Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[exchemist]

No it isn't random stuff. It's all connected and the connection is facilitated by microtubules as the video demonstrates.
I realize that perhaps I might have given "start viewing" times, to avoid time consuming extraneous functions. The problem is that microtubules are involved in all information distribution functions in the body including mitosis itself.

The "start viewing" time of the above video is @ 13:45 (post # 1241) where the role of microtubules is introduced in context of the continual dynamic process of life and evolution in living organisms.
What point is that? My POV?........

So, by your own admission, you have forgotten the point of this thread. Well, others have not.

 

[Write4U]

If consciousness is a thought process, and microtubules are processors, then the inescapable conclusion is that, in view of the enormous amounts of information that need to be processed, there is but one "known" organic (organelle) information proccessing network in sufficient numbers to handle the "process of consciousness", and that is the MT network, which employs trillions of microtubules in the process of keeping the entire human organism alive via electro-chemical information processes.

The intent here is to gather available information on the role of MT in the analysis of general processes that lead to the emergence of "consciousness" and "self-awareness" of the information being processed.

As nearly all Eukaryotic organisms exhibit levels of electro-chemical information processing and nearly all have MT in common and as MTs process electro-chemical "bits" of information, can we not conclusively say that a "hard fact" is contained in the role microtubules play in context of a "platform for consciousness"?

Interesting research into the effects of cannabinoids on microtubule function. Just another piece of the puzzle.

Cytoskeletal Organization Following Cannabinoid Treatment in Undifferentiated and Differentiated PC12 Cells

Abstract
Confocal microscopy in association with three-dimensional reconstruction was used to examine the changes in the microtubules and microfilaments following cannabinoid treatment of PC12 cells. Microtubules and microfilaments were disrupted in a dose-dependent manner following treatment with 10-30 microM delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). A disruption of microtubules and microfilaments was observed following treatment with 30 microM cannabidiol and cannabinol. The amount of microtubules and microfilaments was reduced in a dose-dependent manner following treatment with 10 and 20 microM THC.

Cannabidiol and cannabinol reduced the amount of microtubules and microfilaments; however, the reduction was less than that observed with THC treatment. Following the addition of nerve growth factor, differentiated PC12 cells were generally more sensitive to cannabinoid treatments than undifferentiated cells. The possible mechanisms that may account for the changes in microtubules and microfilaments following cannabinoid treatment are discussed.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1297339/

 

[exchemist]

If consciousness is a thought process, and microtubules are processors, then the inescapable conclusion is that, in view of the enormous amounts of information that need to be processed, there is but one "known" organic (organelle) information proccessing network in sufficient numbers to handle the "process of consciousness", and that is the MT network.

The intent here is to gather available information on the role of MT in the analysis of general processes that lead to the emergence of "consciousness" and "self-awareness".

As nearly all Eukaryotic organisms exhibit levels of electro-chemical information processing and nearly all have MT in common and as MTs process electro-chemical 'bits" of information, can we not conclusively say that a "hardfact" is contained in the role microtubules play in the platform of consciousness?

Interesting research into the effects of cannabinoids on microtubule function. Just another piece of the puzzle.

Cytoskeletal Organization Following Cannabinoid Treatment in Undifferentiated and Differentiated PC12 Cells https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1297339/

......except that there is no evidence at all that microtubules process information.

 

[DaveC426913]

If consciousness is a thought process, and microtubules are processors, then the inescapable conclusion is that...
[a bunch of other stuff]
...can we not conclusively say that a "hardfact" is contained in the role microtubules play in the platform of consciousness?

This is circular reasoning.

You are essentially asserting that "if microtubules play a part in consciousness then we can conclusively say microtubules play a part in consciousness."

It's dressed up with a few other words but, in essence, you are using your conclusion to prop up your premise. That's called "begging the question".

 

[DaveC426913]

......except that there is no evidence at all that microtubules process information.

