Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[billvon]

Diffusion is a passive function and has nothing to do with "delivering information" to specific areas in the body and brain via the microtubule network.

Nerves deliver information to each other via diffusion.

These proteins are not distributed via "diffusion". They are distributed by MT to specific sites where these proteins are needed.

Once again you read a report and didn't understand it.

P63 is one of the motor proteins that the endoplasmic reticulum uses to move stuff along. From the report: "a motor protein that binds to microtubules provides motility and a cargo protein that anchors the motor molecule to the membrane." This describes a motor protein that allows the endoplasmic reticulum to move microtubules along, and an "anchor" protein that keeps the assembly anchored to the ER.

In other words the microtubule is the thing being moved, not the thing doing the transporting. Think of the ER as the road, the motor proteins as the truck and the microtubules as lumber they are moving somewhere else in the cell.

 

[Write4U]

Nerves deliver information to each other via diffusion.

No they don't. Nerves deliver information via active (not passive) synaptic exchange. In that process any diffusion is undesirable because any loss in informational content degrades the "specific" information.

In fact some functional neural information is "amplified" by "neurotransmitters" during the synaptic exchange.

Section 21.4 Neurotransmitters, Synapses, and Impulse Transmission

As noted earlier, synapses are the junctions where neurons pass signals to other neurons, muscle cells, or gland cells. Most nerve-to-nerve signaling and all known nerve-to-muscle and nerve-to-gland signaling rely on chemical synapses at which the presynaptic neuron releases a chemical neurotransmitter that acts on the postsynaptic target cell (see Figure 21-4).

In this section we discuss the types of molecules that function as transmitters at chemical synapses, their origin and fate, and their effects on postsynaptic cells. Because the ability of neurotransmitters to induce a response depends on their binding to specific receptors in the postsynaptic membrane, we introduce the major classes of receptors in this section; individual receptors are examined in more detail in the next section. We also briefly discuss electric synapses, which are much rarer, but simpler in function, than chemical synapses.

Go to: Many Small Molecules Transmit Impulses at Chemical Synapses

Numerous small molecules synthesized in the cytosol of axon terminals function as neurotransmitters at various chemical synapses. The “classic” neurotransmitters are stored in synaptic vesicles, uniformly sized organelles, 40 – 50 nm in diameter.

With the exception of acetylcholine, the classic neurotransmitters depicted in Figure 21-28 are amino acids or derivatives of amino acids. Nucleotides such as ATP (see Figure 2-24) and the corresponding nucleosides, which lack phosphate groups, also function as neurotransmitters.

Each neuron generally produces just one type of classic neurotransmitter. Following their exocytosis from synaptic vesicles into the synaptic cleft, neurotransmitters bind to specific receptors on the plasma membrane of a postsynaptic cell, causing a change in its permeability to ions.

I know there is diffusion across synapses, but that is not passive diffusion as in "cell membranes".
That is like saying electricity is diffused across a lightswitch. Technically correct but nowhere near the concept of diffusing random excess static electricity into the "ground".

Stages in neurotransmission at the synapse
Main article: Chemical synapse

1. Synthesis of the neurotransmitter. This can take place in the cell body, in the axon, or in the axon terminal.
2. Storage of the neurotransmitter in storage granules or vesicles in the axon terminal.
3. Calcium enters the axon terminal during an action potential, causing release of the neurotransmitter into the synaptic cleft.
4. After its release, the transmitter binds to and activates a receptor in the postsynaptic membrane.
5. Deactivation of the neurotransmitter. The neurotransmitter is either destroyed enzymatically, or taken back into the terminal from which it came, where it can be reused, or degraded and removed.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmission#

 

[river]

No they don't. Nerves deliver information via active (not passive) synaptic exchange. In that process any diffusion is undesirable because any loss in informational content degrades the "specific" information.

In fact some functional neural information is "amplified" by "neurotransmitters" during the synaptic exchange.

