Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[DaveC426913]

Not one to pile on - but this is indeed the very same thing I've been calling out W4U on for quite some time.

 

[Write4U]

Of course not. Are you that dense as to not understand an example?

IOW, you presented a "what if" (without any basis in fact) question to me?

In case you are, here is the maxim as applied to you:
You: Microtubules process information.
Other: No they don't.

You: But what does "process" mean, really? Can't it mean X, which is vague and confusing enough that I can claim my original statement is correct? And the term "information" has several definitions, depending on context in psychology, or computer sciences, or cognitive science. Maybe there are several more applicable definitions. How can you tell what is needed? How can anyone tell what things mean? And if no one can tell, doesn't that mean that science itself has issues?

This is a false representation of the facts.
a)

You: But what does "process" mean, really?

No, I am telling you what it means. You disagree with me, I do not necessarily disagree with you, but your position is intractable, which leaves no room for compromise and possible concensus.
b) I always accompany my "specifically chosen terms" with context and pertinent relevance, and "links" to "proofs" which explain the precise use of that term for that precise function, but alas, which you refuse to watch so we cannot discuss what was my inspiration for posting from listening and/or reading presentations by experts in their field
c) You refuse to see "fundamental common denominators" in various definitions, not what sets the thing apart, but what it has in common with all the other related terms. i.e. a mathematical self-ordering of extant potentials.

David Bohm's deep insight into a mathematically deterministic future in his "Wholeness and the Implicate Order", a state which exists everywhere at all measurable scales, from Planck to Universal geometry.

The concept of a mathematical universe is the only conceptual interpretive knowledge of a real property of the universe. Whatever it is, it is Mathematical in essence.
We prove that every moment of the day. All of our scientific knowledge is based on the mathematical constancy of Universal laws. We can speak and symbolize that universal language of information sharing at all scales from the very subtle, to gross expressions in reality.

It is reasonable to assume that any chemical or bio-chemical pattern is a result of and responds to universal mathematical laws. Microtubules are a naturally self-forming mathematical bipolar processor and transport system of a variety of relative values and mathematical functions (enzymes, hormones, etc) and deliver exquisite ability in controlling mitosis.
There is nothing that can replace it! If there is, I'd like to know it.

 

[DaveC426913]

It is reasonable to assume that any chemical or bio-chemical pattern is a result of and responds to universal mathematical laws.

No it isn't. There is no evidence to substantiate this notion.

Microtubules are a naturally self-forming mathematical bipolar processor and transport system of a variety of relative values and mathematical functions

Since your notion for microtubules is dependent on your even weaker pseudo-scientific notion of a mathematical universe, then this thread doesn't belong in Alt Theories. I'll report to have it moved to Pseudoscience.

 

[billvon]

(And in case you really are that dense, no, that is not an exact quote either.)

This is a false representation of the facts.

OK then. Glad I put that disclaimer in there, then. Even if you ignored it.

 

[Write4U]

No it isn't. There is no evidence to substantiate this notion.

What notion does not have evidence to substantiate it?

Since your notion for microtubules is dependent on your even weaker pseudo-scientific notion of a mathematical universe, then this thread doesn't belong in Alt Theories. I'll report to have it moved to Pseudoscience.

Where specifically does my notion of microtubules not agree with the source I quoted as the authority on the subject? And where did I say that microtubules are dependent on a mathematical universe. I said that, if a Mathematical Universe, the Microtubular network would make an excellent candidate for such a requirement of information processing at nano scales.

Microtubules are dependent on physics and their function can be mathematically symbolized, just as any other universal constant. MT are essential bi-polar processors in the neural information processing network and the brain is dependent on the dynamic control of homeostasis of the microtubule.

As far as you REPORTING the errant child for his scientific trespasses, go to hell. I don't care where you put it....

As long as you cannot come up with any valid counterfactuals, you have no authority to diss anything I say. Don't tell me that I am wrong, show me where and why I am wrong! I bet you cannot, because you know less about the subject than the people I quote as my sources of "knowledge".
If you are going to play censorship, and I quote a respected source incorrectly, it is up to you to point out the error and why I used it incorrectly. A vehement "NO", or "WRONG", or an exclamation that the "evidence has not been substantiated", does not satisfy the definition of scientific critique. The counter to that argument is that there is also no "known" factuals that make it impossible for the proposed system to evolve.