Yep.
And since the if premise doesn't hold, the conclusion is false.

 

[Write4U]

This is circular reasoning.

That's all there is in the circle of potential candidates. Can you provide an alternative candidate that exhibits the enormous amounts and varieties of information processing abilities and is a self-organizing organelle in every Eukariotic organism as thistiny little marvel of evolutionary success in processing mathematical values, sufficient to keep a human biome alive.

A "hard fact" is a hard fact regardless of the pattern it is presented. We can see the MT function as they direct information around the functional cytoskeleton and in the brain.

This is the argument that tries to use available "hard facts" as a foundation on which to build a comprehensive understanding and a conceptual model of the "hard question". This is Tegmark's approach to the problem.

 

[DaveC426913]

That's all there is in the circle of potential candidates.

Says you.

Can you provide an alternative candidate

"If you don't provide an answer. that means my answer is right." is not a valid argument.

If it were, then my theory that "Dark Matter is alien pixie dust" would have to be accepted.

 

[Write4U]

exchemist said; ↑ ......except that there is no evidence at all that microtubules process information.

Dave said; Yep. And since the if premise doesn't hold, the conclusion is false.

And here, IMHO, you are both seriously uninformed. MT are information processors, this is a "hard fact" and I have presented copious evidence of MT information processing abilities in all those extraneous little quotes from, and links to reliable scientific sources.

Is it any wonder that I am posting a lot of information on the functions, and roles MT play in the scheme of a complex living organism such as a humanbiome. I post all this in support of the "hard fact", that microtubules are extremely efficient and versatile information processors. MT are the scaffolding network for all biological information being transported to the brain, of DNA copying in mitosis,
There is no other known cellular transport system that comes aven close to MT network in scope or versatility of information processing and memory storing anywhere near MT.

If we could just agree on that, then we can use concerted efforts to unravel the mystery of how consciousness emerges in tandem with greater volume and sophistication of sensory experiences.

 

[billvon]

And here, IMHO, you are both seriously uninformed. MT are information processors, this is a "hard fact"

That's like saying quarters are information processors, since you can flip them, look at how they land and make a decision. Information!

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said: ↑
That's all there is in the circle of potential candidates.

Says you.

No, that's a scientific concensus.

"If you don't provide an answer. that means my answer is right." is not a valid argument.
If it were, then my theory that "Dark Matter is alien pixie dust" would have to be accepted.

No, Dave that's not a good argument.
I have provided an answer, you have not. I am not talking about pixie dust. I am talking about a biological organelle which is demonstrably present by the trillions as a major component of a human biological pattern itself.
Yet for some obscure reason you completely dimiss my answer which is verifiable with all those "extraneous" posts demonstrating the critical information processing and transportation abilities displayed by MT. By the trillions! Every second of the day!

In effect MTs process our continued existence and self-referential experiences......

 

[Write4U]

That's like saying quarters are information processors, since you can flip them, look at how they land and make a decision. Information!

No, that's a false and naive representation. Flipping a coin is not a function of the coin.
Let me put this in perspective. The entire chromosomal information of a cell is faithfully and functionally copied and prepared for mitosis (cell division itself), by microtubules! Cilia, which allow paramecium to swim. Sliding microtubules which allow slime molds to walk, are all functions of MT informational processing . All senses transport their sensory information to the brain via MT. Long term memory is stored in MR pyramids!

MT are functional throughout the entire Eukaryotic biology on earth. They have the same self-assembling pattern from just 2 tubulins (dimer) and perform the same (more or less dedicated) functions in all organisms.

These are hard facts and are not trivial and I am really surprised by the lack of enthusiasm in this worthy area of serious research. Microtubules are "worthy" of deep study. Roger Penrose's interest is at least an indication of a potential candidate in the search for "emergent cosciousness".

Of all the illustrations of enzymes and hormones, the simple mathematics of the coiled polar microtubules is so clearly visible it begs for regular mathematical processes to occur.

