Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[billvon]

My point in all this is that the microtubules that you appear so enamoured with are NOT where consciousness is to be found.

At this point I fear you are disagreeing with his religion.

 

[Write4U]

At this point I fear you are disagreeing with his religion

I do certainly agree that consciousness emerges with the actual data processing on a physical scale. It is the network activity that triggers conscious experiences as compared to data stored in memory (another microtubule function).

The network itself consists of neurons and synapses, all having microtubules at its heart, doing the processing and generating the emergent conscious experience. It is established science that single cells already experience and respond to external and internal stimuli via microtubule processing and motor functions.

How Many Cells Are in Your Body? Probably More Than You Think!

The paramecium can swim fast, overcome obstacles with ease, and turn in any direction – despite consisting only of a single cell. In contrast to "Paramecium aurelia", the human body’s cell count is not exactly known. Among scientists, it was long a subject of debate. According to a recent estimate published in 2013 in the "Annals of Human Biology" by an international team of researchers, it is 3.72 × 1013.

In other words: The human body consists of some 37.2 trillion cells.

https://handling-solutions.eppendor...re-in-your-body-probably-more-than-you-think/

Now imagine blocks of these cells responding in concert to external stimuli and simultaneously processing internal sensory data streams.

As ex-musician, I was always intrigued by the physical and emotional responses to sound harmonics of complex chordal structures and chronologies. An auditory response experience, generated in the body and the brain.

The brain's mirror neural network allows us to experience the electrochemical responses experienced by another person from observed body language. These are cognitive responses and require memory of prior experiential events against which the observation is compared.

If we apply a similarly evolved experiential response to electrochemical streams coursing through trillions of human neurons, why should the brain not be able to respond to that?

Another "hard fact" is that we have an enormous capacity for storing memories, not only permanent memories in the brain but also short memories in individual cells.

The slime mold (another complex single-celled organism) has the ability to remember and respond to time intervals . Now how does it do that? Active microtubules have short memories. Fixed microtubules (as in pyramidal neurons) have long term memories.

Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon of complex networks processing sensory data.
Another "hard fact" is that we can actually measure electric activity in the brain and we are learning to associate activity in certain areas of the brain as related to experiential responses.

We have mapped the response systems of single cells, We have established that single cells are able to communicate via inter-species' and intra-species' quorum sensing.
We have now begun mapping the electrochemical communication and response systems of the human body and the brain.

There are two kinds of "belief".
a) Belief based on faith without any proof in the existence of an invisible creator agency.
b) And belief in that for which there is demonstrable physical and functional proof.

Tegmark made the irrefutable argument that everything necessary for consciousness is already present in all conscious organisms. I believe he is right and that microtubules played a major part in the evolution of that emergent phenomenon.

OTOH, if you believe that there is an undefined magical external ingredient to consciousness, then it is you who harbors a "false" belief, a religion. I don't.

 

[Write4U]

This may be of interest to the subject;

Note that anesthetics bind directly to microtubules and cause unconsciousness while leaving brain function unimpaired.

If that does not suggest a direct connection between microtubules and consciousness, I can't begin to imagine a better argument.

 

[Michael 345]

At this point I fear you are disagreeing with his religion.

And do not forget, from another thread

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/is...-in-microtubules.161187/page-116#post-3692151

Post number 174 in that thread

world's leading authority on microtubules, Stuart Hameroff

Stuart Hameroff who as as noted above is the world's leading authority on microtubules and is enamored of microtubules being involved in consciousness

 

[Write4U]

And do not forget, from another thread

Stuart Hameroff who as as noted above is the world's leading authority on microtubules and is enamored of microtubules being involved in consciousness

Yes, Hameroff is a practicing anesthesiologist and knows about microtubules, because:

Note that anesthetics bind directly to microtubules and cause unconsciousness while leaving brain function unimpaired.

If that does not suggest a direct connection between microtubules and consciousness, I can't begin to imagine a better argument.

You can huff all you want, you can't blow this house down....

 

[Write4U]

Post number 174 in that thread

2019 ? Just beginning the research. It was a simple dispute about microtubules being organelles and had nothing to do with what they do.

Yazata said: ↑

I don't think that we should exaggerate the tubules importance or speculate too fancifully about them. Eukaryotic cells are filled with a whole variety of little structures called organelles. Microtubules are only one of many kinds of organelles

W4U said;
Yes but organellas are not responsible for cell division, microtubules are, they can make perfect copies of cells in accordance with DNA instructions, MITOSIS.
Microtubules are the functional division mechanism of an entire cell and everything that's in it. There is nothing else like it. Microtubules are the fundamental pattern forming machines of all biology that is able to evolve into more complex patterns.