Where does any of it fail specifically. Don't act like a spiteful child, if you know so much more about this subject, enlighten me.
If you cannot conclusively rule out the concept of a mathematical universe, I would suggest to pay attention to the "knowledgeable" people who have suggested that the universe has an underlying mathematical essence.

 

[DaveC426913]

What notion does not have evidence to substantiate it?

This mathematical universe that runs on values and functions. As you well know.

As long as you cannot come up with any valid counterfactuals, you have no authority to diss anything I say.

False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.

Don't tell me that I am wrong, show me where and why I am wrong!

False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.

Where does any of it fail specifically.

False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.

If you cannot conclusively rule out the concept of a mathematical universe

False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.

You have yet to show how 'a universe that is mathematical and is powered by values and functions' is falsifiable. Since your idea of microtubules is propped up by an unfalsifiable conjecture of yours, it fails the test for a theory, and thus should be moved out of the Alt Theories forum.

Because you have forgotten:

Mod Note
...no, you cannot post whatever you want, nor can you control who posts here.
...
I would suggest you pay particular attention to: E13. Appropriate supporting evidence or explanations should be posted together with any opinion, especially on contentious issues...
You are required to post on topic. I'd suggest you adhere to that requirement.

Now, enough of unsubstantiated pet notions. Those are either off-topic, or this whole thread belongs in Pseudoscience.

 

[Write4U]

This mathematical universe that runs on values and functions. As you well know.

The Universe has no mathematical properties?

False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.
False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.
False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.
False. This is the Alt Theories forum. The onus is on you to make your case, not on anyone else to dismantle it. Read the rules.

You have yet to show how 'a universe that is mathematical and is powered by values and functions' is falsifiable.

Try doing science without the maths, see how far you get.

Since your idea of microtubules is propped up by an unfalsifiable conjecture of yours, it fails the test for a theory, and thus should be moved out of the Alt Theories forum.

No my definition of MT is a self-organizing nano-scale bi-polar variable coil which processes and transports electro-chemical information. Electro-chemical properties consist of discrete values and mathematical functions.

Because you have forgotten: Mod note.

But you can post anything you like and even intentionally try to torpedo an IMPORTANT scientific subject?

Now, enough of unsubstantiated pet notions. Those are either off-topic, or this whole thread belongs in Pseudoscience.

Then why don't you offer real science to the conversation? Are you suggesting the Topic of Consciousness belongs in Pseudoscience?
You have not offered anything that falsifies any of my posts. All I see is denial without reasons for denial. No positive contributions from you on this IMPORTANT SCIENTIFIC SUBJECT yet.

 

[exchemist]

The Universe has no mathematical properties? Try doing science without the maths, see how far you get. No my definition of MT is a self-organizing nano-scale bi-polar variable coil which processes and transports electro-chemical information. Electro-chemical properties consist of discrete values and mathematical functions. But you can post anything you like and even intentionally try to torpedo an IMPORTANT scientific subject?
Then why don't you offer real science to the conversation? Are you suggesting the Topic of Consciousness belongs in Pseudoscience?
You have not offered anything that falsifies any of my posts. All I see is denial without reasons for denial. No positive contributions from you on this IMPORTANT SCIENTIFIC SUBJECT yet.

This reads exactly like a Trump tweet - and makes about as much sense.

 

[Write4U]

This reads exactly like a Trump tweet - and makes about as much sense.

How enlightening. I just learn so much from your vast knowledge and wisdom.
Thanks for this valuable contribution to this important scientific topic.

 

[Write4U]

continuing our quest.....

Astral microtubules

Astral microtubules are a subpopulation of microtubules, which only exist during and immediately before mitosis. They are defined as any microtubule originating from the centrosome which does not connect to a kinetochore.[1] Astral microtubules develop in the actin skeleton and interact with the cell cortex to aid in spindle orientation. They are organized into radial arrays around the centrosomes. The turn-over rate of this population of microtubules is higher than any other population.

