Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

But I still disagree with Write4U because for anything mathematical to exist the physical must exist first

That is no argument. Are you suggesting consciousness is a physical phenomenon or is it an emergent self-aware experiential emotion.

Can you sell me 3lbs of consciousness?

 

[Write4U]

Highlighted
Physical Patterns , Write4U

3 physical elements (elementary values) arranged in a near infinite array of mathematical patterns.

Crystallization or crystallisation is the (natural or artificial) process by which a solid forms, where the atoms or molecules are highly organized into a structure known as a crystal. Some of the ways by which crystals form are precipitating from a solution, freezing, or more rarely deposition directly from a gas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystallization

 

[river]

That is no argument. Are you suggesting consciousness is a physical phenomenon or is it an emergent self-aware experiential emotion.

Can you sell me 3lbs of consciousness?

The more you know .

Consciousness is about understanding the.....without .

 

[river]

3 physical elements (elementary values) arranged in a near infinite array of mathematical patterns.

What three physical elements ?

 

[Write4U]

The more you know .

I am surprised how few people know anything about consciousness. It's a really old question humans have asked themselves and then apparently shrugged their shoulders with the expression "whatever".....

Consciousness is about understanding the.....without .[/QUOTE] Consciousness is understanding yourself as an autonomous organism and your relationship to the environment. Consciousness always starts with survival skills. Fight or Flight.

This process starts at the cellular level with simple physical reaction to kinetic forces, but has evolved to extraordinary sensory perception and information processing, yielding a best guess (imaginary presentation) of what the senses are observing at various levels of awareness depending on the evolutionary processes imposed by various habitats.

 

[river]

I amsurprise how few people know anything about consciousness. It's a really old question humans have asked themselves and then apparently shrugged their shoulders with the expression "whatever".....

Consciousness is about understanding the.....without .

Consciousness is understanding yourself as an autonomous organism and your relationship to the environment. It always starts with survival skills.

This process starts at the cellular level with simple physical reaction to kinetic forces, but has evolved to extraordinary sensory perception and information processing, yielding a best guess (imaginary presentation) of what the senses are observing at various levels of awareness depending on the evolutionary processes imposed by various habitats.

And the Evolution of the Nervous System .

 

[Write4U]

And the Evolution of the Nervous System .

Absolutely.
It's just that the functional parts of the Nervous (neural) system are the microtubules. Microtubules are like the copper wires in an electrical system, the actual transportation highways of electricity. Without microtubules there is no nervous (neural) system and information processing.

When people say "consciousness emerges from our neural system" they already (unwittingly) acknowledge the role of microtubules even if they have never heard the term microtubule in relation to neurons.

Microtubule-mediated axonal transport. Axonal microtubules are specialised in transmitting vesicles and other cargo via molecular motors. Microtubule organisation and modulation by MAPs (such as tau) also aids transport. Kinesin (left red) performs anterograde transport to axonal terminals. Dynein (right yellow) moves retrogradely towards the cell body. Fast and slow axonal transports drive organelles, vesicles and proteins along the axon. A tight balance of anterograde, bidirectional and retrograde transport is required to avoid either accumulation or depletion of cellular components [40]

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...icrotubules-are-specialised-in_fig2_307898410

Microtubule control of functional architecture in neurons
Highlights;

Regulation of non-centrosomal microtubule organization in neurons.
Role of resilient acetylated microtubules in mechanosensation.
Patterning microtubule tracks to deliver cargo to the right place at the right time.

Neurons are exquisitely polarized cells whose structure and function relies on microtubules. Microtubules in signal-receiving dendrites and signal-sending axons differ in their organization and microtubule-associated proteins.

These differences, coupled with microtubule post-translational modifications, combine to locally regulate intracellular transport, morphology, and function. Recent discoveries provide new insight into the regulation of non-centrosomal microtubule arrays in neurons, the relationship between microtubule
acetylation and mechanosensation, and the spatial patterning of microtubules that regulates motor activity and cargo delivery in axons and dendrites. Together, these new studies bring us closer to understanding how microtubule function is locally tuned to match the specialized tasks associated with signal reception and transmission.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959438818302745

 

[Write4U]

continued.......

