If Jesus died for our sins

[jpappl]

Lori,

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
Lori,



It's not a contradicition because I am not saying we will achieve some sort of perfection in our behavior. But it could possiby be done with drugs. Nice eh. ”

UGH!!! i HATE this mentality that is so ingrained into our society nowadays. no, don't solve the problem, just treat the symptoms indefinitely with drugs.

do you work for a pharmaceutical company or something?

the very fact that you're suggesting drugs is contradictory to the rest of what you're saying as well. that the problem is within us, not outside of us.

I agree, and I never suggested that it would be a paradise, far from it.

I was merely pointing out a way that we could get everyone to conform all the live long day. Of course there would be no religion or anything else to fight about.

No it's not contradictory because I have said that we are what we are, should we take drugs so that we can all get along perfectly. Hell no. But that doesn't mean in some far distant future that we cure mis-behavior with them.

So why do some sin more than others, why aren't we all criminals etc. ”

that's just relative and self-indulgent bullshit right there. if you think that right and wrong are determined by the government...i don't even know what to say.

What, my point was, if we were all inherently bad and environmental factors were no important then we would all be equally or at least close to being as bad as the next guy, but what we find is there are all levels of people, some worse then others.

“ Are you suggesting that environmental factors have no affect on us. That a child that is raised in an abusive situation is not affected by that abuse. ”

no. i'm just saying that's not what sin is. that is an outcome of sin though. if we weren't flawed, no one would suffer abuse.

Sure, but what is the source of our flaws ? Millions of years of survival, it ain't pretty.

“ What I am saying is that what is natural to us is not sinful. It's precisely who we are. ”

and who we are is affected by an inherent condition called sin.

It's nature. It has evolved in us over time, it's our natural acts. Call it what you want but it's just who we are.

“ What are some of the sins suggested in the bible ? ”

greed, lust, gluttony, sloth, envy, pride, wrath. are those punished by the government? lol...

Do you not believe that humans could develop greedy behavior while fighting over a deer carcass, this is my point these things were necessary for our very survival and they have served us very well. Envy, pride, wrath, these are all survival mechanisms. Unfortunately, there is a lot of hurt in the world caused by these actions, again nobody said it was pretty. In fact, our past is downright ugly.

But there have been great strides made for humanity and humans have evolved their thinking.

“ I know you believe the story, but do you realize that thousands and thousands of people were crucified. What makes this person, who crossed the wrong people special. They created this story and now we ignore all the contradictions in the story. ”

that he was born without this condition called sin. that's it!

So Jesus never sinned ? Sure. No envy, no pride ever.

“ But the bible is asking us to not act in accordance with nature or our instincts. ”

so. i can certainly testify that a little self-control goes a long way where i'm concerned. i don't want to be greedy, or lustful, or envious, or full of pride, or gluttonous, or lazy, or full of wrath. and it's safe to say the other people around me don't want me to be either.

why do we need discipline? why is discipline a good thing?

Yep your evolved. We need discipline to follow rules, written and unwritten with how we relate to others and how we carry ourselves.

It's hard to imagine what our society might be like in 1000 years. Like I said, we could get to some point where we use drugs to control everyone, who knows. ”

the thought of that disgusts me.

Me too. I would much rather have some bad in the world then to be a bunch of brainwashed robots.

“ But where I disagree with you is that we are inherently bad. We have discussed this at length before and I understand your position, I just don't agree with you on the reason we are the way we are. ”

we are good and bad. we ate from the tree of good and evil, and so now we experience both. i want good. i don't want bad. this is what i've learned from my experience.

Maybe in 1000 years or 10,000 more.

“ I am suggesting and there is a mountain of evidence to support me, that we evolved over millions of years to become exactly what we are now, and we will continue to evolve to something else to some degree in 1000 years and beyond. What that exactly will be nobody knows. That is our story with evidence. The rest are just stories.

This also is not suggesting there is or was never a god. But if god created the universe, then we were mean't to evolve and let what happens happen. That is where the evidence points.

It does not point to any religious text version of creation and nor does it provide any evidence there was or is a god, other than we don't know how it all started. ”

the whole story of christ is about an evolution, from one age into the next. a new generation of mankind will be created from the first fruits of this one. and i will be one of those people.

That is the story, but there is nothing to suggest any of it occured for the reasons claimed in the bible.

The evidence is that we evolved. Avoiding that is like stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime. The dollar being we evolved. The dime the stories of men at a time who knew virtually nothing about our world and where we started.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

If someone leaves a load of illegal drugs in your car, and you somehow get caught by the authorities, then you will be classed as a drug dealer unless you can prove otherwise.

I may be classed as a drug dealer but at least one of us would know I am not. The truth is just obscured.

Baby's guilty of sin because of their association with adults, I wonder who dreamed that one up? Somehow this has been incorporated into modern religion and it causes me to pause and think for a minute..... could the guilt of children by association be one of the main reasons for early indoctrination? IOW there is urgency attached to it, as if to save an innocent child's soul from the God you so revere. If this is the religion's case then why is the insanity of it all unrecognized by its practitioners?