Section 21.4 Neurotransmitters, Synapses, and Impulse Transmission Go to: Many Small Molecules Transmit Impulses at Chemical Synapses

To your last statement ;

Agreed .

What though are these , small molecules ?

 

[Michael 345]

Consciousness is not to be FOUND anywhere it is a PROCESS

If someone is unconscious nobody goes looking around for the unconscious persons conscious

Not even inside the body. If they go inside the body the look for the cause which stopped the PROCESS of CONSCIOUSNESS

 

[billvon]

No they don't.

A neuron fires. It releases neurotransmitters. They drift via diffusion through the synapse to the next nerve. From Neuroscience for Kids:

"The neurotransmitter molecules then diffuse across the synaptic cleft where they can bind with receptor sites on the postsynaptic ending to influence the electrical response in the postsynaptic neuron." https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html

For God's sake, take a high school biology course. You will avoid looking so f'ing stupid all the time.

 

[Write4U]

Consciousness is not to be FOUND anywhere it is a PROCESS

I agree. It is an emergent sensory experience.

If someone is unconscious nobody goes looking around for the unconscious persons conscious

During an operation anesthesia separates the conscious person from the sub-conscious homeostatic control mechanism of the person.
Anil Seth: "Anesthesia turns a person into an object (vegetative state) and back into a person".

Not even inside the body. If they go inside the body the look for the cause which stopped the PROCESS of CONSCIOUSNESS

They know that Microtubule catastrophe is at least partly responsible for Alzheimers disease (a loss of personhood), for one. We know that MT are associated with consciousness, which "resides in the brain".

 

[Write4U]

A neuron fires. It releases neurotransmitters. They drift via diffusion through the synapse to the next nerve. From Neuroscience for Kids:

"The neurotransmitter molecules then diffuse across the synaptic cleft where they can bind with receptor sites on the postsynaptic ending to influence the electrical response in the postsynaptic neuron." https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html

For God's sake, take a high school biology course. You will avoid looking so f'ing stupid all the time.

Sorry, you are confusing "neurotransmitters" with "information" as I explained to you.
Better do some more reading on "neurotransmitters".

It is the neurotransmitters which must be diffused after enabling the transmission of information, but are NOT part of the transmitted information.
Just like static electricity is diffused into ground after transmission of electricity.

 

[billvon]

Sorry, you are confusing "neurotransmitters" with "information" as I explained to you.

Neurotransmitters are the carriers that transmit information between nerves.

Just like static electricity is diffused into ground after transmission of electricity.

No it's not like that at all. Electrons don't "get deactivated" like neurotransmitters do.

I guess you need a high school physics course too.

 

[Write4U]

This may clarify:
The Synapse

Neurons have specialized projections called dendrites and axons. Dendrites bring information to the cell body and axons take information away from the cell body.

Information from one neuron flows to another neuron across a synapse. The synapse contains a small gap separating neurons. The synapse consists of:

1. a presynaptic ending that contains neurotransmitters, mitochondria and other cell organelles
2. a postsynaptic ending that contains receptor sites for neurotransmitters
3. a synaptic cleft or space between the presynaptic and postsynaptic endings.

Electrical Trigger for Neurotransmission

For communication between neurons to occur, an electrical impulse must travel down an axon to the synaptic terminal.

Neurotransmitter Mobilization and Release

At the synaptic terminal (the presynaptic ending), an electrical impulse will trigger the migration of vesicles (the red dots in the figure to the left) containing neurotransmitters toward the presynaptic membrane. The vesicle membrane will fuse with the presynaptic membrane releasing the neurotransmitters into the synaptic cleft. Until recently, it was thought that a neuron produced and released only one type of neurotransmitter. This was called "Dale's Law." However, there is now evidence that neurons can contain and release more than one kind of neurotransmitter.

Diffusion of Neurotransmitters Across the Synaptic Cleft

The neurotransmitter molecules then diffuse across the synaptic cleft where they can bind with receptor sites on the postsynaptic ending to influence the electrical response in the postsynaptic neuron. In the figure on the right, the postsynaptic ending is a dendrite (axodendritic synapse), but synapses can occur on axons (axoaxonic synapse) and cell bodies (axosomatic synapse).

