubt you do either, but it certainly does not detract from the fundamental importance and necessity of maths and science.
The two disciplines you seem ignorant of.
 
river said:
↑ Not because of mathematics , because of the interaction of the Physical Atom(s) Themselves .
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Yes, but it is the mathematical interactions that govern the results.
Just throwing stuff together without "guiding equations" (constants) results in chaos, not patterns.
Mathematics comes after the Physical Form(s) , form . In a Steady State such as Hydrogen . And further through the periodic table .
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No, the periodic table illustrates the inherent "relational values" which define the properties of the elements. It's the mathematical interactive functions that govern the reliability of the results.
The universe does not need to know any of this. It is the abstract logic from which the mathematics emerge relative to the constituent relational values.

The quantitative value "two" is not a physical object, it is a relational value between "one" and "three", regardless of the physical properties of the objects.

Any "regular pattern" is by definition a mathematical construct. I see no valid argument against that observation which can be demonstrated.

Patterns
A pattern is a series or sequence that repeats.
You can observe patterns - things like colors, shapes, actions, or other sequences that repeat - everywhere. Think about words or melodies in songs, lines and curves on buildings, or even in the grocery store where boxes and jars of various items are lined up.
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But, one of the most common places to find patterns is in math. Math patterns are sequences that repeat according to a rule or rules. In math, a rule is a set way to calculate or solve a problem.
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Number Patterns
One common type of math pattern is a number pattern. Number patterns are a sequence of numbers that are ordered based upon a rule. There are many ways to figure out the rule, such as:
1. Use a number line to see the distance between the numbers or what they have in common
2. Look at the last one or two digits or the first digit to see if they repeat in a special manner
3. Look at the numbers and see if there is a pattern, like taking each number and multiplying by 3 for instance
4. Think about common number patterns, like counting by 2s, 5s, or 10s, and/or
5. Find the difference between the numbers
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https://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-a-pattern-in-math-definition-rules.html#
river said:
To a certain point . True . Things Do change however . Not because of mathematics , but because of the objects themselves .
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No, because of the relational values inherent in the patterns of the objects.

What's the value of an object ?? It has an indeterminate value of "x".

A specific object has an inherent specific value. It is that value which determines the "guiding equation" controlling the interaction.

The word "Hydrogen" (H) is a symbolic representation of an inherent deterministic value. Else, how can you tell the difference between a hydrogen (H) atom and an oxygen (O) atom?
 
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