If there were a just God
- Thread starter Michael
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and She could have made a Universe where the possibility of such things happening can not exist.
Originally Posted by spidergoat
What about things like natural disasters? If God could prevent it and doesn't, he's evil.
what would the world be like if gods presence were here and preventing all the disasters and child molesters and anything else that was painfull...
i dont think we have to look far to answer that question..just look at all the spoiled rotten rich kids..our society would be in pretty sad shape..
of course that is still assuming we will still get to make our own choices..
god created us to make our own choices..hence the apple in the garden..to see if he succeeded in giving us free will..
as far as judgement day...what do you think would happen after he said 'go forth and multiply'?
What about things like natural disasters? If God could prevent it and doesn't, he's evil.
what would the world be like if gods presence were here and preventing all the disasters and child molesters and anything else that was painfull...
i dont think we have to look far to answer that question..just look at all the spoiled rotten rich kids..our society would be in pretty sad shape..
of course that is still assuming we will still get to make our own choices..
god created us to make our own choices..hence the apple in the garden..to see if he succeeded in giving us free will..
as far as judgement day...what do you think would happen after he said 'go forth and multiply'?
This answer is contradictory. You are claiming that man or society determines the consequence, and that is not true. As you state, society fails in this regard. But in the real consequence, god does not fail. The real consequence is realized, thank god, despite society or mankind's egotistical efforts.
Wasn't Eden just such a place? Isn't Heaven just such a place?
We could be plants. We could reproduce via budding. All sorts of things could be done differently. We could be universes with people living in us too - you know, for perspective. God can do anything so it's a snap making you into your own universe.
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given that the spark that drives the individuality of all living entities is individually eternal, what is the exact problems you have with suffering in the material world?
alternatively it could simply be temporary ... or more specifically, complexities arise when one ascribes eternal values to temporary things.
I take it this is the beer talking
There is nothing wrong with suffering as in taking on a challenge and working towards a goal against some odds. There is something horribly wrong when a man cuts open a baby with a knife so he can penetrate his rape. Wouldn't you agree LG? That any God that could allow such suffering is a Monster?
I'd like to see the rational on why a God would allow such a thing to happen to a baby - and don't give me Freewill bullshit excuse. A God that can do anything can allow a being to have freewill and not being able to rape a child.
perhaps if they had the possibility of escaping the incumbent karma
So once again, given that the spark that drives the individuality of all living entities is individually eternal, what is the exact problems you have with suffering in the material world?
no more than god can manifest a married bachelor or a square circle
:shrug:
What do you mean, what exact problems do I have? I just listed an exact problem. Of course as there are no Gods I see it as our collective humanity to try and rectify problems.
You are saying God can not make a world where people have freewill AND children can not be raped or harmed? Is such heinous suffering linked with freewill? Without being raped as a child LG never had freewill?
You are saying God can not make a world where people have freewill AND children can not be raped or harmed? Is such heinous suffering linked with freewill? Without being raped as a child LG never had freewill?
No, actually the OP suggested that "IF there were a just God", which assume there is a God but then the OP shows that the "evil" in this world would prove that God couldn't possibly exist.
So basically the OP tried to prove the non-existence of God by assuming that the existence of God is "just" which would contradict what we witness in this world. And so I presented an argument where both God and Him being Just are not contradicting the world we see and thus nullifying his argument against God. (You have to understand I'm presenting the opposite view of the OP, as I don't agree with him)
I guess it really depends on how you interpret the question.
Peace be unto you
Let’s assume – just for the sake of offering you a viable scenario to reject your claim – that:
1. There is a God.
2. He is in a Heaven.
3. We have eternal souls.
4. This Heaven is an eternal Paradise where our eternal, non-corporeal souls exist devoid of pain and suffering.
Now…
If our souls are eternal, they have always existed. I don’t think it is entirely unreasonable to assume (for the sake of this scenario) that our souls elected to come to live this physical existence.
What do we have that eternal paradise is lacking?
Sensual experience.
Risk.
Emotional experience.
Excitement.
