If there were a just God

[786]

Has anyone defined "just" yet?

No... and I think this goes on to show that "just" or "evil" are both relative terms and thus can not be defined but only generalized.

Peace be unto you

 

[(Q)]

Maybe you are right. Does that make it the truth? You can't test the whole theist population for dementia...so what, are we to take your word that theists are demented?

The blabberings of the prideful theists are infuriating sometimes, but that doesn't qualify for dementia.

No, but their beliefs in the invisible and undetectable certainly do qualify them. It is their actions resulting from those beliefs that make them dangerous.

 

[(Q)]

You are deflecting, you still have not offered any rebuttal of Lori's statement that theists and atheists suffer from the same affliction.

Who cares where the word atheist came from, most people know what it means today.

It has little if any meaning at all. The fact that theists have created this word to alienate those who DON'T believe in their fairy tales is just another cog in their intolerant cult machines.

 

[S.A.M.]

It has little if any meaning at all. The fact that theists have created this word to alienate those who DON'T believe in their fairy tales is just another cog in their intolerant cult machines.

Whats your current self definition?

 

[(Q)]

Whats your current self definition?

Do I have to have one? What difference will it make? I can call myself a Christian, Jew or Muslim if I want. Or, I can call myself an orange or banana.

The fact is that the various cults, all of who detest the other cults or anyone who doesn't follow that cult, require labeling based on their belief system so as to add come validity to it and to continue to make sure they conquer and divide mankind into those cult sects.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah so you are an a-cultist.

 

[(Q)]

Good one, but no, I am not an a-cultist, just like I'm not an a-unicornist or a-leprechaunist.

 

[S.A.M.]

You rail against them too? Life must be hard when you consider yourself alienated from leprechauns and unicorns.

 

[(Q)]

You rail against them too? Life must be hard when you consider yourself alienated from leprechauns and unicorns.

Life is good. It would be a whole lot better without cults fucking everything up, of course.

Sorry, but I have to go feed my unicorns a few tasty leprechauns, or was the other way round? :shrug:

 

[Michael]

No, actually the OP suggested that "IF there were a just God", which assume there is a God but then the OP shows that the "evil" in this world would prove that God couldn't possibly exist.

So basically the OP tried to prove the non-existence of God by assuming that the existence of God is "just" which would contradict what we witness in this world. And so I presented an argument where both God and Him being Just are not contradicting the world we see and thus nullifying his argument against God. (You have to understand I'm presenting the opposite view of the OP, as I don't agree with him)

I guess it really depends on how you interpret the question.

Peace be unto you

Not really, what I propose is that IF there is a just god THEN only you exist alone with it. Any harm that comes to anyone else is an illusion. Any harm that happens to you is done by the God specifically to you. For whatever reasons we as of yet do not know.

Does it feel disconcerting to think you are alone in reality with only God as your companion? A god who you can never understand. Just the two of you alone for eternity. I personaly think it would be creepy.

 

[Michael]

Let’s assume – just for the sake of offering you a viable scenario to reject your claim – that:
1. There is a God.
2. He is in a Heaven.
3. We have eternal souls.
4. This Heaven is an eternal Paradise where our eternal, non-corporeal souls exist devoid of pain and suffering.

Now…
If our souls are eternal, they have always existed. I don’t think it is entirely unreasonable to assume (for the sake of this scenario) that our souls elected to come to live this physical existence.
What do we have that eternal paradise is lacking?
Sensual experience.
Risk.
Emotional experience.
Excitement.
We can touch, taste, smell, see, hear and feel here.

Why do people ride roller coasters and go to scary movies?


By the way - without evil, does "justice" even hold any meaning?


Wrong.
Why is hard work hard?
Why is suffering painful?
You extoll the virtues of both of these, so you recognize their reason for being, but you want there to be some internal switch to keep people from using the same to take advantage of or harm others?
That would not be free will, would it?
You can't have it both ways.
Either suffering and free will exists, or we live in a sterile, synthetic universe.

Pain exists because pleasure exists - what we do with these two things is our choice.
The "justice" built into that equation is that we suffer if we choose to do wrong.

There are different levels of suffering. I'd say you would have a lot less free will where you to live your entire life strapped to a tortures wall NEVER having had the chance to learn, to read, to love. Only to exist in pain. That's the reality for some people.

So again, yes, struggle can equal accomplishment and appreciation. Living life tortured doesn't.

 

[Michael]

misuse of free will? I really don't see how this addresses the points in the OP LG? Elaborate please.

 

[Michael]

Ah I see. There is an argument going on here, but beyond a lot of angry people insisting their right to define everyone else's version of heaven, I don't see much progress.

What would a just God look like? Would everyone perform Kumbaya endlessly until they died of boredom? No wait death =bad. So not allowed to die.

What would be the value of such an existence? Perhaps a mass lobotomy would generate the same feeling?

Ahhh, since I opened the thread I will give my definition of just for this debate.

A just god is a god that does not allow babies to suffer by being cut open with scissors and raped. I feel I have free will and this has never happened to me, so, making the assumption God can do anything, then a just God can create a reality where such HEINOUS suffering CAN NOT EXIST.

 

[786]

Ahhh, since I opened the thread I will give my definition of just for this debate.

A just god is a god that does not allow babies to suffer by being cut open with scissors and raped. I feel I have free will and this has never happened to me, so, making the assumption God can do anything, then a just God can create a reality where such HEINOUS suffering CAN NOT EXIST.

I think because you defined "just" purposefully "after-the-fact", this debate is useless. You should've left some room on that definition

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Not really, what I propose is that IF there is a just god THEN only you exist alone with it. Any harm that comes to anyone else is an illusion. Any harm that happens to you is done by the God specifically to you. For whatever reasons we as of yet do not know.

Does it feel disconcerting to think you are alone in reality with only God as your companion? A god who you can never understand. Just the two of you alone for eternity. I personaly think it would be creepy.

Can you please expand a little more on this argument because I fail to see the transition.... ya I know I'm stupid

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Ahhh, since I opened the thread I will give my definition of just for this debate.

A just god is a god that does not allow babies to suffer by being cut open with scissors and raped.

What if babies were treated with carcinogens and then cut open so they could be used as test subjects in a study aimed at curing cancer? Baby rats I mean?

Is that kind of suffering okay?

 

[Lori_7]

What if they're inside the womb instead of outside? Then is it ok to cut them up with scissors?

 

[Michael]

I think because you defined "just" purposefully "after-the-fact", this debate is useless. You should've left some room on that definition

Peace be unto you

No, I have had this same debate many times. I always define God in such a way when I have this debate.

 

[Michael]

Can you please expand a little more on this argument because I fail to see the transition.... ya I know I'm stupid

Peace be unto you

If God is just then It wouldn't allow children to be so horribly mutilated and raped as it is within It's power to stop such heinous acts of violence. If we accept this is true, and God is just, then we can conclude these acts don't really take place. They are illusions.

 

[Michael]

What if babies were treated with carcinogens and then cut open so they could be used as test subjects in a study aimed at curing cancer? Baby rats I mean?

Is that kind of suffering okay?

That suffering is also illusion.