Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

Electrochemical guided by Lifes Energy , is the essence of the mathematics . Mathematics can not create any thing physical in and of its self .

I never claimed that. My claim is that mathematics are the rules by which creation and evolution (via natural selection) progresses. To build a house you first need a blueprint. Then you need a list of materials that are required by the blueprint. Once those materials are available the building can procees in accordance to the rules set forth in the blueprint. You miss some of the instructions and that part of the house will collapse by the mathematical laws of natural selection.

The order that exist in nature is due to the deterministic mathematics that permit or prevent relational interactions to be successful or fail.
It is the Logical quasi-intelligent essence of the Universe.

IMO, it is also the reason why there are so many religions ascribing a motivated intelligence as the creative agency. There is an illusion of intelligent design, but in the end it is just simple mathematical functions.
(value) Input --> (mathematical) function --> (value) Output --> (observable) Patterns.

My claim is that only Logical (mathematical) processes are necessary for the creative and evolutionary chronologies to unfold from the interaction of inherent potential values enfolded in all things.

 

[Write4U]

Electrochemical guided by Lifes Energy , is the essence of the mathematics . Mathematics can not create any thing physical in and of its self .

Your turn. What in the world is "life's energy"?
The "Elan vital" that has been proven to be "overthinking" the creative problem? Like religion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élan_vital

 

[Write4U]

For you now what , no mathematics here as the essence of the microtubules .

And that is where I believe you are missing the point. Microtubules are "data processors" and as such obey EM laws, that are mathematical in essence.
Note that microtubules are dipolar spiral coils, which means they are microprocessors. Moreover, their variable length makes them into "potentiometers" and that is an active control mechanism, not just a passive conductor.

Now imagine a network of a trillion actively controlling data processors and add a few billion years of evolutionary processes, producing a more finely tuned and sensitive communication network with each generation.

Note that microtubules themselves are evolved from Prokaryotic fibrils which were the common microtubule precursor.

Origin and Evolution of the Self-Organizing Cytoskeleton in the Network of Eukaryotic Organelles, Gáspár Jékely

Abstract

The eukaryotic cytoskeleton evolved from prokaryotic cytomotive filaments. Prokaryotic filament systems show bewildering structural and dynamic complexity and, in many aspects, prefigure the self-organizing properties of the eukaryotic cytoskeleton.

Here, the dynamic properties of the prokaryotic and eukaryotic cytoskeleton are compared, and how these relate to function and evolution of organellar networks is discussed.

The evolution of new aspects of filament dynamics in eukaryotes, including severing and branching, and the advent of molecular motors converted the eukaryotic cytoskeleton into a self-organizing “active gel,” the dynamics of which can only be described with computational models.

And IMO, this is the "beginning" of evolving emergent consciousness.

Advances in modeling and comparative genomics hold promise of a better understanding of the evolution of the self-organizing cytoskeleton in early eukaryotes, and its role in the evolution of novel eukaryotic functions, such as amoeboid motility, mitosis, and ciliary swimming.

https://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/6/9/a016030.full

 

[arfa brane]

See what you're discussing here:

Information about any physical system can be as coarse-grained or fine-grained as you can manage to make it.
Evolution though is a process; this process inputs (some form of) information and outputs different information--it might only be slightly different.

Difference is what entropy (in particular information entropy) is based on.

 

[Write4U]

See what you're discussing here:
Information about any physical system can be as coarse-grained or fine-grained as you can manage to make it.

And that means it cannot be valid either way? I know what I am discussing and at what level.

So far, every general conclusion I have arrived at from available information has been confirmed by the ongoing research in this important field of inquiry.

Evolution though is a process; this process inputs (some form of) information and outputs different information--it might only be slightly different.

I believe that's exactly what I posited, with supporting scientific links. If you are referring to the genetic mutation of chromosome 2, that has to do with "intelligence", not consciousness.

Difference is what entropy (in particular information entropy) is based on.

What difference are you talking about? Consciousness is based on information entropy?

 

[arfa brane]

If you are referring to the genetic mutation of chromosome 2, that has to do with "intelligence", not consciousness.

Nope, I didn't mention any chromosomes. I didn't mention intelligence or consciousness either.

What difference are you talking about? Consciousness is based on information entropy?

