Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

addendum;

For example, in mammalian peripheral neurons neurofilament protein content decreases almost 2-fold distally (away from the cell body), while microtubule content increases moving away from the cell body

https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/1/microtubules.shtml

Neurofilaments (NF)

are classed as type IV intermediate filaments found in the cytoplasm of neurons. They are protein polymers measuring 10 nm in diameter and many micrometers in length.[1] Together with microtubules (~25 nm) and microfilaments (7 nm), they form the neuronal cytoskeleton. They are believed to function primarily to provide structural support for axons and to regulate axon diameter, which influences nerve conduction velocity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofilament

 

[Write4U]

So a neuron shaped bag of microtubules can replace a neuron? Again - you are nuts.

Why can't you just ask a simple question without needing to gratuitously add an ad hominem?

And you are still wrong. It's the microtubules (cytoskeleton) that shape the neurons.
Without microtubules you would be an indistinct bag of cells, unable to even perform cell division. It's the microtubules that keep you standing upright !

When you look at a representation of a cell, microtubules are never shown because they would obscure all other organelles inside a cell. The cytoplasm inside a cell is filled with thousands of microtubules.

I have shown electron microscope pictures showing the incredible fractal microtubular structures inside cell cytoplasm. The microtubular branching is so dense, it obscures all other organelles inhabiting the cell.

And this is what they can do;

 

[billvon]

And you are still wrong. It's the microtubules (cytoskeleton) that shape the neuron.
Without microtubules you would be a bag of cells, unable to even perform cell division. It's the microtubules that keep you standing upright !

Do they whiten your teeth and freshen your breath, too?

 

[Write4U]

Do they whiten your teeth and freshen your breath, too?

Watch the video of electron microscopic pictures of the dynamic role microtubules and stuctures play in the survival of the organism at nano scales. It's truly awesome to see such dynamic survival mechanisms at that normally "unseen" level of living systems, all using microtubules for "motility" and thus giving the organism a survival advantage.

 

[billvon]

Watch the video of electron microscopic pictures of the dynamic role microtubules and stuctures play in the survival of the organism at nano scales. It's truly awesome to see such dynamic survival mechanisms at that normally "unseen" level of living systems, all using microtubules for "motility" and thus giving the organism a survival advantage.

And they give you super strength! And are normally invisible! Truly there is nothing that microtubules cannot do for you. All hail the mighty microtubule!

 

[Yazata]

And you are still wrong. It's the microtubules (cytoskeleton) that shape the neurons.
Without microtubules you would be an indistinct bag of cells, unable to even perform cell division. It's the microtubules that keep you standing upright !

I thought that our bones took care of that.

You seem to me to be obsessed with microtubules, W4U.

One could as easily argue that proteins are the secret of life, because so many functional bit of cells are made of proteins. Proteins work like gritty little nanomachines, serving as enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions, as structural components, as little gates and pumps on the cell membrane, as identity markers for immune reactions, and many other functions. Even microtubules are made of proteins. Coding for proteins is what genes are primarily about.

When you look at a representation of a cell, microtubules are never shown because they would obscure all other organelles inside a cell. The cytoplasm inside a cell is filled with thousands of microtubules.

If you look a a representation of a cell, there's usually only a handful (often just one) of any organelle. That's for simplicity sake.

OK W4U. Microtubules are cool. They are more interesting than I gave them credit for being, prior to meeting you.

But they aren't the secret of life itself. And I remain damnably unconvinced that they have anything to do with consciousness, apart from their playing an active role in neurons.

 

[Write4U]

And yet another interestig perspective of neural information procesing and transmission.

Microtubule Motor Proteins (good stuff...)

 

[Write4U]

I thought that our bones took care of that.
OK W4U. Microtubules are cool. They are more interesting than I gave them credit for being, prior to meeting you.

But they aren't the secret of life itself. And I remain damnably unconvinced that they have anything to do with consciousness, apart from their playing an active role in neurons.