 

[Lori_7]

Lori,



I agree, and I never suggested that it would be a paradise, far from it.

I was merely pointing out a way that we could get everyone to conform all the live long day. Of course there would be no religion or anything else to fight about.

No it's not contradictory because I have said that we are what we are, should we take drugs so that we can all get along perfectly. Hell no. But that doesn't mean in some far distant future that we cure mis-behavior with them.

if the cause of misbehavior is inherent, then how will we do that? a 12 step program, a new religion, a new government, a new drug? we will still be suffering...fighting that which is within us.

What, my point was, if we were all inherently bad and environmental factors were no important then we would all be equally or at least close to being as bad as the next guy, but what we find is there are all levels of people, some worse then others.

honestly, i think that is very subjective and self indulgent. all of us are looking for someone else's sin to be worse than our own, and not one of us walks in another's shoes. that is why the bible says that only god is fit to judge, not us.

Sure, but what is the source of our flaws ? Millions of years of survival, it ain't pretty.



It's nature. It has evolved in us over time, it's our natural acts. Call it what you want but it's just who we are.

the same flaws were there then, and are still here now. nothing has changed except the means to control/inhibit them.

Do you not believe that humans could develop greedy behavior while fighting over a deer carcass, this is my point these things were necessary for our very survival and they have served us very well. Envy, pride, wrath, these are all survival mechanisms. Unfortunately, there is a lot of hurt in the world caused by these actions, again nobody said it was pretty. In fact, our past is downright ugly.

But there have been great strides made for humanity and humans have evolved their thinking.

greed is taking more than you need regardless of the expense of someone else. that actually inhibits survival. and there is nothing about envy, pride, or wrath that perpetuate survival...they actually inhibit it in regards to the greater good. greed is when on the same planet some people are starving to death while some are spending millions on jewelry and other luxuries. envy, pride, and wrath, are offenses, not defenses.

So Jesus never sinned ? Sure. No envy, no pride ever.

that's the word.

Yep your evolved. We need discipline to follow rules, written and unwritten with how we relate to others and how we carry ourselves.

and if there wasn't something inherently wrong with us, we wouldn't.

Me too. I would much rather have some bad in the world then to be a bunch of brainwashed robots.

i'd just rather have the good, and do away with the bad. why isn't that a possibility?

Maybe in 1000 years or 10,000 more.

no one knows when.

That is the story, but there is nothing to suggest any of it occured for the reasons claimed in the bible.

The evidence is that we evolved. Avoiding that is like stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime. The dollar being we evolved. The dime the stories of men at a time who knew virtually nothing about our world and where we started.

there is a lesson in the bible that people ignore while they're trying to pick up money, or be right, or whatever.

it's about seeing the forrest through the trees. people don't want to see the forrest, so they argue about the trees.

 

[Jan Ardena]

PsychoticEpisode,

I may be classed as a drug dealer but at least one of us would know I am not. The truth is just obscured.

But your life would change, and you would change with it, due to this
association.

Baby's guilty of sin because of their association with adults, I wonder who dreamed that one up?

You don't have to be, or feel guilty to go down the tubes, the analogy
shows that. In alot of cases people feel great about their wretched situation.

Somehow this has been incorporated into modern religion and it causes me to pause and think for a minute..... could the guilt of children by association be one of the main reasons for early indoctrination?

Regarding "indoctrination" there is a difference between teaching your child
about the world as you see it, and teaching them a belief, doctrine, or ideology, thoroughly and systematically, with the intention of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions.

jan.

IOW there is urgency attached to it, as if to save an innocent child's soul from the God you so revere. If this is the religion's case then why is the insanity of it all unrecognized by its practitioners?

I don't know what "religions case" is, assuming you are refering to the institutes. It could be any political or social thing.

 

[GeoffP]

PsychoticEpisode,



Transgression of law is not a religious conduct.



It's more a case of sin by association.

If someone leaves a load of illegal drugs in your car, and you somehow
get caught by the authorities, then you will be classed as a drug dealer unless you can prove otherwise.

jan.

Well, I think God would be able to guess at the real circumstances behind such a thing a little better than Judge Wapner.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Well, I think God would be able to guess at the real circumstances behind such a thing a little better than Judge Wapner.

There's no need to invoke God, the judgement is the natural reaction.

jan.

 

[GeoffP]

It's God's judgement.

 

[jpappl]

Lori,

“ Do you not believe that humans could develop greedy behavior while fighting over a deer carcass, this is my point these things were necessary for our very survival and they have served us very well. Envy, pride, wrath, these are all survival mechanisms. Unfortunately, there is a lot of hurt in the world caused by these actions, again nobody said it was pretty. In fact, our past is downright ugly.