I was only referring to evolution making changes, nothing else. I didn't even say anything about how it does this (but in bacteria and viruses, it happens quite quickly mostly because of transcription errors; it's how the covid variants arose over the last two years, for example).

 

[Write4U]

Nope, I didn't mention any chromosomes. I didn't mention intelligence or consciousness either.

Well they are both products of evolutionary processes and their functional proto-types can be measured very early in the cytoplasm and cytoskeleton of even single-celled organisms. The evolutionary refinement and complexity of intelligence and emergent consciousness is demonstrated by all the surviving levels of species adapted to their environment, from extremophiles that require an environment that is deadly to all other species, to the mayfly that spends most of it's life in the larval stage and when hatched has just 24 hr to live and mate and for the female to die in water, because any eggs on land dry out and never hatch to produce a next generation. Natural selection solved that problem by producing up 3000 eggs and the female seeks water while spreading her pheromones on the wind which males several males away can detect and follow towards the female. The number of successful reproductive processes are astounding. Natural selection is extremely effective over long periods of time. This is why man has adopted the process in its quest to breed variety in species that are only ornamental.

I was only referring to evolution making changes, nothing else.

Yes, and that is why the proper definition of evolution is " evolution via natural selection" where natural selection becomes the arbiter of survivability and ultimately benefit the species' gene pool.

I didn't even say anything about how it does this (but in bacteria and viruses, it happens quite quickly mostly because of transcription errors; it's how the covid variants arose over the last two years, for example).

Yes despite the body's defenses, any cellular mutation in nanoscale organisms are relatively large and usually affects their virulence positively or negatively because that is the only dynamic attribute viruses have. OTOH, cellular mutations in large organisms usually create relatively small variations that may or may not be beneficial to the organism's ability to survive in its environment and pass the survivability test of natural selection.

Hence the enormous variety of adapted species as well as the unmeasurable number of variations that did not survive the test of natural selection.

 

[arfa brane]

Information and its input from an external environment, if say, we decide the brain and all its neurophysical extensions throughout the body is separate, in some logical sense, from the rest of the body, is for that brain, quite a limited set.

I think that means we are conscious of the external world because we don't get the chance to input a whole lot of information from it. Our senses and our sense of a flow of time are only as good as evolution "decided".

Or, evolution doesn't and hasn't given us any greater perceptive sense (information input capacity or bandwidth) than we needed. Evolution is parsimonious (yes, that's one of those big words).

 

[Write4U]

Information and its input from an external environment, if say, we decide the brain and all its neurophysical extensions throughout the body is separate, in some logical sense, from the rest of the body, is for that brain, quite a limited set.

I believe it has been decided that all cells in eukaryotic organisms are in communication with each other and by extension with the brain via the spinal cord. (Note: neurons are cells with cytoplasm and cytoskeletons)

I think that means we are conscious of the external world because we don't get the chance to input a whole lot of information from it. Our senses and our sense of a flow of time are only as good as evolution "decided".

I agree, natural selection only selects for survivability by reproduction and survival skills and do not necessarily have to be complex as long as they allow for reproduction.This is why we can observe adapted species over a range and stages of evolution, sufficient for that species. The great apes except for homo sapiens are a perfect baseline of naturally evolved intelligence and by extension consciousness sufficient to survive in several types of forests.

Humans seem to be an anomaly and possess intelligence and conscious awareness far beyond natural necessity due to a major beneficial mutation (fusion of 2 chromosomes into 1 larger chromosome). It is what allowed us to migrate, invade, and conquer most of the solid land. It may also be our demise! We have become too successful and are now on a par with other invasive species that kill their host.

Or, evolution doesn't and hasn't given us any greater perceptive sense (information input capacity or bandwidth) than we needed. Evolution is parsimonious (yes, that's one of those big words).

True, almost all animals exceed humans in some type and form of sensory ability.

But the human brain seems to be the most complex in the animal world and capable of deep analytical powers over and above adaptive necessities.
One of the excellent qualities of the human brain is the ability to recognize the mathematical essence of natural phenomena and how this mathematical essence can be symbolized and used to artificially imitate natural phenomena.

