Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

To your statement above , (highlighted ) ; define " functioning "

Why?

To your last statement Write4U ; most people , including myself , have no idea what you are on about ( talking about ) . But it reads interesting .

Then why don't you read a little more? It gets better, the more you learn about microtubules and their critical importance in our lives.

Trust me, the more you learn about the neural network and how it functions the more it suggests that MT are the only viable candidate for being an important player in the phenomenon of consciousness.

I am still waiting for anyone to offer a viable alternative instead of verbal sticks and stones.

 

[river]

Why? Then why don't you read a little more? It gets better, the more you learn about microtubules and their critical importance in our lives.

Trust me, the more you learn about the neural network and how it functions the more it suggests that MT are the only viable candidate for being an important player in the phenomenon of consciousness.

I am still waiting for anyone to offer a viable alternative instead of verbal sticks and stones.

Books Write4U , books on the subject , are there any ?

 

[billvon]

I am still waiting for anyone to offer a viable alternative instead of verbal sticks and stones.

I have, several times. Deep neural networks. Why are you unable to process that?

 

[DaveC426913]

Write4U errantly conflates biological function with programmatic functions. He seems to have trouble with multiple meanings of the same word and the use of metaphor.

If I said "multiple meanings", Write4U, is his head, might interpret this as actual multiplication: "meaning x meaning = meaning^2", or some such mangling of language.

 

[Write4U]

Books Write4U , books on the subject , are there any ?

No, it is a new science at nanoscale levels and there is very little information available, but lots of research and experimentation. Those are the paper I have been collecting instead of referencing a single authoritative book.

This is why I called this effort as building a reference library, in an attempt to bring together a lot of seemingly unrelated papers on microtubules and their functions, in ALL living Eukaryotic organisms in the world.

This is not trivial, it is a common denominator (hard fact) of cellular based living things.

 

[DaveC426913]

This is not trivial, it is a common denominator (hard fact) of cellular based living things.

By such logic - if all cellular things have microtubules, and microtubules are the mechanism of consciousness then all cellular living things should be conscious.

But it gets worse. You could say the same thing about proteins, or enzymes. "If proteins and enzymes are a common denominator of all living things, then they must be the mechanism by which consciousness manifests." Or ATP, or DNA, etc. So what?

This is egregiously bad logic.

 

[Write4U]

Write4U errantly conflates biological function with mathematical functions. He seems to have trouble with multiple meanings of the same word and the use of metaphor.

No you do. I use terms where appropriate and in context. If you want to attach a different unrelated context that's your problem, not mine.

If I said "multiple meanings", Write4U, is his head, might interpret this as actual multiplication: "meaning x meaning = meaning^2", or some such mangling of language.

You are completely wrong and that makes you the fool for even attempting to characterize my thought processes.

If you want to start a thread on my use of language, put it in the proper sub-forum and stop accusing me of posting off-topic crap. You don't seem to be able to follow my thought processes. Try harder to understand, instead of unwarranted kneejerk rejection.

 

[DaveC426913]

You don't seem to be able to follow my thought processes. Try harder to understand, instead of unwarranted kneejerk rejection.

Dude, we've all been watching your "thought processes" for thousands of posts, across multiple threads and topics. They are deeply flawed - you keep making the same mistakes as you do here, and you ignore those to whom the errors are transparent.

Calling these errors out is on-topic, and a valid part of the conversation.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Books Write4U , books on the subject , are there any ?

No, it is a new science at nanoscale levels and there is very little information available, but lots of research and experimentation. Those are the paper I have been collecting instead of referencing a single authoritative book.

This is why I called this effort as building a reference library, in an attempt to bring together a lot of seemingly unrelated papers on microtubules and their functions, in ALL living Eukaryotic organisms in the world.

This is not trivial, it is a common denominator (hard fact) of cellular based living things.

No books , disappointing .

So where did you learn of microtubules , Write4U .

 

[Write4U]

By such logic - if all cellular things have microtubules, and microtubules are the mechanism of consciousness then all cellular living things should be conscious.

