Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[billvon]

What do you mean by Deep Neural Networks? Are you talking about AI?

No. Are you really expecting to be taken seriously when you don't understand the basics of what you are talking about?

Our brains are neural networks. We've understood that for over 100 years. Humans have about 100 billion neurons, and they form the basis of our intelligence. Each one is a very simple cell. It only does one of two things - it fires or it doesn't fire. Sometimes it fires quickly. Sometimes it fires slowly. Sometimes it doesn't fire at all. It 'decides' how to fire via simple algorithms - if nearby neurons fire and they are close enough, or they fire often enough, then the neuron fires.

Decades ago researchers built neural networks in hardware. The early ones were single layer. They could be trained to recognize words, identify faces and recognize objects in digital pictures. This, for the first time, enabled machine learning - a system that could learn to do things without being programmed to do so. A network was merely "shown" a picture and "rewarded" when it got the right answer. After enough iterations, the neural network could recognize certain pictures/faces/orientations - without ever being programmed to do so.

More recently engineers have built deep neural networks - neural networks that have several layers, like our brain does. These can also be trained, but they are far more capable. For example, they can recognize faces in any orientation. They can tell races and sexes apart. They drive Teslas, they fly airplanes and they talk back to you when you ask your Alexa a question. Engineers and scientists have been using the brain for a model and have been emulating parts of it (like the visual cortex.) The more biologists learn about our connectome, the more neural network scientists modify their networks to run more like human brains do.

AI is any machine intelligence, from a thermostat to adaptive cruise control to a smart watch. Neural networks are a specific implementation of compute which can be used for AI. Deep networks are multilayer neural networks that are being based more and more often on the human brain.

All Biological Neural networks consist of microtubules, intermediate filaments and microfilaments. That's what I have been telling you all along. Why are you unable to process that?

?? Are you blind? I did process it and have answered you several times about it. Neurons contain microtubules. They also contain sodium, and mitochondria, and DNA, and endoplasmic reticuli, and ATP, and a cell membrane. Take away ANY of those things and the neuron stops working. Thus all are equally important for consciousness.

The common thread here is that it is the NEURON - the fundamental atomic element of any neural network - that allows for learning and for that emergent property we call consciousness. If you could replace a neuron's microtubules, sodium, nucleus or mitochondria with something that does the same thing, then you'd still be conscious. If you could replace neurons entirely with a silicon based system (that functions the same way) then again you'd still be conscious. It is the NEURON, not microtubules (or any other fragment of a neuron) that allows consciousness.

Here is talk about deep neural function of microtubules.

You should stop posting stuff you don't understand.

 

[Write4U]

No. Are you really expecting to be taken seriously when you don't understand the basics of what you are talking about?

Then you better look up the definition and use of the term "deep neural network".

Our brains are neural networks. We've understood that for over 100 years. Humans have about 100 billion neurons, and they form the basis of our intelligence. Each one is a very simple cell. It only does one of two things - it fires or it doesn't fire. Sometimes it fires quickly. Sometimes it fires slowly. Sometimes it doesn't fire at all. It 'decides' how to fire via simple algorithms - if nearby neurons fire and they are close enough, or they fire often enough, then the neuron fires.

Wrong, cells do not fire anything. It's the trillions of microtubule organelles inside the neurons that use the algorithms for processessing ALL the sensory information. They are the highways of neural information transmission.

The synapses (polar ends of microtubules) do fire and have short term memory, but microtubule pyramids allow for long term storage of information memory. This is all "hard fact". LOOK IT UP OR READ MY LINKS.

I don't make this stuff up. This is current evolving science of the "hard problem of consciousness".

 

[Write4U]

More recently engineers have built deep neural networks - neural networks that have several layers, like our brain does. These can also be trained, but they are far more capable. For example, they can recognize faces in any orientation. They can tell races and sexes apart. They drive Teslas, they fly airplanes and they talk back to you when you ask your Alexa a question. Engineers and scientists have been using the brain for a model and have been emulating parts of it (like the visual cortex.) The more biologists learn about our connectome, the more neural network scientists modify their networks to run more like human brains do.

Right, with engineers you mean Artificial Intelligence engineers, no? And as you just stated, the human brain and neural network is becoming the model for AI. That's where the term "deep neural network" copmes from. It's a technical term in computer design.

 

[Write4U]

?? Are you blind? I did process it and have answered you several times about it. Neurons contain microtubules. They also contain sodium, and mitochondria, and DNA, and endoplasmic reticuli, and ATP, and a cell membrane. Take away ANY of those things and the neuron stops working. Thus all are equally important for consciousness.

No, they process electro-chemical information. Microtubules contain two molecules, a "tubulin dimer arranged in dipolar coil wich allows two way traffic of electro-chemical values.
You are ignoring the difference between processor an information being processed.

