Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[billvon]

you realize exchemist unwittingly accused you of spouting "bilge". What do you have to say about that?

??? He did not. Are you daft?

He asked me what I meant by "atomic." I explained how I was using the term.

Yes it does. If microtubules are not present there is no information processing. Your logic is atrocious.

If sodium is not present there is no information processing, either. Therefore, by your logic, consciousness is found in sodium.

 

[billvon]

I won't waste my time on trivia. I'll leave that up to you.

So you ask a question but do not care what the answer is, beyond its potential use to attack me over it.

You are becoming a textbook troll.

 

[Write4U]

So you ask a question but do not care what the answer is, beyond its potential use to attack me over it.

You are becoming a textbook troll.

Now you are beginning to understand the grief you have caused me over a span of several months. You are the "science troll". You are a troll because you condemn and sling ad hominems indiscriminately without cause, whereas my criticsm of you is well deserved.

Don't like your own medicine?

 

[exchemist]

You just questioned his use of the term "atomic" Are you going to let him off the hook and transfer that comment as originating from me and calling it "bilge".

billvon , you realize exchemist unwittingly accused you of spouting "bilge". What do you have to say about that? Yes it does. If microtubules are not present there is no information processing. Your logic is atrocious.
You're just getting caught up in your own confusion.
You're completely missing the point. Everything above is correct except it neglects to stipulate that the part of the neuron that does the actual work are the microtubules inside the neuron. MTs perform the transmission of "afferent" and "efferent" electrochemical signals. They are like the copper wires in an electrical cable. We also say electrical cables transmit and fire electrical impulses. But the part of the electrical cable that does the work is the copper wire. And so it is with microtubules inside the neuronal cell body and axons and synapses.

Synapses are fed and fire information received from microtubules!!!! Do you see the analogy to electric wires within electric cables and electric connectors?

Actin microfilaments are the main cytoskeletal
components present at both presynaptic and postsynaptic terminals in glutamatergic synapses. However, in the last few years it has been demonstrated that microtubules (MTs) transiently invade dendritic spines, promoting their maturation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations
Abstract
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2

I suggest to familiarize yourself with microtubules at a deeper level. The more you learn about this little coil, the more sense it makes that MTs have to be the "workhorses" of biological cells.
The fact that Microtubule motor-processors are a common denominator of all Eukaryotic organisms makes it the only (remaining) candidate for any consideration about consciousness.

You are mad. Barking.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

A better question would be is a H2O molecule "wet"?

In some countries it is.

:edit:

 

[Write4U]

??? He did not. Are you daft? No you seem to be daft.
He asked me what I meant by "atomic." I explained how I was using the term.

No he did not. He quoted me and responded to my post.
This is the chronology

The common thread here is that it is the NEURON - the fundamental atomic element of any neural network - that allows for learning and for that emergent property we call consciousness. If you could replace a neuron's microtubules, sodium, nucleus or mitochondria with something that does the same thing, then you'd still be conscious. If you could replace neurons entirely with a silicon based system (that functions the same way) then again you'd still be conscious. It is the NEURON, not microtubules (or any other fragment of a neuron) that allows consciousness.

To which exchemist gave you a "like".

W4U said; I agree and I'm happy to see that you at least have included the term atomic element in the description of any neural network.

In response to my agreement with you exchemist said;

exchemist said: What?
What have atomic elements got to do with anything here, apart from being the constituents of the molecules that make up living things?

Obviously that comment was directed at me, not you. That prompted me to bring to your attetion that you first used the word "atomic" and asked you:

W4U said; OK, billvon, what do you have to say about that?

Then you explained your use of the word "atomic", which exchemist endorsed with another "like".

So we have a demonstrated duplicity. I agree with you on the use of the word "atomic" and am rewarded with exchemist rant . Then you explain your use of the word "atomic" and exchemist gives you a "like". But never offered an explanation or apology for understanding your use of the word "atomic". Exchemist questioned my agreement with you, which demonstrates the sheer "kneejerk" response of exchemist to all of my posts. Prejudicial!

If sodium is not present there is no information processing, either. Therefore, by your logic, consciousness is found in sodium.

I don't know how you can possible arrive at that ridiculous and completely false conclusion.

That's like saying; "if there is no information, there is no information processing". Well duhhhh!

 

[Write4U]

You are mad. Barking.

You are the one barking (pissing), up the wrong tree at that....

