Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[river]

Ability to process greater volume and depth in calculations. Science today deals with astronomically large numbers.

Thus both in terms of spikes and synaptic transmission, the brain can perform at most about a thousand basic operations per second, or 10 million times slower than the computer. The computer also has huge advantages over the brain in the precision of basic operations.
Why Is the Human Brain So Efficient?
http://nautil.us/issue/59/connections/why-is-the-human-brain-so-efficient

The faster you go , the less wisdom you find .

 

[Write4U]

The faster you go , the less wisdom you find .

That depends on the program. Humans also have to learn (acquire) wisdom from study and observation, self-programming. But AI like Sophia can be programmed to always ask questions about everything, just like a small child at first, but at ever greater sophistication.

The more data the brain can process, the more paralell referential data it can store and the deeper paralell research it can perform in a short time.

Today's chess computers are beating our Grand Masters. Their speed allows them to test (calculate) all possible answers to the opponents possible moves, several moves into the future.

Deep Blue

Deep Blue was a chess-playing computer developed by IBM. It is known for being the first computer chess-playing system to win both a chess game and a chess match against a reigning world champion under regular time controls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer)

Deep Blue was programmed to learn from each game it plays.
So, if an AI is granted access to all the great thinkers, there is no reason why a computer should not be able to base decisions on available wisdom, if it is logical.

Logic vs Wisdom - What's the difference?

Logic is the systematic study of valid rules of inference, i.e. the relations that lead to the acceptance of one proposition (the conclusion) on the basis of a set of other propositions (premises). More broadly, logic is the analysis and appraisal of arguments

There is no universal agreement as to the exact definition and boundaries of logic, hence the issue still remains one of the main subjects of research and debates in the field of philosophy of logic (see § Rival conceptions).

However, it has traditionally included the classification of arguments; the systematic exposition of the logical forms; the validity and soundness of deductive reasoning; the strength of inductive reasoning; the study of formal proofs and inference
(including paradoxes and fallacies); and the study of syntax and semantics of formal proofs
and inference (including paradoxes and fallacies); and the study of syntax and semantics.

A good argument not only possesses validity and soundness (or strength, in induction), but it also avoids
circular dependencies, is clearly stated, relevant, and consistent ; otherwise it is useless for reasoning and persuasion, and is classified as a fallacy.

In ordinary discourse, inferences may be signified by words such as

therefore, thus, hence, ergo, and so on.

Historically, logic has been studied in philosophy (since ancient times) and mathematics (since the mid-19th century). More recently, logic has been studied in cognitive science, which draws on computer science, linguistics, philosophy and psychology, among other disciplines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

 

[Write4U]

Sophia is a cool AI robot. The trick is to cram as much data into small spaces. For its size the human brain is incredibly efficient as a data processor.
That's the one thing which restricts current robots . But the the more powerful and faster we can make the AI, the more data it can store and process in small spaces. It's not that far around the corner, IMO.

 

[river]

Sophia is a cool AI robot. The trick is to cram as much data into small spaces. For its size the human brain is incredibly efficient as a data processor.
That's the one thing which restricts current robots . But the the more powerful and faster we can make the AI, the more data it can store and process in small spaces. It's not that far around the corner, IMO.

Be careful of speed and data processing . They do not necessarily lead to wisdom .

 

[Write4U]

Be careful of speed and data processing . They do not necessarily lead to wisdom .

That may be true, but slow and ignorant is a sure recipe for disaster...

 

[Write4U]

Just one clip about Sophia, and more which involves contributions by Hanson, Mossbridge, and Hameroff, and a more in-depth exploration of current technology and knowledge of what causes consciousness and paralell processing of several different sensory inputs.

 

[billvon]

Sophia is a cool AI robot. The trick is to cram as much data into small spaces. For its size the human brain is incredibly efficient as a data processor.

It is a terrible data processor. It is a remarkably efficient inference engine. Which is pretty much the opposite of computers, at least until about 20 years ago.

 

[Write4U]

An interesting article on; Cell Migration
Abstract

Migration is a polarized cellular process that opposes a protrusive front edge to a retracting trailing edge. From the front to the rear, actin-mediated forces sequentially promote cell protrusion, adhesion, contraction, and retraction.