This diagram depicts the organization of a typical mitotic spindle found in animal cells. Chromosomes are attached to kinetochore microtubules via a multiprotein complex called the kinetochore. Polar microtubules interdigitate at the spindle midzone and push the spindle poles apart via motor proteins. Astral microtubules anchor the spindle poles to the cell membrane. Microtubule polymerization is nucleated at the microtubule organizing center.

Astral microtubules are not required for the progression of mitosis, but they are required to ensure the fidelity of the process. The function of astral microtubules can be generally considered as determination of cell geometry. They are absolutely required for correct positioning and orientation of the mitotic spindle apparatus, and are thus involved in determining the cell division site based on the geometry and polarity of the cells.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_microtubules​

 

[Write4U]

Microtubule and Microtubule Associated Protein Anomalies in Psychiatric Disease

Francesca Marchisella 1, Eleanor T Coffey 2, Patrik Hollos 1

Abstract

Anomalies in neuronal cell architecture, in particular dendritic complexity and synaptic density changes, are widely observed in the brains of subjects with schizophrenia or mood disorders. The concept that a disturbed microtubule cytoskeleton underlies these abnormalities and disrupts synaptic connectivity is supported by evidence from clinical studies and animal models.

Prominent changes in tubulin expression levels are commonly found in disease specific regions such as the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex of psychiatric patients. Genetic linkage studies associate tubulin-binding proteins such as the dihydropyrimidinase family with an increased risk to develop schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

For many years, altered immunoreactivity of microtubule associated protein-2 has been a hallmark found in the brains of individuals with schizophrenia. In this review, we present a growing body of evidence that connects a dysfunctional microtubule cytoskeleton with neuropsychiatric illnesses. Findings from animal models are discussed together with clinical data with a particular focus on tubulin post-translational modifications and on microtubule-binding proteins. © 2016 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27112918/

 

[Write4U]

Organelles of a human cell

 

[exchemist]

continuing our quest.....

"Our"?

 

[DaveC426913]

"Our"?

W4U and his sock.

 

[exchemist]

W4U and his sock.

Oh I assumed that was most likely Theorist back again, based on statements such as: P +(-P) = 2P

There is also the curious expression P¹⁰ + (-P) = 2P,
from which, if my algebra is right, P = ⁹√3 ~ 1.130.

But it could be someone new. It doesn't sound like Write4U, at least.

 

[Write4U]

But it could be someone new. It doesn't sound like Write4U, at least.

Well, isn't that generous of you. I appreciate that vote of confidence......but you managed to insert another insult to me, while addressing another poster. You are now resorting to "cheap shots"?
You must be a very unhappy individual needing to denegrade others to feel superior?

Denegrade
lessen value of object or person by ridicule or actions. Men are denegraded by sitcom humour, lessening their value in the home.

But fact is that you are lessening your value in this forum as well as in my home.

 

[Write4U]

W4U and his sock.

No, W4U and the pack of wolves hunting him. Or is it "coyotes"?

 

[exchemist]

Well, isn't that generous of you. I appreciate that vote of confidence......but you managed to insert another insult to me, while addressing another poster. You are now resorting to "cheap shots"?
You must be a very unhappy individual needing to denegrade others to feel superior?
But fact is that you are lessening your value in this forum as well as in my home.

Denigrate.

 

[Write4U]

OK then. Glad I put that disclaimer in there, then. Even if you ignored it.

Still Off-topic, by your own admission.

Denigrate.

Oh, you're too easy...hehe...

Denegrade
lessen value of object or person by ridicule or actions. Men are denegraded by sitcom humour, lessening their value in the home.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=denegrade

That little "urban" joke is on you, again....

 

[Write4U]

Your quest for scientific correctness only results in you throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" is an idiomatic expression for an avoidable error in which something good is eliminated when trying to get rid of something bad, or in other words, rejecting the favorable along with the unfavorable".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater

It is indicates a lack of generosity in spirit (if not understanding) when engaged in informal discussion of complex issues.