Figure 1. Microtubules carry out diverse roles within neurons.
Microtubules regulate cargo trafficking

Microtubules serve a fundamental role as the ‘roads’ that molecular motors traverse to deliver cargo. The unique morphological and functional polarity of neurons pose particular challenges to the accurate and precise delivery of cargos. In addition, axons and dendrites often extend over large territories, requiring molecular motors to sustain transport over significant distances. In humans this is perhaps best highlighted in motor neurons, where cargos originating in the cell body are reliably delivered to specific destinations up to a meter away.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959438818302745

 

[Write4U]

What three physical elements ?

Sorry, that should have read "fundamental elements" instead of "physical".


How bosons fit with other classes of sub atomic particles, hadrons and fermions.

We should add the four fundamental forces. The combination of these fundamental constituents of spacetime interact to form "matter".

In physics, the fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four fundamental interactions known to exist: the gravitational and electromagnetic interactions, which produce significant long-range forces whose effects can be seen directly in everyday life, and the strong and weak interactions, which produce forces at minuscule, subatomic distances and govern nuclear interactions. Some scientists hypothesize that a fifth force might exist, but these hypotheses remain speculative.

Each of the known fundamental interactions can be described mathematically as a field. .....more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

At Planck scale the universe is not a collection of particles. It is a collection of unobservable fields, which interact and combine to form specific sub-atomic patterns which in turn produce atomic patterns which produce observable matter, with specific measurable potentials, such as atomic mass.

p.s. the Higgs Field is proof. It is an unobservable condition, but we were able to mathematically predict the required environmental conditions to produce a Higgs boson from that field. Abra Cadabra!

Microtubules may well have distinct advantage in the race for consciousness, merely by the most fundamental experience of "touch". All the sensory information during an organism's lifetime is touched and experientially processed by microtubules. Evolution may well have provided MT an amplification ability of the neural network signals to the brain, and when there is sufficient informational stimulation the brain says "aaauchhhh", actually a macro-quantum event of emergent self-awareness!?

Did I just describe ORCH OR ?

 

[exchemist]

Well, that's where you are wrong.
By that standard the universe cannot process any information. Are you sure, you know the fundamental function of information processing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_processing

QUOTE

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. (Learn how and when to remove these template messages)
This article needs attention from an expert in Psychology, Philosophy, Computer science or Cognitive science.(February 2010)"

UNQUOTE

In other words, it's cock.

 

[exchemist]

Sorry, that should have read "fundamental elements" instead of "physical".


How bosons fit with other classes of sub atomic particles, hadrons and fermions.

We should add the four fundamental forces. The combination of these fundamental constituents of spacetime interact to form "matter". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

At Planck scale the universe is not a collection of particles. It is a collection of unobservable fields, which interact and combine to form specific sub-atomic patterns which in turn produce atomic patterns which produce observable matter, with specific measurable potentials, such as atomic mass.

p.s. the Higgs Field is proof. It is an unobservable condition, but we were able to mathematically predict the required environmental conditions to produce a Higgs boson from that field. Abra Cadabra!

Microtubules may well have distinct advantage in the race for consciousness, merely by the most fundamental experience of "touch". All the sensory information during an organism's lifetime is touched and experientially processed by microtubules. Evolution may well have provided MT an amplification ability of the neural network signals to the brain, and when there is sufficient informational stimulation the brain says "aaauchhhh", actually a macro-quantum event of emergent self-awareness!?

Did I just describe ORCH OR ?

No.

 

[Write4U]

QUOTE
This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. (Learn how and when to remove these template messages)
This article needs attention from an expert in Psychology, Philosophy, Computer science or Cognitive science.(February 2010)"
UNQUOTE
In other words, it's cock.

No it isn't. It has issues, but that does not invalidate the various definitions the existing definitions that apparently are agreed on.

Are you suggesting that all science which has "issues" is not valid? Doesn't that depend on the issues? Newton's gravity has "issues" . Does that invalidate his theory?

The term "information" has several definitions, depending on context in psychology, or computer sciences, or cognitive science. Maybe there are several more applicable definitions. How can you tell what is needed?

 

[Write4U]

W4U said; Did I just describe ORCH OR ?

exchemist said; No.

Orchestrated Objective Reduction? I think I touched the on thrust of the hypothesis, but it does not need to be that. As long as we can establish that the study of microtubules may give us "hard answers" to the "hard questions", that would be sufficient to warrant further study.

Expression like "no", and "poppy-cock" are in no way constructive or offer "guidance". Can you be more specific? Kinda like being scientific for a change?

 

[Write4U]

Continuing with evidence.

Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations

Abstract,
Microtubules (MTs) are long cylindrical structures of the cytoskeleton that control cell division, intracellular transport, and the shape of cells. MTs also form bundles, which are particularly prominent in neurons, where they help define axons and dendrites. MTs are bio-electrochemical transistors that form nonlinear electrical transmission lines. However, the electrical properties of most MT structures remain largely unknown.

Here we show that bundles of brain MTs spontaneously generate electrical oscillations and bursts of electrical activity similar to action potentials. Under intracellular-like conditions, voltage-clamped MT bundles displayed electrical oscillations with a prominent fundamental frequency at 39 Hz that progressed through various periodic regimes. The electrical oscillations represented, in average, a 258% change in the ionic conductance of the MT structures. Interestingly, voltage-clamped membrane-permeabilized neurites of cultured mouse hippocampal neurons were also capable of both, generating electrical oscillations, and conducting the electrical signals along the length of the structure.

Our findings indicate that electrical oscillations are an intrinsic property of brain MT bundles, which may have important implications in the control of various neuronal functions, including the gating and regulation of cytoskeleton-regulated excitable ion channels and electrical activity that may aid and extend to higher brain functions such as memory and consciousness.

Introduction
MTs are unique components of the cellular cytoskeleton that form a wide variety of intracellular superstructures1. Highly polarized cells such as neurons, for example, present two structurally and functionally distinct domains, namely a single long, thin axon and multiple shorter dendrites that either transmit or receive electrical signals, respectively.

MT stability is at the center of the polarization process of neurons, which is fundamental to their development and plasticity, as well as the development of neurodegenerative diseases. MTs form dense parallel arrays known as bundles in axons and dendrites, which are required for the growth and maintenance of neurites in neurons2,3,4.

The organization of MT bundles in axons and dendrites largely depends on the prevalent type of MT-associated proteins prevalent in them. MAP2, for example is mainly found in dendrites while tau is mainly found in axons3,5. Another important aspect of MT organization and function relies on their remarkable and not as well understood biophysical properties.

MTs are highly charged electrically polarized polymers, where their αβ tubulin heterodimeric units have a high electric dipole moment6, rendering these structures highly sensitive to electric fields both in vitro7,8 and in vivo9. Large uncompensated charge10 present in MTs likely plays an important role in electrostatic interactions implicated in MT-macromolecular complexing11. MTs are thought to generate oscillatory electric fields at expense of elasto-electrical vibrations12, which may explain our findings that electrically-stimulated MTs behave as biological transistors behaving as sophisticated nonlinear transmission lines, capable of supporting the amplification and axial transfer of electrical signals13,14,15,16,17,18. Within the cytoplasm MT-generated variable currents may contribute to the presence and modulation of large intracellular electric fields, which in turn, will help control cell function.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2

 

[exchemist]

No it isn't. It has issues, but that does not invalidate the various definitions the existing definitions that apparently are agreed on.

Are you suggesting that all science which has "issues" is not valid? Doesn't that depend on the issues? Newton's gravity has "issues" . Does that invalidate his theory?

The term "information" has several definitions, depending on context in psychology, or computer sciences, or cognitive science. Maybe there are several more applicable definitions. How can you tell what is needed?

It's cock. For a start, "change" is not a synonym for "processing".

And then, if you start claiming that all physical events and processes "process information", you have destroyed any significance in the term. It becomes meaningless. So, sure microtubules, by that definition, "process information", if you want. But so does everything else. So when you claim that microtubules "process information" you might as well save your breath because you have said nothing interesting or remarkable.

So, as a definition, it is trivial and useless.

Britannica, on the the other hand, has a non-trivial definition:
" Information processing , the acquisition, recording, organization, retrieval, display, and dissemination of information."
This is followed by a long and informative article on the subject: https://www.britannica.com/technology/information-processing#ref61650

 

[exchemist]

Orchestrated Objective Reduction? I think I touched the on thrust of the hypothesis, but it does not need to be that. As long as we can establish that the study of microtubules may give us "hard answers" to the "hard questions", that would be sufficient to warrant further study.

Expression like "no", and "poppy-cock" are in no way constructive or offer "guidance". Can you be more specific? Kinda like being scientific for a change?

Is there kinda like any point in offering you kinda constructive criticism, like? Kinda.