Its like saying a computer is not a computer unless it has data flowing through its network. Microtubules are the biological equivalent of the copper wires in shielded transmission wires and switches in computer networks.

You are not looking "deep enough" inside the neuron.

 

[Write4U]

The common thread here is that it is the NEURON - the fundamental atomic element of any neural network - that allows for learning and for that emergent property we call consciousness. If you could replace a neuron's microtubules, sodium, nucleus or mitochondria with something that does the same thing, then you'd still be conscious. If you could replace neurons entirely with a silicon based system (that functions the same way) then again you'd still be conscious. It is the NEURON, not microtubules (or any other fragment of a neuron) that allows consciousness.

A neuron could not form without microtubules. MT are responsible for aligning all organelles in a cell.

Microtubules Are Essential for Mitochondrial Dynamics–Fission, Fusion, and Motility–in Dictyostelium discoideum

Abstract
Mitochondrial function is dependent upon mitochondrial structure which is in turn dependent upon mitochondrial dynamics, including fission, fusion, and motility. Here we examined the relationship between mitochondrial dynamics and the cytoskeleton in Dictyostelium discoideum.

Using time-lapse analysis, we quantified mitochondrial fission, fusion, and motility in the presence of cytoskeleton disrupting pharmaceuticals and the absence of the potential mitochondria-cytoskeleton linker protein, CluA.

Our results indicate that microtubules are essential for mitochondrial movement, as well as fission and fusion; actin plays a less significant role, perhaps selecting the mitochondria for transport. We also suggest that CluA is not a linker protein but plays an unidentified role in mitochondrial fission and fusion.

The significance of our work is to gain further insight into the role the cytoskeleton plays in mitochondrial dynamics and function. By better understanding these processes we can better appreciate the underlying mitochondrial contributions to many neurological disorders characterized by altered mitochondrial dynamics, structure, and/or function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4801864/

And as you know, the MTs make up the cytoskeleton.

And how does it do that? At atomic scale or at macro-quantum scale? What is the CM (consciousness mechanism) that allows the brain to make a best guess of the sensory input and compare it to the stored memories in the brain and evolve an ability to mentally visualize what the senses are observing.

 

[Write4U]

billvon said; The common thread here is that it is the NEURON - the fundamental atomic element of any neural network

I agree and I'm happy to see that you at least have included the term atomic element in the description of any neural network.

 

[exchemist]

Then you better look up the definition and use of the term "deep neural network".

Wrong, cells do not fire anything. It's the trillions of microtubule organelles inside the neurons that use the algorithms for processessing ALL the sensory information. They are the highways of neural information transmission.

The synapses (polar ends of microtubules) do fire and have short term memory, but microtubule pyramids allow for long term storage of information memory. This is all "hard fact". LOOK IT UP OR READ MY LINKS.

I don't make this stuff up. This is current evolving science of the "hard problem of consciousness".

Bilge. You have made it all up.

In an almost 1400 post thread, you have not produced ANY evidence that microtubules "use the algorithms" for processing any, let alone all information, sensory or otherwise.

Billvon is obviously quite right about this. What he says about neural networks makes complete sense and is in line with the literature.

Since microtubules are present in all cells, whether neurons or not, their presence in neurons is not evidence of any information processing role.

As for saying neurons don't "fire anything", nobody has suggested they do. But they fire*. This seems to be another instance of your confusing of the meanings of words, one of your hallmarks. Whether it is mental illness, or a trollish trick to change meanings so that you can contradict something nobody has said, it is not easy to determine. But it is bloody annoying.


*I quote Wiki ( from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuron ):-
Discharge patterns[edit]
Neurons have intrinsic electroresponsive properties like intrinsic transmembrane voltage oscillatory patterns.[17] So neurons can be classified according to their electrophysiologicalcharacteristics:

• Tonic or regular spiking. Some neurons are typically constantly (tonically) active, typically firing at a constant frequency. Example: interneurons in neurostriatum.
• Phasic or bursting. Neurons that fire in bursts are called phasic.
• Fast spiking. Some neurons are notable for their high firing rates, for example some types of cortical inhibitory interneurons, cells in globus pallidus, retinal ganglion cells.[18][19]

 

[Write4U]

As everyone stipulates that consciousness is a “hard fact”. There must be an organic mechanism that makes this hard fact possible…

And if there is , we should be able to analyze it and discover the actual mechanisms of consciousness, as we did with the hard question of abiogenesis.

 

[exchemist]

billvon said; The common thread here is that it is the NEURON - the fundamental atomic element of any neural network

I agree and I'm happy to see that you at least have included the term atomic element in the description of any neural network.

What?