Over the past decade, microtubules have revealed their pivotal role in cell migration. Through their roles in cell mechanics, intracellular trafficking, and signaling, microtubules participate in all essential events leading to cell migration.

The front-rear polarization of microtubule functions relies on the asymmetric regulation of microtubule dynamics and stability; the asymmetric distribution of microtubule-associated protein complexes; and finally, the orientation of the microtubule network along the axis of migration.

Microtubule network polarity controls the establishment and maintenance of the spatial and temporal coordination of migration events and is therefore the key to persistent directed migration. This review summarizes our current understanding of the functions of microtubules in persistent cell migration and of the migration-associated signals that promote microtubule network polarization.

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-cellbio-101011-155711

and the role microtubules play in cell migration; Microtubules in Cell Migration
Abstract

Directed cell migration is critical for embryogenesis and organ development, wound healing and the immune response. Microtubules are dynamic polymers that control directional migration through a number of coordinated processes: microtubules are the tracks for long-distance intracellular transport, crucial for delivery of new membrane components and signalling molecules to the leading edge of a migrating cell and the recycling of adhesion receptors.

Microtubules act as force generators and compressive elements to support sustained cell protrusions. The assembly and disassembly of microtubules is coupled to Rho GTPase signalling, thereby controlling actin polymerisation, myosin-driven contractility and the turnover of cellular adhesions locally.

Cross-talk of actin and microtubule dynamics is mediated through a number of common binding proteins and regulators. Furthermore, cortical microtubule capture sites are physically linked to focal adhesions, facilitating the delivery of secretory vesicles and efficient cross-talk.

Here we summarise the diverse functions of microtubules during cell migration, aiming to show how they contribute to the spatially and temporally coordinated sequence of events that permit efficient, directional and persistent migration.....more.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6823166/

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said: ↑
Sophia is a cool AI robot. The trick is to cram as much data into small spaces. For its size the human brain is incredibly efficient as a data processor.

It is a terrible data processor. It is a remarkably efficient inference engine.

It depends on what you mean by "data" and "processing" and "inference engine", no?

Which is pretty much the opposite of computers, at least until about 20 years ago

Yes, when we (our brains) started developing AI, self-referential (inferential) computers. That was 20 years ago!

This is the definition I use to base my value of "data" on; Data processing

Data processing is, generally, "the collection and manipulation of items of data to produce meaningful information."[1] In this sense it can be considered a subset of information processing, "the change (processing) of information in any manner detectable by an observer."

The term Data Processing (DP) has also been used to refer to a department within an organization responsible for the operation of data processing applications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_processing

In humans this data organizing center is made up from microtubules, the MTOC (microtubule organizing center). See post # 1510
http://mtoc-explorer.org/

The human brain is not a purely electronic processor, it is an electro-chemical processor, which means it can process chemical data as well as electronic data, which IMO, allows for emotional experiences, a chemical response mechanism, such as production of pheromones or endorphins, to data, which produces a meaningful experience, an ability which AI does not posess, yet.

Smell you later! Chemosignals communicate human emotions
Date: November 5, 2012
Source:

Association for Psychological Science
Summary:
Many animal species transmit information via chemical signals, but the extent to which these chemosignals play a role in human communication is unclear. Researchers have investigated whether we humans might actually be able to communicate our emotional states to each other through chemical signals.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121105140407.htm

p.s. did you notice that Sophie now uses a cloud which connects her with other AI and can use their collective stored information to reference against her own? All she needs to learn is how to ask the question, no problem there!

IMO, the implications of that are astounding. Now AI are no longer restricted by "memory space". In a shared "cloud" they have unlimited storage capacity and potential access to all internet referential "data".
Of course, humans also have the ability to access the Internet "cloud" . We just cannot do that as fast as electronic computers.

In fact, even using paralell circuits, it takes a human +20 years to store sufficient data to allow its own brain to be able to draw inferences from it's stored memories against received sensory data.
And even then it is a "best guess" (inference) by the brain. Anil Seth.