Consciousness may well be an evolved self-referential awarenessness of the values and meaning of transmitted electro-chemical sensory information.

As Anil Seth proposes : brains make "best guesses" about the information it receives based on comparison with stored cognitive memories. But those are subjective experiences . And not always correct.]
But the network can also learn, by storing new information based on "experience". Eventually this self-referential processing aspect of electro-chemical afferent experience and efferent physical responses, HAS to lead to ever greater sophistication and refinement for an emergent ability for non-survival oriented abstract concepts, such as "what if " questions and what is possible based on the know "hard facts" consciousness is just another emergent mathematical aspect of biological sensory evolution" ........

 

[Write4U]

I thought that our bones took care of that

Guess what system regulates the formation of bone? Microtubules....

You seem to me to be obsessed with microtubules, W4U.

You bet. They are fundamental dipolar structures dynamically self-assembled from a dimer of two simple tubulins . They seem to function as a electro-chemical control mechanism in one form or another in all living Eukariotic organisms. This common denominater and the emergent relative levels of "awareness' the more complex this neural network becomes.

I am not arguing against the term "neural network". I also have no objection to the term "electrical network" . But that doesn't mean much unless you can demonstrate what it does and how it does it, the active components, such as the dynamically self-assembling microtubular "neural highways".

MT, a perfectly adapted nano scale dipolar coil, a completely naturally occurring biological self-assembling pattern that is potentially ideally suited to the reception and transmission of electro-chemical information, the "aware" experience of that information is our state of consciosness, no?

Worth looking into?

 

[Write4U]

All hail the mighty microtubule!

Hail the dynamic biological growth mechanics and consistency of data processing, that allowed for all other mental potentials to become expressed "in time".

It meets the requirement of a fundamental, effectively simple and constant dynamically controllable mathematical biological pattern suitable for "self-referential information transmission", and by extension the ability for evolved sef-aware experiencing of this process.

If we can just prove that one hard fact then all other questions, including possible medical applications will be answered as well. This is as big as religion..
Hail science!...

 

[Write4U]

OK W4U. Microtubules are cool. They are more interesting than I gave them credit for being, prior to meeting you.

Thank you Yazata, for those generous words. I'm doing the best I can in promoting research in this area. The implications may be staggering in scope.

Someboy should make a microtubule smiley...hehe.

 

[Write4U]

billvon said; The common thread here is that it is the NEURON - the fundamental atomic element of any neural network

What?
What have atomic elements got to do with anything here, apart from being the constituents of the molecules that make up living things?

OK, billvon, what do you have to say about that?

 

[Write4U]

No scientists do that. This is more rubbish.

You do.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

OK, billvon, what do you have to say about that?

What's more conscious, a hydrogen atom or a water molecule?

:edit: Maybe a hydrogen atom or oxygen one?

 

[exchemist]

You do.

More nonsense.

 

[billvon]

OK, billvon, what do you have to say about that?

Perhaps you might read my previous reply to that question. (Or not; up to you.)

 

[Write4U]

W4U said; As to the "neural firing"

Bilge. You have made it all up.

Billvon is obviously quite right about this. What he says about neural networks makes complete sense and is in line with the literature.

You just questioned his use of the term "atomic" Are you going to let him off the hook and transfer that comment as originating from me and calling it "bilge".
Billvon, you realize exchemist unwittingly accused you of spouting "bilge". What do you have to say about that?

Since microtubules are present in all cells, whether neurons or not, their presence in neurons is not evidence of any information processing role.

Yes it does. If microtubules are not present there is no information processing. Your logic is atrocious.

As for saying neurons don't "fire anything", nobody has suggested they do. But they fire*. This seems to be another instance of your confusing of the meanings of words, one of your hallmarks. Whether it is mental illness, or a trollish trick to change meanings so that you can contradict something nobody has said, it is not easy to determine. But it is bloody annoying.