Many other animals have a sense of quantity and/or quality (more (good) here and less (bad) there). Even bees can decide which patch has more flowering plants than another and communicate that information to the rest of the hive. Many predatory animals use triangulation to calculate distance and trajectory. The variety of survival skills is endless in scope and subtleties.

Humans have almost all of them and where we don't we make instruments that inform us where our natural senses fail. Our survival skill is in tool making and imitating natural processes themselves. Humans are the living gods of this planet.

 

[arfa brane]

These living gods: why do they enjoy listening to music?

What's your theory? Please try to use physical thoughts in your answer
(not so subtle dig at James R)

 

[James R]

Please stop trolling, arfa.

Ta.

 

[Write4U]

These living gods: why do they enjoy listening to music?

Because we can reproduce and imitate the natural affinity and symmetry of self-ordering wave functions and natural harmonics with instruments tuned to wave-lengths audible to the human senses.
Personally, I played music for a living for 7 years .

What's your theory? Please try to use physical thoughts in your answer

Harmonics. It has been proven that harmonics can have beneficial or destructive influence on physical objects.

Positive harmonics can bring balance and symmetry (order) from chaos.
Disharmony can be causal to symmetry breaking and the disordering into chaos.

When wave functions have symmetry reality is ordered and in balance. When wave functions are asymmetrical we have disorder and imbalance.
These states of order (comfort) and disorder (discomfort) are experienced by all physical objects.

In conscious orgnisms these states translate in physical experiences of comfort (in harmony) or discomfort (out of sorts) with reality.

Music is the purposeful ordering of harmonic soundwaves to elicit emotional experiences, not only in humans but in many other animals.

 

[exchemist]

Because we can reproduce and imitate the natural affinity and symmetry of self-ordering wave functions and natural harmonics with instruments tuned to wave-lengths audible to the human senses.
Personally, I played music for a living for 7 years .

Harmonics. It has been proven that harmonics can have beneficial or destructive influence on physical objects.

Positive harmonics can bring balance and symmetry (order) from chaos.
Disharmony can be causal to symmetry breaking and the disordering into chaos.


When wave functions have symmetry reality is ordered and in balance. When wave functions are asymmetrical we have disorder and imbalance.
These states of order (comfort) and disorder (discomfort) are experienced by all physical objects.

In conscious orgnisms these states translate in physical experiences of comfort (in harmony) or discomfort (out of sorts) with reality.

Music is the purposeful ordering of harmonic soundwaves to elicit emotional experiences, not only in humans but in many other animals.

All fermions have an antisymmetric wave function, which is why the Pauli Exclusion Principle applies to them. That includes all the common particles of matter (proton, neutrons, electrons). Bosons, e.g. photons, have symmetric wave functions.

 

[Write4U]

This may describe the phenomena of symmetry and order more formally.

A Semi-Harmonic Frequency Pattern Organizes Local and Non-Local States by Quantum Entanglement in both EPR-Studies and Life Systems
Hans J. H. Geesink1*, Dirk K. F. Meijer2

Abstract:

A novel biophysical principle: the GM-model was revealed, describing an algorithm for coherent and non-coherent electromagnetic (EM) frequencies that either sustain or deteriorate life conditions. The particular frequency bands could be mathematically positioned on a Pythagorean scale, based on information distribution according to ratios of 2:3 in 1:2. The particular scale exhibits a core pattern of twelve eigenfrequency functions with adjacent self-similar patterns, according to octave hierarchy. In view of the current interest in coherency and entanglement in quantum biology, in the present paper, we report on a meta-analysis of 60 papers in physics that deal with the influence of electromagnetic frequencies on the promotion of entangled states in, so called, EPR experiments.

Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen originated the EPR-correlation thought experiment for quantum-entangled particles, in which particles are supposed to react as one body. The meta-analyses of the EPR-experiments learned that entanglement, achieved in the experiments is real, and applied frequencies are located at discrete coherent configurations.

Strikingly, all analysed EPR-data of the independent studies fit precisely in the derived scale of coherent frequency data and turned out to be virtually congruent with the above mentioned semi-harmonic EM-scale for living organisms.
This implies that the same discrete coherent frequency pattern of EM quantum waves that determine local and non-local states is also applicable to biological order and that quantum entanglement is a prerequisite for life.

