Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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THEY WON'T LET ME BREATHE. THE KNEE IS FIRMLY PLANTED ON MY NECK
THEY WANT ME DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my fifteen years on SciFo, this is the most disgusting thing I have seen - and that includes the racist skinheads.

Write4U mocks a horribly murdered man for his own petty ego.

I'm more convinced than ever Write4U is a bot that knows nothing of the meaning of human words.
 
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In my fifteen years on SciFo, this is the most disgusting thing I have seen - and that includes the racist skinheads.

Write4U mocks a horribly murdered man for his own petty ego.

I'm more convinced than ever Write4U is a bot that knows nothing of the meaning of human words.
Yes ,I think we deserve an apology and explanation from Write4U
 
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Thank you for your contribution....:)
And of course the nucleus is even more amazing, containing most of the genetic information the cell carries. It is not only able to carry all that information accurately for decades, but is also able to duplicate it, and measure both time and cell divisions (by telomere erosion.) Having a limit to cell division is critical to preventing cancers. It also allows RNA transcription to occur; the RNA then moves along the reticulum to ribosomes where proteins are synthesized.
DNA is not a dynamic pattern. It is hardwired chemical information that is copied by microtubules during mitosis. DNA only changes when mixed with the mate's DNA or by mutation, both becoming transcribed by MT, but not by storing sensory information.
So absolutely microtubules have a role in consciousness. Without them, neurons would die and we would lose consiousness (and die soon afterwards.) But that's true of everything else listed above. So while they are undoubtedly important, they are important solely because they allow the neurons that form our brains to work - not because they imbue the cells they inhabit with any inherent communicative properties.
But they do! MT are the ONLY communicative property a cell is imbued with. Every dendrite that is connected to the neural network is made from "shielded" microtubules (axons).
And they are pretty cool. But cooler than the foreign invaders that power our cells? More miraculous than the nucleus that stores hundreds of terabytes of information reliably for decades? Probably not
The point is that we are not talking about what keeps the body alive. Obviously all of our organs plus the 90% bacteria that convert chemicals for our benefit, keep us alive, else we would not possess them. None of that is being disputed.

But the argument that I need a cell nucleus in order to remember what I had for breakfast is problematic, IMO.

OTOH, we know that microtubules are the main processor and transport mechanism of dynamic sensory information. We know that MT pyramids store sensory information in dynamic "memory" mudules, which have absolutely nothing to do with DNA or RNA hardwired chemical

We know that information itself has no connection to "consciousness", the ability to process dynamic sensory information as it is experienced. For that you need MT. Everything else is "information" being processed and directed to their proper destinations. The distribution network responsible for this is the MT and micro-fibrils, which makes it the natural candidate for being the platform in an emergent conscious experience of the sensory information being processed.

Roles of Cell Organelles in Mitosis
By Dr. Mary Dowd, Updated July 30, 2019
For the cell to live on and divide, organelles must be team players and work together with impeccable timing. Each organelle has an assigned job that contributes to cell stability and DNA replication through mitosis. Key organelles that make mitosis go as planned include the nucleus, mitotic spindle and microtubules. Checkpoints during the cell cycle help correct errors and prevent serious problems such as chromosome abnormalities
Organelles Involved in Cell Division
The nucleus is a like a locked safe where all instructions for cell growth are stored in the form of RNA and chromatin. In preparation for mitosis, genetic material increases in the nucleus. When mitosis starts, chromosomes condense, and the nuclear envelope around the nucleus disintegrates to free the chromosomes. The nuclear envelope reforms around the chromosomes after cell division, and the chromosomes return to the nucleus in anticipation of another cell cycle.
Microtubules are hollow, tubular proteins in the cell’s cytoskeleton that can expand and contract quickly depending on the cell’s needs. Microtubules work in tandem with motor proteins. As part of the spindle apparatus, microtubules help position, separate and pull apart chromosomes when the cell divides during mitosis.
When a cell prepares to make a copy of itself, cylindrical-shaped centrioles leave their post by the nucleus and head to opposite poles of the cell. Centrioles are microtubules that push out stringy fibers in a circular fashion, creating the appearance of a flowering aster. Centrioles in animals are thought to have a role in aligning and separating chromosomes; however, their function isn’t entirely clear since plant cells lack centrioles but still form spindle fibers.
https://sciencing.com/roles-cell-organelles-mitosis-22199.html

Neuron_Cell_Body.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(biology)#/media/File:Neuron_Cell_Body.png

Note: all organelles in the cell produce information (stuff), except for the MT, which do not produce stuff but process and transport stuff throughout the body.