 

[exchemist]

No he did not. He quoted me and responded to my post.
This is the chronology
To which exchemist gave you a "like". In response to my agreement with you exchemist said; Obviously that comment was directed at me, not you. That prompted me to bring to your attetion that you first used the word "atomic" and asked you: Then you explained your use of the word "atomic", which exchemist endorsed with another "like".

So we have a demonstrated duplicity. I agree with you on the use of the word "atomic" and am rewarded with exchemist rant . Then you explain your use of the word "atomic" and exchemist gives you a "like". But never offered an explanation or apology for understanding your use of the word "atomic". Exchemist questioned my agreement with you, which demonstrates the sheer "kneejerk" response of exchemist to all of my posts. Prejudicial!
I don't know how you can possible arrive at that ridiculous and completely false conclusion.

That's like saying; "if there is no information, there is no information processing". Well duhhhh!

Yup, barking.

I think this is the "strawberries" moment, in The Caine Mutiny courtroom scene.

 

[Write4U]

BwS said; What's more conscious, a hydrogen atom or a water molecule?
:edit: Maybe a hydrogen atom or oxygen one?

W4U said: ↑ A better question would be is a H2O molecule "wet"?

In some countries it is.
:edit:

lol, well I am from Holland so I know about "water". Wetness depends on distribution density of H2O molecules. It doesn't make water conscious, but at the right density H2O does acquire the property of liquid "wetness". Other H2O densities might result in solid "ice" or gaseous "water-vapor"

Water vapor,
water vapour or aqueous vapor is the gaseous phase of water. It is one state of water within the hydrosphere. Water vapor can be produced from the evaporation or boiling of liquid water or from the sublimation of ice.
Solid state: Ice
Specific gas constant: 461.5 J/(kg·K)
Boiling point: 99.98 °C (373.13 K)
Heat of vaporization: 2.27 MJ/kg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor[/quote]

But as an analogy this might serve to demonstrate the emergence of "consciousness" from specific biological neural network patterns. Is a slime mold conscious?

Can Slime Mould Solve Mazes? | Earth Lab

 

[Write4U]

But in furtherance of the proposition that "consciousness" involves quantum functions.

How Quantum Biology Might Explain Life’s Biggest Questions | Jim Al-Khalili | TED Talks

Looks like physics is beginning to take an interest in biological processes. ORCH OR ?

 

[Write4U]

@ Beerw/Straw, I suspect you might enjoy this video. (18.00)

These are the physics (known science) I used for background on which I based my interest and OP question in the world of quantum biology and if this might be instrumental in understanding the concept of "consciousness".

An Introduction to Quantum Biology - with Philip Ball
459,488 views
•Feb 18, 2015
The Royal Institution

What is quantum biology? Philip Ball explains how strange quantum effects take place in the messy world of biology, and how these are behind familiar biological phenomena such as smell, enzymes and bird's migration. Subscribe for regular science videos: http://bit.ly/RiSubscRibe In this guest curated event on quantum biology, Jim Al-Khalili invited Philip Ball to introduce how the mysteries of quantum theory might manifest themselves at the biological level. Here he explains how the baffling yet powerful theory of the baffling yet powerful theory of the subatomic world might play an important role in biological processes.

or as Bohm might say "the Implicate order"

p.s. during this lecture I visualized the extraordinary olfactory abilities of Bloodhounds.
p.p.s. note the reference to Hameroff's work (31:51)

 

[Write4U]

Can biological quantum tunneling be regulated by a matrix of the microtubule network?

MT are identically functioning dynamical biological constructs, able to process electrochemical information necessary for homeostasis in all living Eukaryotic organisms.

A matrix of a few trillion interconnected dynamical microtubular processors gives this biological pattern a formidable potential as a consistent biological computational complex, including a naturally emergent greater awareness and understanding of personal sensory experiential reactions.
Self-awareness = consciousness

 

[Write4U]

A little visual of microtubule assisted "mitosis"

Note the fractal function which eventually build complex bio-chemical patterns.

 

[Write4U]

The Origins of the Building Blocks of Life:
Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by paddoboy, Mar 16, 2020.

I happen to revisit this thread and found something interesting.

Scientists have discovered the origins of the building blocks of life
by Rutgers University

Proteins are chains of amino acids and a chain's 3-D path in space is called a fold. Ferredoxins are metals found in modern proteins and shuttle electrons around cells to promote metabolism. Electrons flow through solids, liquids and gases and power living systems, and the same electrical force must be present in any other planetary system with a chance to support life.