What have atomic elements got to do with anything here, apart from being the constituents of the molecules that make up living things?

 

[exchemist]

As everyone stipulates that consciousness is a “hard fact”. There must be an organic mechanism that makes this hard fact possible…

And if there is , we should be able to analyze it and discover the actual mechanisms of consciousness, as we did with the hard question of abiogenesis.

We haven't discovered the actual mechanism of abiogenesis.

Almost everything you say is now rubbish.

 

[Write4U]

p.s. for those who still think abiogenesis is a mystery

From Press Release: “One of the stunning conceptual advances is that natural selection actually changes the potential for higher levels of complexity to arise, in a non-random fashion. There is more to natural selection than accumulation of incremental, random mutations. Each evolutionary innovation lays the groundwork for more complex innovations to emerge.”

https://rethinkingevolution.com/

 

[exchemist]

p.s. for those who still think abiogenesis is a mystery


https://rethinkingevolution.com/

This book, by a home tutor, is not about abiogenesis.

It does however make doubtless gratifying use of the term "potential".

 

[Write4U]

An accurate representation of the Mechanics of living organisms.

Question: do we choose to be alive?
Answer: No, we are alive because of the dynamic potentials of bio-chemistry regardless of our wishes, desires. or beliefs. Being alive is a hard fact and it was no divinely ordained miracle. It was an evolutionary abiogenetic process . Any missing "intermediates" are irrelevant to the expressed fact that life can emerge from dynamic chemistry.

Scientists who cite missing intermediate information as casting doubt on the concept of abiogenesis is no more valid than theists arguing that there are missing intermediate links in the evolution of species and that therefore evolution is flawed.
But those arguments do not invalidate abiogenesis or Darwinian evolution.

 

[billvon]

Wrong, cells do not fire anything.

Neurons fire. It's how they work. They fire (depolarize) and transfer that activity to other neurons.

It's the trillions of microtubule organelles inside the neurons

that use the algorithms for processessing ALL the sensory information.

Nope. Sorry. You're nuts.

The synapses (polar ends of microtubules) do fire and have short term memory,

The entire neuron fires - it's all or nothing. The synapses are the junctions to other neurons.

I don't make this stuff up.

Yes, you really did. (or are gullible enough to fall for someone else's woo.)

 

[billvon]

What have atomic elements got to do with anything here, apart from being the constituents of the molecules that make up living things?

"Atomic" meaning the smallest indivisible components of a structure that still have a definable function. In brains, it is the neuron. In computer science, it is a set of operations that cannot be interrupted or divided.

 

[Write4U]

Neurons fire. It's how they work. They fire (depolarize) and transfer that activity to other neurons.

A Neuron is a cell with extended shielded biological cables (axons) which protects the function of microtubules that make up the actual transport mechanism.

An axon is one of two types of cytoplasmic protrusions from the cell body of a neuron; the other type is a dendrite. Axons are distinguished from dendrites by several features, including shape (dendrites often taper while axons usually maintain a constant radius), length (dendrites are restricted to a small region around the cell body while axons can be much longer), and function (dendrites receive signals whereas axons transmit them).

Some types of neurons have no axon and transmit signals from their dendrites. In some species, axons can emanate from dendrites known as axon-carrying dendrites.

No neuron ever has more than one axon; however in invertebrates such as insects or leeches the axon sometimes consists of several regions that function more or less independently of each other

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axon

That's like saying a shielded electric cable fires electrons, while it is the copper wires inside the electric cable that actually transport and distribute electrons.

So it is with neurons, the axons that connect the neurons are shielded cables that do not fire anything but utilize the microtubules within as the highways that actually transport and distribute electro-chemical information. It is the MT terminals (synapses) that do the firing.

The Microtubule Cytoskeleton Acts as a Key Downstream Effector of Neurotransmitter Signaling
John Gardiner1, Robyn Overall, Jan Marc
Abstract

Microtubules are well known to play a key role in the trafficking of neurotransmitters to the synapse. However, less attention has been paid to their role as downstream effectors of neurotransmitter signaling in the target neuron. Here, we show that neurotransmitter-based signaling to the microtubule cytoskeleton regulates downstream microtubule function through several mechanisms.

These include tubulin posttranslational modification, binding of microtubule-associated proteins, release of microtubule-interacting second messenger molecules, and regulation of tubulin expression levels. We review the evidence for neurotransmitter regulation of the microtubule cytoskeleton, focusing on the neurotransmitters serotonin, melatonin, dopamine, glutamate, glycine, and acetylcholine.

Some evidence suggests that microtubules may even play a more direct role in propagating action potentials through conductance of electric current. In turn, there is evidence for the regulation of neurotransmission by the microtubule cytoskeleton.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20687109/

 

[exchemist]

An accurate representation of the Mechanics of living organisms.