Using the cloud, an AI could potentially learn this much in a day at the much greater processing speed than human brain, but until we can program "emotion" (reward incentive?) into AI they can only express programmed "pseudo-emotional" responses to received sensory data. Sophie is actually pretty good at that.

 

[billvon]

It depends on what you mean by "data" and "processing" and "inference engine", no?

Right. If you use the definitions of those words, then my statement is true.

Now AI are no longer restricted by "memory space". In a shared "cloud" they have unlimited storage capacity and potential access to all internet referential "data".

?? This has been true for about 15 years. Alexa is an example.

 

[Write4U]

Right. If you use the definitions of those words, then my statement is true.

OK

?? This has been true for about 15 years. Alexa is an example.

Yes, diversification of AI functionality is about on the right track. Another 10-30 years and AI may well have reached "maturity" from "infancy". Same as a human child. Of course, humans have to start from scratch everytime they are born, whereas an autonomous AI has access to all information contained in the cloud the instant it is activated.

It's quite possible that AI may lead us to understand how "consciousness" itself evolves.

 

[Write4U]

Michael said; I'm waiting for the thread

THE MATHEMATICS OF MICROTUBULES

Here it is;
Comparative Studies of Microtubule Mechanics with Two Competing Models Suggest Functional Roles of Alternative Tubulin Lateral Interactions

From a mathematical modeling perspective, an MT and related tubulin-based polymers are modeled either as continuous manifolds or as interacting discrete objects. For the latter a widely used scheme is to model individual αβ-tubulin heterodimers as rigid bodies interacting through longitudinal and lateral bonds as described in available MT cryo-electron microscopy (cryo-EM) structures. Computational studies with this model (which we will refer to as L1) have had significant success in explaining a number of experimental observations (18–20).....more

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3379015/

 

[Write4U]

A microtubule 'roadway' in the retina helps provide energy for vision

Researchers have discovered a thick band of microtubules in certain neurons in the retina that they believe acts as a transport road for mitochondria that help provide energy required for visual processing. The findings appear in the July issue of The Journal of General Physiology.

The retina is a layer of tissue in the back of the eye that converts light into nerve impulses. The retina contains small, specialized neurons called bipolar cells that transmit information from light-sensitive photoreceptor cells to ganglion neurons, which send information to the brain for interpretation as images.

Bipolar cells are continuously active, a characteristic few other neurons share. They require a constant supply of energy to mediate the sustained release of the contents of an enormous number of synaptic vesicles, which store the transmitters that convey information between neurons. An intriguing new study of their subcellular structure could help explain how bipolar synaptic terminals meet such excessive energy demands.

Isolated Goldfish Retinal Bipolar Cell (IMAGE)
ROCKEFELLER UNIVERSITY PRESS

CAPTION;
Fluorescently labeled microtubules extend from the tips of the dendrites (top) into the axon and down into the giant synaptic terminal (bottom) of a single isolated goldfish retinal bipolar cell. A loop of microtubules encircles the inner plasma membrane of the terminal and anchors mitochondria.
CREDIT
Graffe et al., 2015

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-06/rup-am062415.php#:

 

[river]

OK
Yes, diversification of AI functionality is about on the right track. Another 10-30 years and AI may well have reached "maturity" from "infancy". Same as a human child. Of course, humans have to start from scratch everytime they are born, whereas an autonomous AI has access to all information contained in the cloud the instant it is activated.

It's quite possible that AI may lead us to understand how "consciousness" itself evolves.

To your last statement

How would ai do this ?

 

[Write4U]

To your last statement

How would ai do this ?

Interoception and Visceroception. Humans have both but visceroception is a subconscious ability, used only by the brain for autonomous monitoring and controlling of organ functions.

Interoceptive signals arise from many different physiological systems of the body. The most commonly studied system is cardiovascular interoception which is typically measured by directing attention towards the sensation of the heartbeat during various tasks.[10][11][12] Other physiological systems integral to interoceptive processing include the respiratory system, gastrointestinal and genitourinary systems, nociceptive system,
thermoregulatory system, endocrine and immune systems. Soft cutaneous touch is another sensory signal often included within the interoceptive processing system.