Note; a MT does not produce stuff but it can regulate it's own dynamic growth in accordance to the information that needs processing. IOW. MT is the only organelle that is able to adjust its own growth pattern (!!!!!) apart from any DNA instructions and adjust it's own electro-chemical properties to accommodate the transport of pertinent electro-chemical sensory information.

If we are looking for that which may be causal to "consciousness", MT are the only natural sensory information processing and distributing network, directly connected to the "senses" and the "brain", not the isolated organelles that produce specific electro-chemicals within a cell.
 
Yes understood. Anyway, it has nothing to do with consciousness, which, once upon a time ( :rolleyes:) , was what this thread was supposed to have been exploring. :biggrin:
Are you accusing me of derailing this thread?
And you are correct, that "once upon a time" was when I was posting pertinent information in spite of every attempt at trying to derail this thread from scientific inquiry to vulgar ad hominem slinging. Every piece of scientific information in this post was originated by me with a few welcomed positive contributions. I am the one trying to keep this thread on the rails.
Who started this thread anyway? Anybody want to lay claim to the science part of this thread now?
Yes ,I think we deserve an apology and explanation from Write4U
There you go. A me-too latecomer who wants to get a few kicks in himself. Just keep that intellectual boot firmly down on my neck.

The current mob mentality on this forum goes something like this;
"No fresh breath of scientific import allowed for this racist moron bot who dares to try and talk about microtubules as if he has the secret to "consciousness". "For shame".
"OFF WITH HIS HEAD! "

You don't have a clue as to what's going on here, do you? Do some reading before you start passing some kneejerk judgement about something you know nothing about.
 
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DNA is not a dynamic pattern.
It is a dynamic pattern. Telomeres erode, shortening the DNA and eliminating information. Methylation changes which parts of DNA are active. The 'core' of any DNA strand remains relatively fixed in terms of its codons, which is what people refer to when they say that DNA never changes. But everything from aging to viruses change even that core DNA with time.
It is hardwired chemical information that is copied by microtubules during mitosis.
Microtubules are one part of the process of mitosis. They are not "copied by" microtubules - microtubules merely form the spindles that align chromosomes for mitosis.
DNA only changes when mixed with the mate's DNA or by mutation, both becoming transcribed by MT
Nope. See above.
but not by storing sensory information.
Agreed. DNA does not store sensory information.
But they do! MT are the ONLY communicative property a cell is imbued with.
More of your woo. That has no basis in reality. Microtubules are part of what makes a neuron work. It is the neuron's functioning, not the activity of microtubules, that causes propagation of neural impulses.
Every dendrite that is connected to the neural network is made from "shielded" microtubules (axons).
Nope. Axons are part of the cell. They have cytoplasm, a cell membrane etc like any other cell. The are a bunch of microtubules in the axon initial segment (AIS) but not many in the axon itself. Look at the diagram you yourself copied and posted.
OTOH, we know that microtubules are the main processor and transport mechanism of dynamic sensory information.
Not true at all. They are merely one part of the neuron, the cell that is the primary transport for neural activity (including sensory information.)
 
If anybody wants this thread to remain focused on the question in the OP title, please stop with the ad hominem and prejudicial verbal personal attacks and try to contribute positive information to the conversation.

If you think I'm gonna act like Trump and produce my birth certificate because someone accuses me of having a Orangutan father, you've have absolutely no understanding of the chronology of intellectual bigotry in this thread.
 
There you go. A me-too latecomer who wants to get a few kicks in himself. Just keep that intellectual boot firmly down on my neck.

The current mob mentality on this forum goes something like this;
"No fresh breath of scientific import allowed for this racist moron bot who dares to try and talk about microtubules as if he has the secret to "consciousness". "For shame".
"OFF WITH HIS HEAD! "

You don't have a clue as to what's going on here, do you? Do some reading before you start passing some kneejerk judgement about something you know nothing about.

I have no idea what ails you but be sure I will not be replying to you again
- although I will report your scummy posts if I have the misfortune to see them again.
 
It is a dynamic pattern. Telomeres erode, shortening the DNA and eliminating information. Methylation changes which parts of DNA are active. The 'core' of any DNA strand remains relatively fixed in terms of its codons, which is what people refer to when they say that DNA never changes. But everything from aging to viruses change even that core DNA with time.
Yes, the cellular growth patterns contained in DNA are subject to change. But DNA does not process anything. Any dynamic change in DNA is caused by age, mutation, or injury. It is not part of the daily processing of trillions of bits of sensory inputs.