The study may indicate that the implicate order of pilot-wave steering system, earlier postulated by David Bohm is composed of discrete entangled EM wave modalities, related to a pervading zero-point energy information field.
more......

https://m.scirp.org/papers/83684

 

[arfa brane]

Music is the purposeful ordering of harmonic soundwaves to elicit emotional experiences, not only in humans but in many other animals.

And sound in music is classical waves. Humans aren't equipped to hear quantum probabilities, right?

 

[Write4U]

And sound in music is classical waves. Humans aren't equipped to hear quantum probabilities, right?

Roger Penrose seems to think the brain is able to process quantum data . That's what ORCH OR is all about.

And there is evidence that supports that concept.
It is proposed that microtubules are not only able to handle EM and EC data, they may be able to process qubits as well.
Considering the astounding versatility of microtubules I would not dismiss this notion out-of-hand.
Don't forget that microtubules themselves are nano-scale bi-directional processors and that is the domain where quantum becomes real, no?

 

[James R]

Don't forget that microtubules themselves are nano-scale bi-directional processors...

What exactly do they process? A process involves operating on an input to produce an output. What is the input, output and processing of a microtubule?

 

[Write4U]

What exactly do they process? A process involves operating on an input to produce an output. What is the input, output and processing of a microtubule?

What do neurons process? What do synapses process? What process takes place during mitosis?
What information does the cytoplasm and cytoskeleton of every living cell in a body process?

First; Microtubules regulate the heart beat!
IOW the autonomous pumping function of the heart is driven by microtubules!!!
How do they do that? Perhaps it is the same as how a single celled paramecium swims without a neural network.
Apparently, microtubules are able to function autonomously and that is astounding!

Microtubules’ role in heart cell contraction revealed

An organized network called the cytoskeleton helps cells maintain their shape and organization. Microtubules (MTs) are a major component of this cellular support structure. MTs can transmit mechanical signals and, like rods or struts, resist compression in contracting heart cells. How they perform these roles has been unclear.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih...otubules-role-heart-cell-contraction-revealed

Microtubules play a role in a host of other critical life sustaining functions via the neural network.

What Is the Autonomic Nervous System?

The autonomic nervous system regulates a variety of body process that takes place without conscious effort. The autonomic system is the part of the

peripheral nervous system that is responsible for regulating involuntary body functions, such as heartbeat, blood flow, breathing, and digestion.

Note that the interior of every axon that connects all neural cells, consists of arrays of microtubules. Axons may contain as many as 100 bundles of microtubules

It is estimated that the entire human body may contain:
27 varieties of MT and perhaps more than 100 trillion MT, all of them active in data processing of one kind or another.

Detail showing microtubules at axon hillock and initial segment.

More..........

 

[Write4U]

continued...

Microfilaments

Of the three types of protein fibers in the cytoskeleton, microfilaments are the narrowest. They have a diameter of about 7 nm and are made up of many linked monomers of a protein called actin, combined in a structure that resembles a double helix. Because they are made of actin monomers, microfilaments are also known as actin filaments. Actin filaments have directionality, meaning that they have two structurally different ends.

Actin filaments have a number of important roles in the cell. For one, they serve as tracks for the movement of a motor protein called myosin, which can also form filaments. Because of its relationship to myosin, actin is involved in many cellular events requiring motion.

Intermediate filaments

Intermediate filaments are a type of cytoskeletal element made of multiple strands of fibrous proteins wound together. As their name suggests, intermediate filaments have an average diameter of 8 to 10 nm, in between that of microfilaments and microtubules (discussed below).

Unlike actin filaments, which can grow and disassemble quickly, intermediate filaments are more permanent and play an essentially structural role in the cell. They are specialized to bear tension, and their jobs include maintaining the shape of the cell and anchoring the nucleus and other organelles in place.

Microtubules

Despite the “micro” in their name, microtubules are the largest of the three types of cytoskeletal fibers, with a diameter of about 25 nm. A microtubule is made up of tubulin proteins arranged to form a hollow, straw-like tube, and each tubulin protein consists of two subunits, α-tubulin and β-tubulin.
Microtubules, like actin filaments, are dynamic structures: they can grow and shrink quickly by the addition or removal of tubulin proteins. Also similar to actin filaments, microtubules have directionality, meaning that they have two ends that are structurally different from one another. In a cell, microtubules play an important structural role, helping the cell resist compression forces.