I cannot see and no one has offered an acceptable alternative to MT as the best candidate for studying it's role in the emergence of consciousness.

 

[billvon]

No, that's a false and naive representation. Flipping a coin is not a function of the coin.

Sure it is. It responds to the physical environment and make a decision. Information has been added.

Let me put this in perspective. The entire chromosomal information of a cell is faithfully and functionally copied and prepared for mitosis (cell division itself), by microtubules! Cilia, which allow paramecium to swim. Sliding microtubules which allow slime molds to walk, are all functions of MT informational processing . All senses transport their sensory information to the brain via MT. Long term memory is stored in MR pyramids!

Do they freshen your breath and whiten your teeth, too? I'll take a dozen!

I cannot see and no one has offered an acceptable alternative to MT as the best candidate for studying it's role in the emergence of consciousness.

Deep neural networks are the best candidate for the vehicle of consciousness, and have been for the past few decades.

 

[Write4U]

Sure it is. It responds to the physical environment and make a decision. Information has been added.

What you are describing is a quantum event. A better example would be "sticking a credit card in a computer network to record item by item what's in your shopping cart".

Microtubules are the highways and scaffolding for a host of electro-chemical information transportation. They are in a constant dynamic state of self-regulating signals.

Do they freshen your breath and whiten your teeth, too? I'll take a dozen!

I would not be surprised. You must realize, microtubules are involved in the very process of cell division during your entire lifetime. They are actively involved in every facet of human sensory experience and by extension part of consciousness itself.
How about a trillion or two?

Deep neural networks are the best candidate for the vehicle of consciousness, and have been for the past few decades.

Yes, and the deep information processors inside neural networks are microtubules, together with the intermediate and microfilaments. The growth of the neuronal network is a function of microtubules. That is a hard fact.

Microtubules

Look at this marvel of a self-assembling bi-polar electro-chemical information processor. It's elegant simplicity is an evolutionary triumph and the biological patterns is found in every Eukaryotic organisms. It is a common denominator of all self-aware organisms which posses biological neural networks. These tubes provide the biological highway for transport of electro-chemical "bits" of information all throughout the body and the brain.

Microtubules

Microtubules are polymers of tubulin that form part of the cytoskeleton and provide structure and shape to eukaryotic cells. Microtubules can grow as long as 50 micrometres and are highly dynamic. The outer diameter of a microtubule is between 23 and 27 nm[2] while the inner diameter is between 11 and 15 nm.[3] They are formed by the polymerization of a dimer of two globular proteins, alpha and beta tubulin into protofilaments that can then associate laterally to form a hollow tube, the microtubule.[4] The most common form of a microtubule consists of 13 protofilaments in the tubular arrangement.

Microtubules are one of the cytoskeletal filament systems in eukaryotic cells. The microtubule cytoskeleton is involved in the transport of material within cells, carried out by motor proteins that move on the surface of the microtubule.

Microtubules are very important in a number of cellular processes. They are involved in maintaining the structure of the cell and, together with microfilaments and intermediate filaments, they form the cytoskeleton. They also make up the internal structure of cilia and flagella. They provide platforms for intracellular transport and are involved in a variety of cellular processes, including the movement of secretory vesicles, organelles, and intracellular macromolecular assemblies (see entries for dynein and kinesin).[5] They are also involved in cell division (by mitosis and meiosis) and are the major constituents of mitotic spindles, which are used to pull eukaryotic chromosomes apart.

Microtubules are nucleated and organized by microtubule organizing centers (MTOCs), such as the centrosome found in the center of many animal cells or the basal bodies found in cilia and flagella, or the spindle pole bodies found in most fungi.

There are many proteins that bind to microtubules, including the motor proteins kinesin and dynein, microtubule-severing proteins like katanin, and other proteins important for regulating microtubule dynamics.[6] Recently an actin-like protein has been found in a gram-positive bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis, which forms a microtubule-like structure called a nanotubule, involved in plasmid segregation.[7] Other bacterial microtubules have a ring of five protofilaments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule

 

[Write4U]

Tell me, are the microtubule functions not a mode of information processing and transportation? I showed copious videos on the process.