When a neurotransmitter binds to a receptor on the postsynaptic side of the synapse, it changes the postsynaptic cell's excitability: it makes the postsynaptic cell either more or less likely to fire an action potential.

If the number of excitatory postsynaptic events is large enough, they will add to cause an action potential in the postsynaptic cell and a continuation of the "message."

Many psychoactive drugs and

neurotoxins can change the properties of neurotransmitter release, neurotransmitter reuptake and the availability of receptor binding sites

The postsynaptic ending is a dendrite

(axodendritic synapse), but synapses can occur on axons (axoaxonic synapse) and cell bodies (axosomatic synapse).

When a neurotransmitter binds to a receptor on the postsynaptic side of the synapse, it changes the postsynaptic cell's excitability: it makes the postsynaptic cell either more or less likely to fire an action potential. If the number of excitatory postsynaptic events is large enough, they will add to cause an action potential in the postsynaptic cell and a continuation of the "message."

Many psychoactive drugs and neurotoxins can change the properties of neurotransmitter release, neurotransmitter reuptake and the availability of receptor binding sites.

Types of Synapses

p.s.

"You are your synapses. They are who you are."
--- Joseph LeDoux, 2002 (in Synaptic Self)

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html

 

[Write4U]

continued....

Mechanism[edit]


Synaptic vesicles containing neurotransmitters
See also: Neurotransmission

Neurotransmitters are stored in synaptic vesicles, clustered close to the cell membrane at the axon terminal of the presynaptic neuron. Neurotransmitters are released into and diffuse across the synaptic cleft, where they bind to specific receptors on the membrane of the postsynaptic neuron.[5] Binding of neurotransmitters may influence the postsynaptic neuron in either an excitation or inhibitory way, depolarizing or repolarizing it respectively.

Most of the neurotransmitters are about the size of a single amino acid; however, some neurotransmitters may be the size of larger proteins or peptides. A released neurotransmitter is typically available in the synaptic cleft for a short time before it is metabolized by enzymes, pulled back into the presynaptic neuron through reuptake, or bound to a postsynaptic receptor. Nevertheless, short-term exposure of the receptor to a neurotransmitter is typically sufficient for causing a postsynaptic response by way of synaptic transmission.

Generally, a neurotransmitter is released at the presynaptic terminal in response to a threshold action potential or graded electrical potential in the presynaptic neuron. However, low level 'baseline' release also occurs without electrical stimulation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter#

Neurotransmitters themselves are not the information being transmitted. They make controlled transmission possible, after which they serve no further purpose.
Does this clarify ?

 

[Write4U]

No it's not like that at all. Electrons don't "get deactivated" like neurotransmitters do.

I didn't claim that. You made the claim that neurotransmitters are the information that is being transmitted via diffusion across synaptic receptors . That is an incorrect model. Now you are trying to weasel out from under.

 

[Michael 345]

Anil Seth: "Anesthesia turns a person into an object (vegetative state) and back into a person".

Anil Seth obviously not in the medical profession and while I sort of understand what is meant by that remark it could / should be better expressed

Anesthesia turns a sentinent person into an non sentinent person and returns the non sentinent back to a sentinent person

They know that Microtubule catastrophe is at least partly responsible for Alzheimers disease

May well be the case but then you spoil it with

We know that MT are associated with consciousness, which "resides in the brain".

immediately after agreeing

Consciousness is not to be FOUND anywhere it is a PROCESS

wth

I agree. It is an emergent sensory experience.

The following post go back to talking about nuts, bolts and washers

I'm short on internal coffee

 

[Write4U]

W4U said; ↑
We know that MT are associated with consciousness, which "resides in the brain".

Michael said; immediately after agreeing that;
Consciousness is not to be FOUND anywhere it is a PROCESS

Yes, it is a process in, and an emergent product of the brain. Descartes "brain in a vat".