There is evidence the two folds may have shared a common ancestor and, if true, the ancestor may have been the first metabolic enzyme of life.

https://phys.org/news/2020-03-scientists-blocks-life.html

It just occurred to me that microtubules might well be the naturally occurring fundamental self-assembling protein patterns which process and shuttle the electro chemical messages in living systems.

We know these structures are ancient and may even show similar structures in Archaea (prokaryota)

 

[Write4U]

And this piqued my interest

Actin–microtubule crosstalk in cell biology

• Marileen Dogterom &
• Gijsje H. Koenderink
• Published: 15 October 2018

Abstract

The cytoskeleton and its components — actin, microtubules and intermediate filaments — have been studied for decades, and multiple roles of the individual cytoskeletal substructures are now well established.
However, in recent years it has become apparent that the three cytoskeletal elements also engage in extensive crosstalk that is important for core biological processes.

Actin–microtubule crosstalk is particularly important for the regulation of cell shape and polarity during cell migration and division and the establishment of neuronal and epithelial cell shape and function. This crosstalk engages different cytoskeletal regulators and encompasses various physical interactions, such as crosslinking, anchoring and mechanical support.

Thus, the cytoskeleton should be considered not as a collection of individual parts but rather as a unified system in which subcomponents co-regulate each other to exert their functions in a precise and highly adaptable manner

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41580-018-0067-1

 

[Write4U]

Meet the electric life forms that live on pure energy

Unlike any other life on Earth, these extraordinary bacteria use energy in its purest form – they eat and breathe electrons – and they are everywhere

Stick an electrode in the ground, pump electrons down it, and they will come: living cells that eat electricity. We have known bacteria to survive on a variety of energy sources, but none as weird as this. Think of Frankenstein’s monster, brought to life by galvanic energy, except these “electric bacteria” are very real and are popping up all over the place.

Unlike any other living thing on Earth, electric bacteria use energy in its purest form – naked electricity in the shape of electrons harvested from rocks and metals. We already knew about two types, Shewanella and Geobacter. Now, biologists are showing that they can entice many more out of rocks and marine mud by tempting them with a bit of electrical juice. Experiments growing bacteria on battery electrodes demonstrate that these novel, mind-boggling forms of life are essentially eating and excreting electricity.

That should not come as a complete surprise, says Kenneth Nealson at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. We know that life, when you boil it right down, is a flow of electrons: “You eat sugars that have excess electrons, and you breathe in oxygen that willingly takes them.” Our cells break down the sugars, and the electrons flow through them in a complex set of chemical reactions until they are passed on to electron-hungry oxygen.

Flexible biocables

It’s more than just a bit of fun. Early work shows that such cables conduct electricity about as well as the wires that connect your toaster to the mains. That could open up interesting research avenues involving flexible, lab-grown biocables.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25894-meet-the-electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy/

Microtubules?

 

[exchemist]

Meet the electric life forms that live on pure energy Flexible biocables https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25894-meet-the-electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy/

Microtubules?

"Pure energy" is not science. It is Star Trek. Energy is not "stuff". You can't have a jug of energy. Energy is a property of a physical system.

The headline in the article is wrong, as in fact the subsequent content makes clear.

 

[billvon]

I don't know how you can possible arrive at that ridiculous and completely false conclusion.

Exactly. Your claims about microtubules are ridiculous, and you reach completely false conclusions about them. Glad you are seeing the light.

 

[Write4U]

↑ W4U said; Meet the electric life forms that live on pure energy Flexible biocables
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25894-meet-the-electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy/
Microtubules?

exchemist said; Pure energy" is not science. It is Star Trek. Energy is not "stuff". You can't have a jug of energy. Energy is a property of a physical system.

Apparently you can.
Tell me, an organism that eats electrons, what would you call that form of energy? Electricity?

 

[DaveC426913]

"Pure energy" is not science. It is Star Trek. Energy is not "stuff". You can't have a jug of energy. Energy is a property of a physical system.

The headline in the article is wrong, as in fact the subsequent content makes clear.

Indeed. If one reads up on these bacteria in more science-oriented sources, one sees that they utilize chemistry such as iron oxide and oxidation. Being chemical in nature, of course these mechanisms involve transfer of electrons.

But that doesn't catch the eye of pop-sci sparkly-chasers as much as "Frankenstein’s monster, brought to life by galvanic energy".