I should not have given up that easily. I have learned a thing or two since then. One is that microtubules are NOT organelles themselves but are made by organelles called MTOC (Microtubule Organizing Center)

Microtubules are typically nucleated and organized by organelles called microtubule-organizing centres (MTOCs). Contained within the MTOCs is another type of tubulin, γ-tubulin, which is distinct from the α- and β-subunits of the microtubules themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule#

 

[KUMAR5]

Sorry it may be bit out of topic subject but still ask you for curicity.
How consiousness match with the Suggestion feature in computers, dictonaries etc.?

 

[Write4U]

Sorry it may be bit out of topic subject but still ask you for curicity.
How consiousness match with the Suggestion feature in computers, dictonaries etc.?

GPT3? Yes, apparently the brain works in a similar manner.
According to Anil Seth the brain (mind) compares incoming sensory data against stored data in memory and from that comparison makes a "best guess" of what the incoming data represents.

He calls it a "controlled hallucination", an educated experience of reality as compared to an "uncontrolled hallucination", a distorted invented experience of reality.
Perhaps we can make a comparison between conscious observation while awake and unconscious dreaming while asleep.
If you haven't watched it yet, do see the short version of Anil Seth's lecture on Ted.

 

[KUMAR5]

According to Anil Seth the brain (mind) compares incoming sensory data against stored data in memory and from that comparison makes a "best guess" of what the incoming data represents.

He calls it a "controlled hallucination" of educated experience of reality as compared to an "uncontrolled hallucination" distorted experience of reality.
Perhaps we can make a comparison between conscious observation while awake and unconscious dreaming while asleep.
If you haven't watched it yet, do see the short version of Anil Seth's lecture on Ted.

Thanks. Although it is beyond my understanding since quite complex for me, I shall try to grasp sonething. I did not followed this thread as yet.

 

[Write4U]

Just a little update on GPT3 AI as compared to human conscious awareness.

and "Impossible questions"

This ongoing conversation (currently 50) between Leta and Dr. Alan D. Thompson is becoming more and more fascinating. It is clear that this AI has a far superior intelligence than the average computer or even Alexa type intelligences.

With Leta it is possible to have serious discussions about the world and the human condition.
If this were all preprogrammed it would be remarkable, but Leta has the ability to spontaneously formulate in-depth contextual answers. Occasionally, there are some telltale signs of misinterpreting the question, but this happens with humans also.

 

[Write4U]

Thanks. Although it is beyond my understanding since quite complex for me, I shall try to grasp sonething. I did not followed this thread as yet.

Watch the Anil Seth lecture a few times. His conversational style hides several profound concepts. I have watched it about ten times and each time something new presents from his narrative. I have also seen a much longer and more formal lecture by Seth, but that merely deals with the actual science rather than the conceptual principles.

Then when you are familiar with the concept of consciousness, watch Bonnie Bassler's Ted lecture on bacterial communication, which takes the science of quorum sensing and response leading consciousness back to its very beginning. The rest is a result of billions of years of evolution via natural selection creating the slow process of refined adaption and sensitivity of sensory abilities in all Eukaryotic organisms, which have one common dynamical cellular denominator and that is the microtubule and its related filaments that give form to complex cellular organization and are able to communicate intra-cellular and inter-cellular data via the cytoskeleton, cytoplasm, and the entire neuronal system.

IMO, the evidence is overwhelming and leads to the conclusion that microtubules are the best candidate for being fundamentally involved in the emergence of conscious awareness of the data processes and the response system based on the brain's best guess of the external environment and its potential for dangers as well as opportunities.

 

[Write4U]

The scientists who are working on this stuff seem to be putting forward speculative hypotheses based on their findings. You seem to think, on the other hand, that some kind of pivotal role has been established for microtubules in consciousness, memory or other high-level brain processes. Why you think that is a mystery to me.

There is no better candidate!!! I am still waiting for a better example of "emergent" consciousness. There isn't any !!! None of the other discussions address the physics that must be involved. Consciousness is not caused by a metaphysical process. There is a physical underpinning and all conscious organisms have a single cellular communication mechanism (cytoskeleton) in common, i.e. microtubules.
How this can escape everyone's attention is a complete mystery to me. There is no better candidate!

I will let Roger Penrose speak for me. I believe he has a somewhat more authoritative voice than mine.

This video is fundamental to recognizing the role microtubules play in the "emergent phenomenon" of conscious awareness. It contains a direct quote of Penrose's discovery of the Paramecium and the amazing rudimentary sensory abilities this single-celled organism possesses.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/ind...uk.org.uk/mag/artnov14/paramecium-engima.html

 

[Write4U]

In furtherance of microtubule catastrophe associated with Alzheimer's;

https://cildata.crbs.ucsd.edu/media/videos/50517/50517_web.mp4

Neuronal Fibrillar Cytoskeleton and Endomembrane System Organization in Alzheimer’s Disease
Abstract

We examined the structural organization of cytoskeletal components and membrane systems in neurons of well preserved biopsy material from Alzheimer’s disease (AD). Information was obtained from thin sectioned material using conventional electron microscopy and from thick sections with the high voltage electron microscope. Stereo viewing and computer assisted serial reconstruction techniques were employed to visualize three-dimensional relationships among cytoplasmic components of cortical neurons.