We can touch, taste, smell, see, hear and feel here.
Why do people ride roller coasters and go to scary movies?
By the way - without evil, does "justice" even hold any meaning?
Wrong.
Why is hard work hard?
Why is suffering painful?
You extoll the virtues of both of these, so you recognize their reason for being, but you want there to be some internal switch to keep people from using the same to take advantage of or harm others?
That would not be free will, would it?
You can't have it both ways.
Either suffering and free will exists, or we live in a sterile, synthetic universe.
Pain exists because pleasure exists - what we do with these two things is our choice.
The "justice" built into that equation is that we suffer if we choose to do wrong.
1. There is a God.
2. He is in a Heaven.
3. We have eternal souls.
4. This Heaven is an eternal Paradise where our eternal, non-corporeal souls exist devoid of pain and suffering.
Now…
If our souls are eternal, they have always existed. I don’t think it is entirely unreasonable to assume (for the sake of this scenario) that our souls elected to come to live this physical existence.
What do we have that eternal paradise is lacking?
Sensual experience.
Risk.
Emotional experience.
Excitement.
We can touch, taste, smell, see, hear and feel here.
Why do people ride roller coasters and go to scary movies?
By the way - without evil, does "justice" even hold any meaning?
Wrong.
Why is hard work hard?
Why is suffering painful?
You extoll the virtues of both of these, so you recognize their reason for being, but you want there to be some internal switch to keep people from using the same to take advantage of or harm others?
That would not be free will, would it?
You can't have it both ways.
Either suffering and free will exists, or we live in a sterile, synthetic universe.
Pain exists because pleasure exists - what we do with these two things is our choice.
The "justice" built into that equation is that we suffer if we choose to do wrong.
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sure, but you haven't expressed it in relation to the given about eternality.
"try" being the operative word
Heinous suffering is linked with misuse of free will.
At the moment you can't see that because you probably assume a 2 year old child is only drawing the totality of their reactions from 2 years of life (which is why I asked at the onset, given that the spark that drives the individuality of all living entities is individually eternal, what is the exact problems you have with suffering in the material world?
Exactly what I was trying to say.
Beyond this, if suffering and free will exists and there is a god as you have described, how can we not question the character of god because it does not explain or console in the way we need? How can it be safe to assume that the god is not malevolent or unjust for standing by on idle, and yet still call it our friend?
One could say that is what we have scripture for, it tells us why things are the way they are. Assuming it was proven that god existed, is the scripture enough of an explanation?
I guess it depends exactly what one's idea of suitable godly intervention would be versus infringing on free will.
IOW suppose someone (by dint of their free will) decides to act grossly inappropriately.
What would you suggest god do?
depends what clue from scripture one gets to determine god's position, the position of the living entity and the resultant obligations.
I'll take some free will, and even evil if it seemed someone was really looking out for us. Unfortunately, I see no evidence of this. Events look just as they would if they were undirected. I have not been involved in any natural disaster of consequence, many people have not, are they somehow less developed? The idea that we need pain and hardship and God lovingly grants us that to better our character is perverse.
At the very least told us not to fret about what seems unjust, and to trust him. The Bible says this. So, if God were real and it appeared to be the same God talked about in the Bible, I would have faith.
So again, this discussion is going nowhere because it assumes that God is real. If God were real, we'd not be having this discussion.
The keyword is living, of course.
So, I guess if God from the Bible were real, I guess I would judge him as just in the face of calamity, needless death, and murder.
The only problem I have with that is man that is a lot of trust to put in something. I mean what if it was an elaborate scheme by a god to control its creation. Well, at that point, we would be oblivious to right and wrong, so it doesn't matter. At the point we have complete trust in God, there is no longer right and wrong, but only God's way or not (from our perspective).
Reality check! Good point.
I think even if there is a creator God, I see no reason to believe this God is "looking after" us.
An argument for the Deist point of view is not an argument against the existence of a God.
If I were God, I would judge man by these things.
Correct, just the Christian God. The one that cares about what we do, punishes for sin. The Deist God is not something anyone needs to supplicate to.