Unlike Orch-OR, what you wrote is not a hypothesis, but a series of random, Brain-of-Pooh musings, culminating in a short burst of quantum woo. Kinda. Like.

 

[Write4U]

So, as a definition, it is trivial and useless.

Britannica, on the the other hand, has a non-trivial definition:
" Information processing , the acquisition, recording, organization, retrieval, display, and dissemination of information."
This is followed by a long and informative article on the subject: https://www.britannica.com/technology/information-processing#ref61650

Yes, kinda like the mathematical process of evolution of the universe and everything in it. The information contained in patterns evolving into more complex patterns. Things, collections of information, have values. All values are processed via mathematical functions. In the the end it is all information. Tegmark proposes Mathematics. Penrose proposes Consciousness begins at quantum. Bohm hypothesized a "Wholeness" (Holonomic brain theory)

Holonomic brain theory

This specific theory of quantum consciousness was developed by neuroscientist Karl Pribram initially in collaboration with physicist David Bohm. It describes human cognition by modeling the brain as a holographic
storage network.[1][2] Pribram suggests these processes involve electric oscillations in the brain's fine-fibered dendritic webs, which are different from the more commonly known action potentials involving axons and synapses.

These oscillations are waves and create wave interference patterns in which memory is encoded naturally, and the waves may be analyzed by a Fourier transform.[3][4][5][6][7] Gabor, Pribram and others noted the similarities between these brain processes and the storage of information in a hologram, which can also be analyzed with a Fourier transform.

In a hologram, any part of the hologram with sufficient size contains the whole of the stored information. In this theory, a piece of a long-term memory is similarly distributed over a dendritic arbor so that each part of the dendritic network contains all the information stored over the entire network.

This model allows for important aspects of human consciousness, including the fast associative memory that allows for connections between different pieces of stored information and the non-locality of memory storage (a specific memory is not stored in a specific location, i.e. a certain cluster of neurons).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory

It all deals with information (relative values, being processed via invariable mathematical functions inherent in the geometry of a spacetime manifold.

If you can describe it, that means you are describing from information you have gathered and nothing else. All things have atomic patterns, all atomic patterns have values, the information of those values is processed via mathematical functions. What is the dispute?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, kinda like the mathematical process of evolution of the universe and everything in it. The information contained in patterns evolving into more complex patterns. Things, collections of information, have values. All values are processed via mathematical functions. In the the end it is all information.

All things have atomic patterns, all atomic patterns have values, the information of those values is processed via mathematical functions

Reporting as more off-topic preaching of a personal religion.

 

[Write4U]

QUOTE="exchemist, post: 3637329, member: 268413"]It's cock. For a start, "change" is not a synonym for "processing".[/QUOTE] Remember "compartmentalization"?

CHANGE IS A PROCESS by Tim Creasey

Although it is the last of the

seven concepts of change management, treating change as a process is a central component of successful change and successful change management. By breaking change down into distinct phases, you can better customize and tailor your approach to ensure that individuals successfully adopt the change to how they work.

The easiest,
most basic approach to understanding change as a process is to break change down into distinct, understandable elements. The three states of change provide a powerful framework: the Current State, the Transition State and the Future State.

https://blog.prosci.com/change-is-a-process

Reporting as more off-topic preaching of a personal religion.

Reporting as false and off-topic ad hominem. Stop interrupting the conversation with off-topic attempts at humor. This thread is not about religion Dave. Please stay with the science or (at minimum) as exchemist reminds me, the English language, which I hope the above will clear up, so that we can return to the three main topic of this thread, you know; "Consciousness", "Quantum Mechanics", and "Microtubules" .Thank you.

 

[exchemist]

QUOTE="exchemist, post: 3637329, member: 268413"]It's cock. For a start, "change" is not a synonym for "processing".Remember "compartmentalization"?

CHANGE IS A PROCESS by Tim Creasey https://blog.prosci.com/change-is-a-process
.

God, you must be desperate, trawling the internet to find something that seems to say "change" and "processing" are synonyms. But actually even what you have found does not say that.

This is about organisational change, in a business. And what he says, about organisational change, is "Change occurs as a process, not as an event. Organizational change does not happen instantaneously because there was an announcement, a kickoff meeting or even a go-live date. Individuals do not change simply because they received an email or attended a training program."

Completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread, as so much that you have posted has also been.

This inability either to distinguish relevance from irrelevance, or to understand the meaning of words, looks increasingly like mental illness.