The contemporary definition of interoception is not synonymous with the term “visceroception”.

Visceroception refers to the perception of bodily signals arising specifically from the viscera: the heart, lungs, stomach, and bladder, along with other internal organs in the trunk of the body.[8] This does not include organs like the brain and skin.

Interoception encompasses visceral signaling, but more broadly relates to all physiological tissues that relay a signal to the central nervous system about the current state of the body.[9] Interoceptive signals are transmitted to the brain via multiple pathways including (1) the lamina I spinothalamic pathway, (2) the classical viscerosensory pathway, (3) the vagus nerve and glossopharyngeal nerve, (4) chemosensory pathways in the blood, and (5) somatosensory pathways from the skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoception

An AI would be able to access this control mechanism and study it's properties and functions.
i.e. humans have no sensory perception of individual cells or neural synapses. An AI would be able to actively monitor those areas of sensory perception.

 

[river]

Interoception and Visceroception. Humans have both but visceroception is a subconscious ability, used only by the brain for autonomous monitoring and controlling of organ functions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoception

An AI would be able to access this control mechanism and study it's properties and functions.
i.e. humans have no sensory perception of individual cells or neural synapses. An AI would be able to actively monitor those areas of sensory perception.

Which changes every millisecond .

The autonomic parts of the Brain are subconscious for a reason Write4U . So you don't have to be aware . So you can think of other things .

 

[Write4U]

Some interesting optical illusions, involving the transmission of data via microtubules and showing the limitation of the brain in being able to process certain types of information.

 

[Write4U]

Will the Octopus ever cease to amaze and delight?

Analysis of Microtubules in Isolated Axoplasm from the Squid Giant Axon

Microtubules have been studied extensively since the buffer conditions for in vitro polymerization were first described. As a result, the biochemistry and biophysics of microtubule dynamics is relatively well understood in the test tube. However, our understanding of microtubules in situ is limited at best. In cells, microtubules exhibit considerable diversity at the molecular level, including tubulin isotypes, posttranslational modifications, and associated proteins.

Microtubules in different cell types or even in different subcellular compartments may exhibit strikingly different properties with regard to dynamics, composition and function. This heterogeneity is particularly striking in neurons, where the bulk of the microtubules are not associated with the microtubule-organizing center, yet may exhibit exceptional stability. The answers to questions about the functional diversity of neuronal microtubules may be critical for understanding many aspects of neuronal development, function and pathology.

One obstacle to characterizing specific populations of neuronal microtubules is the complexity of nervous tissue. Separating neuronal microtubules from glial microtubules, dendritic microtubules from axonal or cell body microtubules is effectively impossible when using brain tissue as a source, so any studies on the biochemistry and biophysics of neuronal microtubules from brain reflect the properties of a mixed pool. The problem is compounded by the fact that a large fraction of neuronal tubulin is lost during standard preparations of brain tubulin and this population of stable microtubules has received little attention, despite representing more than 50% of axonal tubulin in mature neurons.

Isolated axoplasm from the squid giant axon provides a unique model system for studying exclusively axonal microtubules both in situ and in vitro. Although isolated axoplasm has not been widely used, experiments using this model have provided novel insights into the axonal cytoskeleton and studies on axoplasm have the potential to produce additional insights. Here, we describe the preparation of isolated axoplasms, the use of physiological buffers that more accurately reflect intracellular environments and examples of experiments that can only be done in this model system (Figure 1).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460999/bin/nihms695239f1.jpg

Open in a separate window
Figure 1
Flow chart for preparation of axoplasms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460999/

 

[river]

Will the Octopus ever cease to amaze and delight?

Analysis of Microtubules in Isolated Axoplasm from the Squid Giant Axon

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460999/bin/nihms695239f1.jpg

Open in a separate window
Figure 1
Flow chart for preparation of axoplasms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460999/

All this Write4U , Based on the Physical .

Not Mathematics , but Physical things .

 

[Write4U]

All this Write4U , Based on the Physical .

Not Mathematics , but Physical things .

This thread is not about mathematics. It's about Microtubules..