Left: 3D model of a microtubule, showing that it is a hollow cylinder of proteins. Right: Cartoon diagram of a microtubule, showing that it is made of two different types of subunits (alpha and beta). The subunits form dimers, and the dimers are connected in a spiral pattern to form the hollow tube of the microtubule.
Image credit: OpenStax Biology.

more.........

 

[Write4U]

continued......

In addition to providing structural support, microtubules play a variety of more specialized roles in a cell. For instance, they provide tracks for motor proteins called kinesins and dyneins, which transport vesicles and other cargoes around the interior of the cell^44start superscript, 4, end superscript. During cell division, microtubules assemble into a structure called the spindle, which pulls the chromosomes apart.

Flagella, cilia, and centrosomes

Microtubules are also key components of three more specialized eukaryotic cell structures: flagella, cilia and centrosomes. You may remember that our friends the prokaryotes also have structures that have flagella, which they use to move. Don't get confused—the eukaryotic flagella we're about to discuss have pretty much the same role, but a very different structure.

Flagella (singular, flagellum) are long, hair-like structures that extend from the cell surface and are used to move an entire cell, such as a sperm. If a cell has any flagella, it usually has one or just a few. Motile cilia (singular, cilium) are similar, but are shorter and usually appear in large numbers on the cell surface. When cells with motile cilia form tissues, the beating helps move materials across the surface of the tissue. For example, the cilia of cells in your upper respiratory system help move dust and particles out towards your nostrils.

Despite their difference in length and number, flagella and motile cilia share a common structural pattern. In most flagella and motile cilia, there are 9 pairs of microtubules arranged in a circle, along with an additional two microtubules in the center of the ring. This arrangement is called a 9 + 2 array. You can see the 9 + 2 array in the electron microscopy image at left, which shows two flagella in cross-section.

Upper: Transmission electron micrograph of flagella in cross-section, showing the 9+2 microtubule array organization.
Lower: Cartoon diagram of a motile cililum, showing the singlet microtubules in the center, the outer doublet microtubules arranged in a circle around the singlet microtubules, and the dyneins attached to the doublet microtubules. The whole structure is surrounded by plasma membrane. At the base of the cilium lies a basal body, which is also made up of microtubules.
_Image credits: upper panel, "The cytoskeleton: Figure 5," by OpenStax College, Biology (CC BY 3.0). Modification of work by Dartmouth Electron Microscope Facility, Dartmouth College; scale-bar data from Matt Russell. Lower panel, modification of "Eukaryotic cilium diagram," by Mariana Ruiz Villareal (public domain)._

In flagella and motile cilia, motor proteins called dyneins move along the microtubules, generating a force that causes the flagellum or cilium to beat. The structural connections between the microtubule pairs and the coordination of dynein movement allow the activity of the motors to produce a pattern of regular beating^{5,6}5,6start superscript, 5, comma, 6, end superscript.

You may notice another feature in the diagram above: the cilium or flagellum has a basal body located at its base. The basal body is made of microtubules and plays a key role in assembly of the cilium or flagellum. Once the structure has been assembled, it also regulates which proteins can enter or exit^77start superscript, 7, end superscript.

The basal
body is actually just a modified centriole^77start superscript, 7, end superscript. A centriole is a cylinder of nine triplets of microtubules, held together by supporting proteins. Centrioles are best known for their role in centrosomes, structures that act as microtubule organizing centers in animal cells. A centrosome consists of two centrioles oriented at right angles to each other, surrounded by a mass of "pericentriolar material," which provides anchoring sites for microtubules^88start superscript, 8, end superscript.

Image of a centrosome. The centrosome contains two centrioles positioned at right angles to each other.
Image credit: modification of "Centriole," by Kelvinsong (CC BY 3.0)

The centrosome is duplicated before a cell divides, and the paired centrosomes seem to play a role in organizing the microtubules that separate chromosomes during cell division. However, the exact function of the centrioles in this process still isn’t clear. Cells with their centrosome removed can still divide, and plant cells, which lack centrosomes, divide just fine.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...-a-cell/tour-of-organelles/a/the-cytoskeleton