You're just getting caught up in your own confusion.

*I quote Wiki ( from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuron ):-
Discharge patterns[edit]
Neurons have intrinsic electroresponsive properties like intrinsic transmembrane voltage oscillatory patterns.[17] So neurons can be classified according to their electrophysiologicalcharacteristics:

• Tonic or regular spiking. Some neurons are typically constantly (tonically) active, typically firing at a constant frequency. Example: interneurons in neurostriatum.
• Phasic or bursting. Neurons that fire in bursts are called phasic.
• Fast spiking. Some neurons are notable for their high firing rates, for example some types of cortical inhibitory interneurons, cells in globus pallidus, retinal ganglion cells.[18][19]

You're completely missing the point. Everything above is correct except it neglects to stipulate that the part of the neuron that does the actual work are the microtubules inside the neuron. MTs perform the transmission of "afferent" and "efferent" electrochemical signals. They are like the copper wires in an electrical cable. We also say electrical cables transmit and fire electrical impulses. But the part of the electrical cable that does the work is the copper wire. And so it is with microtubules inside the neuronal cell body and axons and synapses.

Synapses are fed and fire information received from microtubules!!!! Do you see the analogy to electric wires within electric cables and electric connectors?

Actin microfilaments are the main cytoskeletal
components present at both presynaptic and postsynaptic terminals in glutamatergic synapses. However, in the last few years it has been demonstrated that microtubules (MTs) transiently invade dendritic spines, promoting their maturation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations
Abstract

Microtubules (MTs) are long cylindrical structures of the cytoskeleton that control cell division, intracellular transport, and the shape of cells. MTs also form bundles, which are particularly prominent in neurons, where they help define axons and dendrites.

MTs are bio-electrochemical transistors that form nonlinear electrical transmission lines. However, the electrical properties of most MT structures remain largely unknown. Here we show that bundles of brain MTs spontaneously generate electrical oscillations and bursts of electrical activity similar to action potentials. Under intracellular-like conditions, voltage-clamped MT bundles displayed electrical oscillations with a prominent fundamental frequency at 39 Hz that progressed through various periodic regimes.

The electrical oscillations represented, in average, a 258% change in the ionic conductance of the MT structures. Interestingly, voltage-clamped membrane-permeabilized neurites of cultured mouse hippocampal neurons were also capable of both, generating electrical oscillations, and conducting the electrical signals along the length of the structure.

Our findings indicate that electrical oscillations are an intrinsic property of brain MT bundles, which may have important implications in the control of various neuronal functions, including the gating and regulation of cytoskeleton-regulated excitable ion channels and electrical activity that may aid and extend to higher brain functions such as memory and consciousness.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2

I suggest to familiarize yourself with microtubules at a deeper level. The more you learn about this little coil, the more sense it makes that MTs have to be the "workhorses" of biological cells.
The fact that Microtubule motor-processors are a common denominator of all Eukaryotic organisms makes it the only (remaining) candidate for any consideration about consciousness.

 

[Write4U]

The Presynaptic Microtubule Cytoskeleton in Physiological and Pathological Conditions: Lessons from Drosophila Fragile X Syndrome and Hereditary Spastic Paraplegias

Abstract
The capacity of the nervous system to generate neuronal networks relies on the establishment and maintenance of synaptic contacts. Synapses are composed of functionally different presynaptic and postsynaptic compartments. An appropriate synaptic architecture is required to provide the structural basis that supports synaptic transmission, a process involving changes in cytoskeletal dynamics. Actin microfilaments are the main cytoskeletal components present at both presynaptic and postsynaptic terminals in glutamatergic synapses.
However, in the last few years it has been demonstrated that microtubules (MTs) transiently invade dendritic spines, promoting their maturation. Nevertheless, the presence and functions of MTs at the presynaptic site are still a matter of debate. Early electron microscopy (EM) studies revealed that MTs are present in the presynaptic terminals of the central nervous system (CNS) where they interact with synaptic vesicles (SVs) and reach the active zone. These observations have been reproduced by several EM protocols; however, there is empirical heterogeneity in detecting presynaptic MTs, since they appear to be both labile and unstable. Moreover, increasing evidence derived from studies in the fruit fly neuromuscular junction proposes different roles for MTs in regulating presynaptic function in physiological and pathological conditions. In this review, we summarize the main findings that support the presence and roles of MTs at presynaptic terminals, integrating descriptive and biochemical analyses, and studies performed in invertebrate genetic models.