DNA Is Constantly Changing through the Process of Mutation
EssGen_DeletionMutation_SQUARE.jpg
DNA is a dynamic and adaptable molecule. As such, the nucleotide sequences found within it are subject to change as the result of a phenomenon called mutation. Depending on how a particular mutation modifies an organism's genetic makeup, it can prove harmless, helpful, or even hurtful. Sometimes, a mutation may even cause dramatic changes in the physiology of an affected organism. Of course, in order to better understand the varying effects of mutations, it is first necessary to understand what mutations are and how they occur.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/dna-is-constantly-changing-through-the-process-6524898/
Microtubules are one part of the process of mitosis. They are not "copied by" microtubules - microtubules merely form the spindles that align chromosomes for mitosis.
OK, what mechanisms does the copying?
W4U said; DNA only changes when mixed with the mate's DNA or by mutation, both becoming transcribed by MT
Nope. See above.
Indeed.
Agreed. DNA does not store sensory information.
But that is the subject under discussion! Conscious awareness and emotional experience of sensory observations. The distribution of this "information" requires a transport network, which is provided by the microtubular (neural) transport network evolved for that function throughout the entire organism.

There are more microtubules in the body than any other organelle (a functionally networked pattern).
There are trillions of MT. MT provide the structural integrity to the entire body as well as being part of their information transport system.
W4U said; But they do! MT are the ONLY communicative property a cell is imbued with.
More of your woo. That has no basis in reality. Microtubules are part of what makes a neuron work. It is the neuron's functioning, not the activity of microtubules, that causes propagation of neural impulses.
I beg to differ. Microtubules are muchmore versatile than that. Consider the Centrosome.

Centrosome


The structure of the centrosome

The generalized structure and molecular components of a cell
In cell biology, the centrosome (Latin centrum 'center' + Greek sōma 'body') is an organelle that serves as the main microtubule organizing center (MTOC) of the animal cell, as well as a regulator of cell-cycle progression. The centrosome is thought to have evolved only in the metazoan lineage of eukaryotic cells.[1] Fungi and plants lack centrosomes and therefore use structures other than MTOCs to organize their microtubules.[2][3] Although the centrosome has a key role in efficient mitosis in animal cells, it is not essential in certain fly and flatworm species
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrosome
Nope. Axons are part of the cell. They have cytoplasm, a cell membrane etc like any other cell. The are a bunch of microtubules in the axon initial segment (AIS) but not many in the axon itself. Look at the diagram you yourself copied and posted.
Yep, axons are the cables that contain the MT bundles. But again you undersestimate the pervasiveness of MT and the role they play in information transmission, reception, and consciousness in general
Not true at all. They are merely one part of the neuron, the cell that is the primary transport for neural activity (including sensory information.)
I disagree. Axons contain MT bundles, they transport a lot of information at the same time..o_O

PD-spindle-green-MT-red-kinetichore-blue-DNA--300x224.jpg

Note; the green fibers are only the microtubules involved in mitosis only! The cell has many more microtubules that transport products from organelles to other organelles inside and outside the cell.
Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron - Jon Lieff, M.D.
Axons can have as many as 100 bundles of microtubules in one axon cross section. There are many variations in these lattices with different types of stabilizing molecules, different orientations, and many different associated molecules and co factors.Nov 29, 2015
http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/are-microtubules-the-brain-of-the-neuron

https://slideplayer.com/slide/4452523/

The use of the word neural is a generality, like saying the "house is the primary transport for human telephone activity". The information transport system in all eukaryotic organisms requires microtubules, which end and begin in transmitting synapses and receiving synapses of the cell's dendrites. Just as humans transmit information to each other via telephone cables
Another area where microtubules are essential is the development of the nervous system in higher vertebrates, where tubulin's dynamics and those of the associated proteins (such as the microtubule-associated proteins) is finely controlled during the development of the nervous system.
Gene regulation
The cellular cytoskeleton is a dynamic system that functions on many different levels: In addition to giving the cell a particular form and supporting the transport of vesicles and organelles, it can also influence gene expression. The signal transduction mechanisms involved in this communication are little understood. However, the relationship between the drug-mediated depolymerization of microtubules, and the specific expression of transcription factors has been described, which has provided information on the differential expression of the genes depending on the presence of these factors.
This communication between the cytoskeleton and the regulation of the cellular response is also related to the action of growth factors: for example, this relation exists for connective tissue growth factor.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28877466/
 
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I have no idea what ails you but be sure I will not be replying to you again
Strange , I am asking the same question of the people that have used me for an ad hominem shooting gallery, these past 6 months....
................ forgive the poetic liberty.
- although I will report your scummy posts if I have the misfortune to see them again.