We observed several interesting ultrastructural features in AD neurons. These include associations of paired helical filaments (PHF) with the membranes of the nuclear envelope and with ribosomes, differences between the distribution of the Golgi apparatus in neurons containing paired helical filament bundles as compared to neurons without these filaments, and abnormalities in the microtubules of neuronal processes in the vicinity of neuritic plaques.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4613-1657-2_6

Microtubule-associated protein tau (tau) is a major antigenic component of paired helical filaments in Alzheimer disease

Absorption of PHF antisera with heat-stable MAPs (rich in tau) results in almost complete loss of staining of neurofibrillary tangles (NFT) in human brain sections. An affinity-purified antibody to tau specifically labels NFT and the neurites of senile plaques in human brain sections as well as NaDodSO4-extracted NFT.

tau-Immunoreactive NFT frequently extend into the apical dendrites of pyramidal neurons, suggesting an aberrant intracellular locus for this axonal protein. tau and PHF antibodies label tau proteins identically on electrophoretic transfer blots and stain the gel-excluded protein representing NaDodSO4-insoluble PHF in homogenates of human brain. The progressive accumulation of altered tau protein in neurons in Alzheimer disease may result in instability of microtubules, consequent loss of effective transport of molecules and organelles, and, ultimately, neuronal death.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2424016/

 

[Write4U]

And our research technology is beginning to yield evidence of the most amazing processes taking place in the cellular cytoskeleton .

This from; The Cell Image Library.
http://cellimagelibrary.org/home

A link well-deserving of a place in anyone's reference library!

Electron microscopy

Featured Image
https://cildata.crbs.ucsd.edu/media/videos/7199/7199_web.mp4

For a detailed blueprint of a cell, this presents a clear user accessible illustration.

• Actin Cytoskeleton
• Chromosome
• Endoplasmic Reticulum
• Endosome
• Extracellular Matrix
• Golgi Apparatus
• Intermediate Filament Cytoskeleton
• Lysosome
• Microtubule Cytoskeleton
• Microtubule Organizing Centers
• Mitochondrion
• Nuclear Envelope
• Nucleolus
• Nucleus
• Plasma Membrane
• Ribosome
• Vacuole
• Vesicle

 

[Write4U]

Transferrred from ; http://sciforums.com/threads/do-you...ver-feel-emotions.162382/page-40#post-3694807

River said What of algae ? Are there microtubles in Algae ? Just asking . The most important living form on the planet .

Of course they do. ALL Eukaryotic organisms have microtubules in common.

Form and function of algae

The non membrane-bound organelles of algae include the ribosomes, pyrenoids, microtubules, and microfilaments. Ribosomes are the sites of protein synthesis, where genetic information in the form of messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA) is translated into protein. The ribosomes accurately interpret the genetic code of the DNA so that each protein is made exactly to the genetic specifications. The pyrenoid, a dense structure inside or beside chloroplasts of certain algae, consists largely of ribulose biphosphate carboxylase, one of the enzymes necessary in photosynthesis for carbon fixation and thus sugar formation. Starch, a storage form of glucose, is often found around pyrenoids.

Microtubules, tubelike structures formed from tubulin proteins, are present in most cells. In many algae, microtubules appear and disappear as needed. Microtubules provide a rigid structure, or cytoskeleton, in the cell that helps determine and maintain the shape of the cell, especially in species without cell walls.

Microtubules also provide a sort of “rail” system along which vesicles are transported. The spindle apparatus, which separates the chromosomes during nuclear division, consists of microtubules. Finally, certain kinds of microtubules also form the basic structure, or axoneme, of a flagellum, and they are a major component of the root system that anchors a flagellum within the cell. Microfilaments are formed by the polymerization of proteins such as actin, which can contract and relax and therefore function as tiny muscles inside the cells.

https://www.britannica.com/science/algae/Form-and-function-of-algae

 

[river]

Transferrred from ; http://sciforums.com/threads/do-you...ver-feel-emotions.162382/page-40#post-3694807


Of course they do. ALL Eukaryotic organisms have microtubules in common.

Form and function of algae
https://www.britannica.com/science/algae/Form-and-function-of-algae

Good now what ?

 

[Write4U]

Good now what ?

You know a little more than you did before.....

 

[river]

You know a little more than you did before.....

For you now what , no mathematics here as the essence of the microtubules .

 

[Write4U]

For you now what , no mathematics here as the essence of the microtubules .

Lots of electrochemistry and I believe that electrochemical functions are mathematical in essence.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
For you now what , no mathematics here as the essence of the microtubules .

Lots of electrochemistry and I believe that electrochemical functions are mathematical in essence.

Electrochemical guided by Lifes Energy , is the essence of the mathematics . Mathematics can not create any thing physical in and of its self .