Introduction
Every motor, cognitive, and association function executed by the nervous system relies on the establishment of neuronal networks that involve the generation, maintenance, and pruning of synaptic contacts. The animal nervous system possesses a diverse array of synapses characterized by their structure and chemical nature, but in general terms, a synaptic contact is defined as a junction between a presynaptic neuron and a postsynaptic cell, that can be another neuron, a muscle cell or a gland cell (Jessell and Kandel, 1993).
At the subcellular level, synapses are composed of an axonal presynaptic terminal, that releases neurotransmitters in response to an action potential, and a postsynaptic terminal which receives and integrates the synaptic input (Garner et al., 2000; Südhof, 2012). The highly specialized structure and morphology of pre- and post-synaptic assembly depends on several factors, including cytoskeleton dynamics. Actin microfilaments are the major cytoskeletal component of glutamatergic synapses in mature neurons. In presynaptic terminals, actin regulates synaptic vesicle (SV) pool dynamics, including their mobilization to the active zone, endocytosis, and exocytosis, as well as providing a scaffolding system for the spatial organization of regulatory elements in the nerve terminal (Colicos et al., 2001; Shupliakov et al., 2002; Sankaranarayanan et al., 2003). The actin cytoskeleton is also highly enriched in postsynaptic dendritic spines, where it regulates spinogenesis and the structural plasticity observed in mature neurons in response to activity (Matus et al., 1982; Matus, 2000; Yuste and Bonhoeffer, 2004). In contrast, the presence and function of the synaptic microtubule (MT) cytoskeleton is barely beginning to be understood.

During the last decade, the transient invasion of MTs to a small percentage of dendritic spines in mature neurons in response to synaptic activity has been demonstrated (Hu et al., 2008; Jaworski et al., 2009). MTs entry into dendritic spines promotes their stabilization through the recruitment of the postsynaptic protein-95 (PSD-95; Hu et al., 2011) and the activation of NMDA glutamate receptors (Merriam et al., 2011). These findings set a turning point from the widespread notion that MTs are absent from dendritic spines, a notion based on the technical difficulties of detecting MTs at postsynaptic terminals by electron microscopy (EM; Gray et al., 1982; Landis and Reese, 1983; Fiala et al., 2003), despite the fact that MT had been detected in dendritic shaft by several different techniques (Caceres et al., 1983; Spacek and Harris, 1997; Kaech et al., 2001).

However, the presence and function of MTs at presynaptic terminals are beginning to be understood, supported by evidence derived from studies performed mainly in vertebrate central synapses and in neuromuscular junctions (NMJ) of Drosophila larvae.

In this review, we will summarize the ultrastructural and biochemical data that endorse the notion of a presynaptic MT cytoskeleton in vertebrate synapses, and the MT-dependent regulation of presynaptic structure and physiology at NMJs in Drosophila. Finally, we will address the use of the Drosophila NMJ as a model for the study of several neurodegenerative disorders that underlie MT cytoskeleton-related mechanisms in pathological conditions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4958632/

 

[Write4U]

Perhaps you might read my previous reply to that question. (Or not; up to you.)

I won't waste my time on trivia. I'll leave that up to you.

 

[Write4U]

What's more conscious, a hydrogen atom or a water molecule?
:edit: Maybe a hydrogen atom or oxygen one?

A better question would be is a H2O molecule "wet"?