Of microtubules and memory: implications for microtubule dynamics in dendrites and spines

ABSTRACT

Microtubules (MTs) are cytoskeletal polymers composed of repeating subunits of tubulin that are ubiquitously expressed in eukaryotic cells. They undergo a stochastic process of polymerization and depolymerization from their plus ends termed dynamic instability.

MT dynamics is an ongoing process in all cell types and has been the target for the development of several useful anticancer drugs, which compromise rapidly dividing cells.

Recent studies also suggest that MT dynamics may be particularly important in neurons, which develop a highly polarized morphology, consisting of a single axon and multiple dendrites that persist throughout adulthood.

MTs are especially dynamic in dendrites and have recently been shown to polymerize directly into dendritic spines, the postsynaptic compartment of excitatory neurons in the CNS. These transient polymerization events into dendritic spines have been demonstrated to play important roles in synaptic plasticity in cultured neurons.

Recent studies also suggest that MT dynamics in the adult brain function in the essential process of learning and memory and may be compromised in degenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer’s disease. This raises the possibility of targeting MT dynamics in the design of new therapeutic agents

And you persist in denying that microtubules are the only good known candidates for research into the hard problem of consciousness. AFAIK, there are no known other methods which might produce a network of sensory collection and processing . MT are the only viable possibility.

 

[exchemist]

That's all there is in the circle of potential candidates. Can you provide an alternative candidate that exhibits the enormous amounts and varieties of information processing abilities and is a self-organizing organelle in every Eukariotic organism as thistiny little marvel of evolutionary success in processing mathematical values, sufficient to keep a human biome alive.

A "hard fact" is a hard fact regardless of the pattern it is presented. We can see the MT function as they direct information around the functional cytoskeleton and in the brain.

This is the argument that tries to use available "hard facts" as a foundation on which to build a comprehensive understanding and a conceptual model of the "hard question". This is Tegmark's approach to the problem.

This is exactly the way creationist argue.

They say: if we don't have an explanation then it must be Goddidit.

You say: if we don't have an explanation then it must be quantum processes in microtubules.

This is nonsense.

And no, we can't "see the microtubules function as they direct information around the functional cytoskeleton and in the brain". You have made that up.

 

[exchemist]

Tell me, are the microtubule functions not a mode of information processing and transportation? I showed copious videos on the process.

There is no evidence that microtubules are a "mode of information processing".

"Transportation" is not processing.

You have shown no videos on any process showing that microtubules process information.

 

[Write4U]

This is exactly the way creationist argue.

And I don't hear you levy ad hominem at them.

They say: if we don't have an explanation then it must be Goddidit.

They have been doing that for centuries. And that would be true if they could prove God exists. I can prove MT exist and do exactly what would be required for the emergence of consciousness.

You say: if we don't have an explanation then it must be quantum processes in microtubules.
This is nonsense.

It would be if I had said that, which I have not. You are projecting. It is Hameroff who says believes that microtubules may be suitable for quantum consideration and Penrose who is interested in that possibility. That's where it stands. I can't see where this is unscientific and deserving of unwarranted critique.

And no, we can't "see the microtubules function as they direct information around the functional cytoskeleton and in the brain". You have made that up.

No. I have provided electron microscope videos of dyed microtubules and the cargo they carry and they do process information very much like a computer "processes" information.

There is no evidence that microtubules are a "mode of information processing".

Those are not my words. These are the words by scientists, all of them, except you!

"Transportation" is not processing.

That's a deliberate misstatement. Do computers transport information? Do computers process information? Does the neural network transport and process information? Are microtubules and microfilaments the actual information processors and transporters within the neural network?