[woo snipped]

Scientists who cite missing intermediate information as casting doubt on the concept of abiogenesis is no more valid than theists arguing that there are missing intermediate links in the evolution of species and that therefore evolution is flawed.
But those arguments do not invalidate abiogenesis or Darwinian evolution.

No scientists do that. This is more rubbish.

 

[billvon]

A Neuron is a cell with extended shielded biological cables (axons) which protects the function of microtubules that make up the actual transport mechanism.

Nope. You have that exactly backwards. Microtubules are one of a great many components that allow a cell to function at all. One of those types of cells is a neuron.

That's like saying a shielded electric cable fires electrons, while it is the copper wires inside the electric cable that actually transport and distribute electrons.

A copper wire alone will indeed transport an electrical signal. A wire made up purely of microtubules will not.

So it is with neurons, the axons that connect the neurons are shielded cables that do not fire anything

Neurons fire. Period. No matter how much nonsense you post.

 

[Write4U]

Nope. You have that exactly backwards. Microtubules are one of a great many components that allow a cell to function at all. One of those types of cells is a neuron.

Microtubules don't need neurons to perform functions. Neurons do need microtubules to function.

Microtubules are small tubes formed by thirteen filamentous strands. Each filament is composed of a chain of protein called tubulin. Microtubules in a neuron are used to transport substances to different parts of the cell. For example, neurotransmitters are made in the cell body close to the nucleus, but need to travel long distances to the end of axons where they will be used for synaptic transmission. Microtubules are the route via which these essential molecules are transported from the site of synthesis to where they are needed.

Advanced

Microtubules, neurofilaments, and microfilaments compose the cytoskeletal elements of a neuron.

The earliest accounts of these cellular structures included the writing of not only Ramon y Cajal, the neuroanatomist, but also Freud and Alzheimer in their studies of cellular motility and tubules.

Very recent molecular research has expanded our understanding of these elements of cell architecture, motility, and shape (Nixon, 1998). Neurons appear to differ in the properties of their cytoskeleton that may reflect functional characteristics, including susceptibility to injury and ability to repair following injury.

Cytoskeletal elements are synthesized in the cell body of a neuron, but delivered throughout the length of the neuron's axon (which composes approximately 99% of the neuron's structure) where they form large molecular assemblies or matrices. Until recently it was believed that the cytoskeletal structure was fairly homogeneous throughout the length of the axon.

More recent evidence, however, indicates otherwise. For example, in mammalian peripheral neurons neurofilament protein content decreases almost 2-fold distally (away from the cell body), while microtubule content increases moving away from the cell body.

Neurofilaments collect locally in regions of myelination in response to signals emanating from the oligodendrocyte. The neurofilament also increases the caliber of the axon underlying myelinated segments of normal neurons.

https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/1/microtubules.shtml

A copper wire alone will indeed transport an electrical signal. A wire made up purely of microtubules will not.

Yes it will. See above. Synapses are the polar charged microtubular terminals. It is the synapses that fire.

Neurons fire. Period. No matter how much nonsense you post.

In a general sense, yes. just as a sheated electrical wire will transport electricity. But microtubules inside the axons are the biological equivalent of the copper wire in an electric circuit.

neuron's axon, which composes approximately 99% of the neuron's structure

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-neuron-2794890#synapse-communication

See, there is a real problem with the various scientific inconsistencies of identifying pertinent parts of the neural network. When we look at representation of a cell and its contents, we seldom see the multitude of microtubules, which actualy make up the cell's cytoskeleton and

Example;
a) Axons are the equivalent to a sheathed (insulated) electric wire. The axon's myelin sheath is the equivalent of the rubber sheath of an electrical wire. The microtubule is the biological equivalent to the copper wire.
b) Microtubules are part of the cytoskeleton, a structural network within the cell's cytoplasm. The roles of the microtubule cytoskeleton include mechanical support, organization of the cytoplasm, transport, motility and chromosome segregation. ... In these cells, the microtubules play important roles in cell migration.
c) The neurofibrils (see below) are just another term for microtubules.
d) Synapses are seldom depicted as the polarized microtubule terminals
(elsewhere I have posted some pics of synapses showing their physical connection to microtubules).

neurofibril

n. a fine fiber found in the cytoplasm of a neuron. It is composed of microscopic protein filaments and microtubules. Abnormal formation of neurofibrils leads to the development of neurofibrillary tangles, which are characteristic of Alzheimer’s disease. Also called neural fibril.

https://dictionary.apa.org/neurofibril

 

[billvon]

Microtubules don't need neurons to perform functions. Neurons do need microtubules to function.

So a neuron shaped bag of microtubules can replace a neuron? Again - you are nuts.