 

[Write4U]

A little refresher , (new version)

For a peek at microtubule function start @ 13:50

 

[Michael 345]

A little refresher , (new version)

For a peek at microtubule function start @ 13:50

Hint 20 minutes probably to long

 

[Write4U]

Hint 20 minutes probably to long

That's why I recommended to start at 13:50 into the demonstration. Did you miss that? I try to make it easy.

 

[Write4U]

In other words the microtubule is the thing being moved, not the thing doing the transporting. Think of the ER as the road, the motor proteins as the truck and the microtubules as lumber they are moving somewhere else in the cell.

ER manufacture information. There is only one ER in every cell . Hundreds of MTs transport information inside and between cells.
The MT are the highways that transport and drop off information at their targeted locations.

What are microtubules?

3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.

-----------------------------------

What do microtubules do in neurons?

Microtubules in a neuron are used to transport substances to different parts of the cell. For example, neurotransmitters are made in the cell body close to the nucleus, but need to travel long distances to the end of axons where they will be used for synaptic transmission.

https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/1/microtubules.shtml

 

[Write4U]

Anil Seth obviously not in the medical profession and while I sort of understand what is meant by that remark it could / should be better expressed

I think that was a perfect analogy.
btw, Anil Seth is an accredited and acknowledged scientist in a recognized scientific context

Anesthesia turns a sentinent person into an non sentinent person and returns the non sentinent back to a sentinent person

But a sentient brain IS the person. Remove the sentience and the person ceases to exist and only an organic shell in a vegetative state remains, an organic object.

Recall Seth; "I recently had an operation and needed anesthesia. Then I woke up and had no experience at all of time passed. I could have been "gone" 5 minutes, 5 hours, 50 days, 50 years, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~."I simply wasn't there!"

From personal experience I can testify to that "gap in sentience" and "loss of personhood", during anesthesia.

The experience of "personhood" is produced by the self-referential brain processes. When the brain stops processing, the person ceases to exist, at least temporarily. Not dead, but only as a biological object, but no different from a vegetable.

Again, Descartes' "Brain in a vat"......

p.s. we are not talking about "interoception" which is the subconscious control mechanism that "keeps the body alive", while the "person is gone".

All living objects have controlled homeostasis, it's a common denominator in all living things.

But that is only a quasi intelligence, not Experiential "Consciousness" or "Agency" ...

 

[Write4U]

Some background.

Anil Seth on why our senses are fine-tuned for utility, not for ‘reality’;
" It’s easy to mistake our conscious experience for an ongoing, accurate account of reality. After all, the information we recover from our senses is, of course, the only window we’ll ever have into the outside world. And for most people most of the time, our perception certainly feels real. But the notion that our senses capture an objective external reality can be dispelled by considering something as fundamental as colour, which can be culturally influenced and, even within a single culture, leave the population split between seeing the same picture of a dress as black-and-blue or white-and-gold."

In this installment from Aeon’s In Sight series, Anil Seth, professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience at the University of Sussex in the UK, puts our imperfect relationship with reality in perspective. In conversation with Nigel Warburton, consultant senior editor at Aeon+Psyche, Seth argues that it’s not just that our perceptions provide flawed accounts of the outside world, but that our brains aren’t in the business of recovering the outside world to begin with. So it’s more accurate to think of our conscious experience as a series of predictions that we’re incessantly and subconsciously fine-tuning – a world we build from the inside out, rather than the outside in.

https://aeon.co/videos/anil-seth-on-why-our-senses-are-fine-tuned-for-utility-not-for-reality

 

[Write4U]

W4U said; "controlled hallucinations"

Michael said; ↑
controlled hallucination
No such animal

That's all there is for a brain.

Reality is reality, a shared hallucination is a shared hallucination

It is a little more complicated than that......

Perception is not about seeing truth, it is about survival and having offspring .....

Think about it. It makes perfect sense in context of evolutionary processes.