You have shown no videos on any process showing that microtubules process information.

Yes I have. You refuse to examine the evidence.

How many times do I have to say that we have just started doing science at this scale. Of course there is little evidence of microtubules at work. They require electron microscopes which are barely able to record observe objects and activities at nano scales.

As to "candidates" for roles in the emergence of consciousness, can you suggest a different, better alternative?
If not, why do you believe it necessary to denegrade the role of microtubules in the neural network?

Moreover, you have not yet voiced any reason why you reject microtubules as Woo. I show you papers and you crumple them in my face and throw them in the trashcan without showing any justification why you feel compelled to act in such boorish manner. What is you objection to microtubules? Care to drop a hint?

 

[Write4U]

Let's clear up this "function" cunundrum that you have created.

Microtubules are functioning organelles, OK? Their functions include, but are not limited to;

What are the functions of microtubules
There are 4 main functions of microtubules:

1.To form an architectural framework that establishes the overall polarity of the cell by influencing the organization of the nucleus, organelles and other cytoskeleton components.

2. To form the spindle apparatus and ensure the proper segregation of duplicated chromosomes into daughter cells during cell division (i.e. cytokinesis). The spindle apparatus also regulates the assembly and location of the actin-rich contractile ring that pinches and separates the two daughter cells.

3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.

4. To form a rigid internal core that is used by microtubule-associated motor proteins to generate force and movement in motile structures such as cilia and flagella. A core of microtubules in the neural growth cone and axon also imparts stability and drives neural navigation and guidance.

Microtubules are the largest cytoskeletal element, being 20-25nm in width, and substantially longer than microfilaments. These filaments play important roles in cell communication and cytokinesis. Microtubules are formed through the lateral association of between 12 and 17 tubulin protofilaments, which arrange to form a very stiff and hollow filament structure. Microtubules are also highly dynamic, undergoing rapid cycles of polymerization and depolymerization in a process known as dynamic instability. Microtubules emanate from a microtubule organizing centre (MTOC) where their minus end is embedded and the plus end grows towards the cell periphery. Amongst their most important functions is to ensure that chromosomes are equally distributed amongst the daughter cells. The movement of cilia and flagella is also microtubule dependent.

https://www.mechanobio.info/cytoskeleton-dynamics/what-is-the-cytoskeleton/what-are-microtubules/

Can we agree that microtubules are functioning organelles? This is really so basic, I don't know what the intent of this manufactured problem is.

 

[river]

Write4U

No. I have provided electron microscope videos of dyed microtubules and the cargo they carry and they do process information very much like a computer "processes" information.

Whats with the constant comparison of this Life , of life , with a computer ?

Explain yourself .

 

[river]

Let's clear up this "function" cunundrum that you have created.

Microtubules are functioning organelles, OK? Their functions include, but are not limited to;

What are the functions of microtubules
There are 4 main functions of microtubules:

1.To form an architectural framework that establishes the overall polarity of the cell by influencing the organization of the nucleus, organelles and other cytoskeleton components.

2. To form the spindle apparatus and ensure the proper segregation of duplicated chromosomes into daughter cells during cell division (i.e. cytokinesis). The spindle apparatus also regulates the assembly and location of the actin-rich contractile ring that pinches and separates the two daughter cells.

3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.

4. To form a rigid internal core that is used by microtubule-associated motor proteins to generate force and movement in motile structures such as cilia and flagella. A core of microtubules in the neural growth cone and axon also imparts stability and drives neural navigation and guidance.

https://www.mechanobio.info/cytoskeleton-dynamics/what-is-the-cytoskeleton/what-are-microtubules/

Can we agree that microtubules are functioning organelles? This is really so basic, I don't know what the intent of this manufactured problem is.

To your statement above , (highlighted ) ; define " functioning "


To your last statement Write4U ; most people , including myself , have no idea what you are on about ( talking about ) . But it reads interesting .( is there a book(s) on microtubules ? ).