But there have been great strides made for humanity and humans have evolved their thinking. ”

greed is taking more than you need regardless of the expense of someone else. that actually inhibits survival. and there is nothing about envy, pride, or wrath that perpetuate survival...they actually inhibit it in regards to the greater good. greed is when on the same planet some people are starving to death while some are spending millions on jewelry and other luxuries. envy, pride, and wrath, are offenses, not defenses.

No it doesn't inhibit survival. There are all kinds of greed and many of these so called sins are survival mechanisms.

For example. You and your family, mother and father are crossing a field, it's extremely cold and everyone is struggling to make it, your nearly starving. You mother and father can no longer go on and you have 5 children to watch. It's greed that allows you to leave your parents to die, it's selfish greed that allows your children to live in that situation.

So is greed bad ? yes and no, it can be either.

In the situation I described, there is no good outcome, only a better option. If you stayed with the parents, you all die.

Each of these has it's place and it is not that they should be cherished, but neither is it realistic to remove them from us.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Jesus died because he was a fear monger that incited mass gatherings of people and was preach anti roman teachings. And the romans did not like that so they killed him.

 

[jpappl]

Jesus died because he was a fear monger that incited mass gatherings of people and was preach anti roman teachings. And the romans did not like that so they killed him.

Along with a lot of people who did that. He was far from the only one crucified.

 

[Jan Ardena]

It's God's judgement.

What do you mean by that?

jan.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

PsychoticEpisode,
I may be classed as a drug dealer but at least one of us would know I am not. The truth is just obscured.

But your life would change, and you would change with it, due to this
association.

But Jan , I'm not guilty no matter how you slice it. Even if the law found me guilty then it would be a mistake. What you are saying is that a baby is just plain guilty of sin, unmistaken and with no recourse. I repeat ...... If this is the religion's case then why is the insanity of it all unrecognized by its practitioners?

 

[Repo Man]

Along with a lot of people who did that. He was far from the only one crucified.

It was apparently a common form of execution at the time.

“If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.” - Lenny Bruce

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

WHy didn't God personally announce little Jesus' birth instead of sending His airborne mouthpieces? I'd have to figure He might seize the moment, hand out cigars or buy a round of drinks. Not everyday you have a son born.

Perhaps God was despondent, knowing full well the little gaffer was doomed. Hard to believe that God actually dreamed this one up.

 

[jpappl]

PE,

Hard to believe that God actually dreamed this one up.

Yes, none of it makes any sense.

 

[GeoffP]

What do you mean by that?

jan.

Simple: I'm telling you that guilt by association is meaningless, except where some complicity in that guilt occurs. "Mortal", earthly courts are probably a little less adept at sorting that issue out than the being we perceive as God, who is meant to be omniscient. Ergo, your guilt by association argument shouldn't work as an explanation for "original sin". What sin, exactly, has a baby committed, for example?

 

[Adstar]

If Jesus died for our sins, shouldn't we take full advantage of that and sin all the damn time.

I mean wouldn't it be a shame, no a travesty to have him die for our sins and not be expert sinners.

Simple.

Sin is wrongdoing and wrong thinking.

Why would one seek to do wrong when one believes it is wrong to do wrong.

A Christian does not seek to avoid wrong to get a prise of eternity with God. A Christian seeks to avoid doing wrong because they believe what God says about what is wrong.

Of course being human we do and think wrong. It is our current human condition. So we must rely on the forgiveness of our sins that God has provided through the Messiah Jesus.

So one who believes God will have the intent to avoid doing wrongs. But when they commit wrongs they will acknowledge their thoughts or actions as being wrong.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jpappl]

Simple.

Sin is wrongdoing and wrong thinking.

Why would one seek to do wrong when one believes it is wrong to do wrong.

A Christian does not seek to avoid wrong to get a prise of eternity with God. A Christian seeks to avoid doing wrong because they believe what God says about what is wrong.

Of course being human we do and think wrong. It is our current human condition. So we must rely on the forgiveness of our sins that God has provided through the Messiah Jesus.

So one who believes God will have the intent to avoid doing wrongs. But when they commit wrongs they will acknowledge their thoughts or actions as being wrong.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Thanks, now I am even more confused.

 

[Adstar]

Why so?

What is not clear?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jpappl]

Adstar,

Sin is wrongdoing and wrong thinking.

Within each of these accept maybe Sloth, there are two sides to the story, in some cases these are not sins.

Greed, sometimes needed
Pride, sometimes needed
Envy, sometimes needed

Of course being human we do and think wrong.

Sometimes, not always. We make mistakes, I would agree but many of these are not sins in my mind like murder, rape, molestation are.

So one who believes God will have the intent to avoid doing wrongs. But when they commit wrongs they will acknowledge their thoughts or actions as being wrong.

You don't have to believe in god to avoid doing wrongs established by humanity. The question is, is the list of sins really sins. They could be considered wrong in some situations and not so in others.

The reality is that these traits have evolved in us and kept by us for our survival, that much is clear. They aren't going away.