Now we're talking! It is not necessary for a living thing to be conscious, as long as the microtubules are able to process the information required to keep you alive. Interoception is an unconscious control function of the brain which keeps your organs functioning at optimum performance. A person is completely unaware of the interoception process and only learns about the state of the organs when something goes wrong.
But instead of me educating you on the definition of the terms function and process, why don't you instruct me on the definition of "consciousness" and what it takes for consciousness to become expressed. Is the paremecium conscious? How about the slime mold. How about geese navigating the earth's magnetic fields? How about dolphins and whales using sonar and vertically stacked sentences to communicate.

RO

But it gets worse. You could say the same thing about proteins, or enzymes. "If proteins and enzymes are a common denominator of all living things, then they must be the mechanism by which consciousness manifests." Or ATP, or DNA, etc. So what?
This is egregiously bad logic.

Yes it is and let me remind you that this is your statement, not mine.

This not anywhere near what is being said and it is a pure figement of your imagination in suggesting such egregiously bad logic. Proteins and enzymes and other electro-chemical mathematical patterns do not process information, they are the information being processed.

Give me an alternate information processor which does not employ MT. I'd be very interested. So far I have not heard one single proposition of a organelle that performs the same or better than MT.

MT are the only remaining candidate. Unless someone can come up with a serious suggestion of a functional part of the human neural network apart from MT, I'll continue to defend MT as the most likely candidate instrumental in the emergence of consciousness.

p.s. Consciousness is a many level state of awareness, usually a product of evolved and directly connected to acquired survival techniques and skills.

 

[river]

Now we're talking! It is not necessary for a living thing to be conscious, as long as the microtubules are able to process the information required to keep you alive. Interoception is an unconscious control function of the brain which keeps your organs functioning at optimum performance. A person is completely unaware of the interoception process and only learns about the state of the organs when something goes wrong.
Yes it is and let me remind you that this is your statement, not mine.
This not anywhere near what is being said and it is a pure figement of your imagination in suggesting such egregiously bad logic. Proteins and enzymes and other electro-chemical mathematical patterns do not process information, they are the information being processed.

Give me an alternate information processor which does not employ MT. I'd be very interested. So far I have not heard one single proposition of a organelle that performs the same or better than MT.

MT , Write4U , stands for ? Remind me .

If you look up microtubules on the internet , they will give you pictures , if you ask .

 

[exchemist]

Let's clear up this "function" cunundrum that you have created.

Microtubules are functioning organelles, OK? Their functions include, but are not limited to;

What are the functions of microtubules
There are 4 main functions of microtubules:

1.To form an architectural framework that establishes the overall polarity of the cell by influencing the organization of the nucleus, organelles and other cytoskeleton components.

2. To form the spindle apparatus and ensure the proper segregation of duplicated chromosomes into daughter cells during cell division (i.e. cytokinesis). The spindle apparatus also regulates the assembly and location of the actin-rich contractile ring that pinches and separates the two daughter cells.

3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.

4. To form a rigid internal core that is used by microtubule-associated motor proteins to generate force and movement in motile structures such as cilia and flagella. A core of microtubules in the neural growth cone and axon also imparts stability and drives neural navigation and guidance.

Microtubules are the largest cytoskeletal element, being 20-25nm in width, and substantially longer than microfilaments. These filaments play important roles in cell communication and cytokinesis. Microtubules are formed through the lateral association of between 12 and 17 tubulin protofilaments, which arrange to form a very stiff and hollow filament structure. Microtubules are also highly dynamic, undergoing rapid cycles of polymerization and depolymerization in a process known as dynamic instability. Microtubules emanate from a microtubule organizing centre (MTOC) where their minus end is embedded and the plus end grows towards the cell periphery. Amongst their most important functions is to ensure that chromosomes are equally distributed amongst the daughter cells. The movement of cilia and flagella is also microtubule dependent.

https://www.mechanobio.info/cytoskeleton-dynamics/what-is-the-cytoskeleton/what-are-microtubules/

Can we agree that microtubules are functioning organelles? This is really so basic, I don't know what the intent of this manufactured problem is.