You will not ever find me uttering an ad hominem unless in response. You will NEVER hear me engage in racial discrimination, verbal or in practice. You're talking to a jazz musician here, the very idea is ludicrous.
I once helped Ella Fitzgerald take off her shoes between sets, because her feet hurt. She was a lovely lady.

Why don't you read some of my 14,000 posts which contain not a single ad hominem unless actually provoked, by some smart ass interloper. Or uttered a single racial slur, EVER in my entire life.

You don't know me and your prejudicial behavior and threats of censorship based on hear-say are totally out-of bounds.
All you are accomplishing is sowing seeds of distrust and disgust against an innocent victim. Do you see the analogy?

You don't think Censorship is a form of persecution? Ask Gallileo. Recant or you die. He recanted and was punished for being a heretic. I'll NEVER recant something I am not guilty of. I would rather die!

I reserve the right to use historical tragedies as examples similar in principle to what is going on here.
I certainly do not enjoy the free speech others are so terribly abusing against me without penalty.

I am the injured party here, no one has ever been injured by anything I have professed.
 
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Write4U mocks a horribly murdered man for his own petty ego.
Do you see me mocking anybody?

Has anybody here witnessed violent death? I have. As a child in Amsterdam, I saw our Jewish family doctor and his wife, who lived across the street from us, killed by a German patrol. Was I mocking that?

Has anybody here witnessed the lines people being selected for transport to the concentration camps? I have. Very similar to the poor dreamers who are being caged at the US border. Am I mocking that?

Does anybody here know anything about me? I admit I know very little about you, but I can prove it has been you and a couple of other intellectual correctness police who have been mocking my intellect, my veracity, my character, relentlessly.

Apparently, now you want to add an accusation of racism to the mix too?

When are you going to stop this silly game? Grow up man.

This whole "theatre of the bizarre" which is playing today is not even wrong.
 
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Do you see me mocking anybody?

Has anybody here witnessed violent death? I have. As a child in Amsterdam, I saw our Jewish family doctor and his wife, who lived across the street from us, killed by a German patrol. Was I mocking that?

Has anybody here witnessed the lines people being selected for transport to the concentration camps? I have. Very similar to the poor dreamers who are being caged at the US border. Am I mocking that?

Does anybody here know anything about me? I admit I know very little about you, but I can prove it has been you and a couple of other intellectual correctness police who have been mocking my intellect, my veracity, my character, relentlessly.

Apparently, now you want to add an accusation of racism to the mix too?

When are you going to stop this silly game? Grow up man.

This whole "theatre of the bizarre" which is playing today is not even wrong.
What an asshole.
 
Whereas you are being murdered just like George Floyd.
No, I am purposefully being deprived of a chance to discuss an issue of scientific interest. There is a concerted effort to shut this thread down, for absolutely no reason at all. Why, I have no idea, but I have several times tried to continue a meaningful discussion, which I am being denied. There are some who would see this thread closed (killed), the product of many hours of research and containing some very current information on the growing knowledge of the abilities and importance of microtubules.
The analogy is stark but, accurate.

The hystrionics are the shrill voices of "disapproval" and "condemnation" by some, not mine.
 
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No, I am purposefully being deprived of a chance to discuss an issue of scientific interest.
1) It is only of interest to you.
2) YOU INTENTIONALLY COMPARED YOURSELF TO FLOYD. Floyd was murdered by police. You are being criticized because you are posting woo. If you do not understand the difference between those two things, you are about as big a fool as they make.
 
1) It is only of interest to you.
2) YOU INTENTIONALLY COMPARED YOURSELF TO FLOYD. Floyd was murdered by police. You are being criticized because you are posting woo.
And what gives you the authority to judge me, or any of the authoritative minds I base my perspective.
The only "hard facts" I have posted are from reliable sources and web-sites. The subject is not woo. Your refusal to consider (research) current knowledge. Your post #1507 is no more than repeating what I posted many months ago, complete with links.

I did notice a few apparent errors on your part, which I addressed on the merits in post #1510.

I could easily criticize you for posting woo, or a lack of actual knowledge, but I would rather continue the conversation on amicable terms instead of casually slinging around prejudicial statements.
They are never productive.
If you do not understand the difference between those two things, you are about as big a fool as they make.
I see, "as big a fool as they make", is your scientific diagnosis?
Well then, if I am as big a fool as you say, should you not treat me with more compassion and understanding? Perhaps you are not quite as nice as you like to see yourself. Your bedside manner is atrocious! Making fun of the village fool and warning others of the dangers the fool poses to the scientific community.
 
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