None of these 4 functions constitutes information processing.

No scientist has claimed evidence that microtubules process information.

And you certainly have not shown any evidence of that on this thread. All you have been able to refer to is Hameroff and Penrose's still unsubstantiated speculative hypothesis.

 

[Write4U]

None of these 4 functions constitutes information processing.

3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.

The Neural network in living organisms process electro-chemical information.

If this simple statement cannot be agreed on , all discussion with you is useless.
Which does not mean I will drop this avenue of inquiry. There are plenty other posters who are interested enought to follow the research in this important aspect of higher life forms. At what point in the evolution of living organisms does consciousness emerge and what are the main constituent organelles responsible for this extraordinary ability to experience a life sized representation of reality inside the small confinement of your skull.

 

[river]

Write4U said ;

Proteins and enzymes and other electro-chemical mathematical patterns do not process information, they are the information being processed.

( from your post #1290 )

Disagree .

Both Proteins and Enzymes are real physical objects . Hence beyond anything just mathematical .

 

[exchemist]

Now we're talking! It is not necessary for a living thing to be conscious, as long as the microtubules are able to process the information required to keep you alive. Interoception is an unconscious control function of the brain which keeps your organs functioning at optimum performance. A person is completely unaware of the interoception process and only learns about the state of the organs when something goes wrong.
Yes it is and let me remind you that this is your statement, not mine.
This not anywhere near what is being said and it is a pure figement of your imagination in suggesting such egregiously bad logic. Proteins and enzymes and other electro-chemical mathematical patterns do not process information, they are the information being processed.

Give me an alternate information processor which does not employ MT. I'd be very interested. So far I have not heard one single proposition of a organelle that performs the same or better than MT.

There is no evidence microtubules process information either.

 

[exchemist]

3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.

That is the physical transport of biochemical substances within the cell.

It is not information processing, any more than me buying a loaf of bread at the shops and bringing it home is "information processing".

 

[Write4U]

That is the physical transport of biochemical substances within the cell.

It is not information processing, any more than me buying a loaf of bread at the shops and bringing it home is "information processing".

Well, that's where you are wrong.
By that standard the universe cannot process any information. Are you sure, you know the fundamental function of information processing?

Information processing is the change (processing) of information in any manner detectable by an observer. As such, it is a process that describes everything that happens (changes) in the universe, from the falling of a rock (a change in position) to the printing of a text file from a digital computer system. In the latter case, an information processor (the printer) is changing the form of presentation of that text file (from bytes to glyphs)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_processing

 

[river]

Write4U said: ↑
3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein

That is the physical transport of biochemical substances within the cell.

It is not information processing, any more than me buying a loaf of bread at the shops and bringing it home is "information processing".

But it is exchemist . Bio-Chemisrty is so complicated . Biochemistry is all about information processing . But what is the essence behind this gathering of knowledge .

Its not anything hologram nor electronic . The Universe is based on neither .

But I still disagree with Write4U because for anything mathematical to exist the physical must exist first .

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said ;

( from your post #1290 )

Disagree .

Both Proteins and Enzymes are real physical objects . Hence beyond anything just mathematical .

It is their relative value (electro-chemical potential) which determines the process of interaction and results.

How can you tell enzymes and proteins and hormones apart? It is the mathematical values of their physical patterns that determine their characteristics, behaviors, and interactions.

Read Tegmark, he has a book (and several Youtube vids I have linked to in several other threads) on the "Mathematical Universe".

 

[river]

It is their relative value (electro-chemical potential) which determines the process of interaction and results.

How can you tell enzymes and proteins and hormones apart? It is the mathematical values of their physical patterns that determine their characteristics, behaviors, and interactions.

Read Tegmark, he has a book (and several Youtube vids I have linked to in several other threads) on the "Mathematical Universe".

Highlighted

Physical Patterns , Write4U