If Jesus died for our sins

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How would you feel if someone who killed your child ends up next to you in heaven for example.

If all your tears and wounded feelings have been wiped away then you would not feel and conflict within from spending eternity with a person who was a former murderer.

What I am suggesting is that there is a tremendous amount of conflict and contradiction in saying that we should live this way but if you don't all that really matters is that you believe in god and all will be forgiven.

Not when your realise it is imposable for us to live a life of perfection. But we can acknowledge Perfection as being perfect. In that way we show our trust and agreement with perfection. We then make the one who is Perfect justified in forgiving us and granting us a perfect eternal existence.

To me that reeks of someone who is despearate to find membership to a club not truly seeking god's mercy.

That’s you judging from a position of limited awareness. If one trusts in the perfection of God one knows that no one is going to fool God with disingenuous repentance. God has total situational awareness. No one can lie to Him and get away with it.

I for one could not imagine ending up in heaven only to find my childs killer there as well, what is being asked of me is to give up my humanity for this other world, but what is left of me if I stand with my childs killer,

You don't need to imagine that. Because if you do end up being with God in eternity you will be a Person with all faults removed. Same with the person who murdered. all their faults will be removed. You will simply be unable to feel discomfort or hate for them.

I am no longer human, and apparently it didn't matter what I did on earth. So what is left of my soul, me.

If you do have eternity with God you will finally be the true person God wants you to be. You will be yourself with all your faults removed. And it does matter what you do on earth. It matters what decision you make in relation to the will of God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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So what happens with the Charles Manson's of the world, the Hitlers. Is there an end to what repentance can do ? or what it can erase from the past ?

Personally I hope there is a heaven, I don't believe there is but I hope there is. I am sure I would love to see my kids again after I die, and all those I cared about who have died before me.

But I don't see the logic in a system that allows us to cheat to such a massive degree, I wouldn't want to be there with monsters. So to me there is conflict in the idea that has no logical reasoning behind what would resolve such conflict.

Once you state that this person or that person is unforgivable then you are declaring yourself to be unforgivable. Because all fall short of the perfection of God, so if people cannot be forgiven then there is no hope for anyone.

Personally i am greatly encouraged and filled with Joy that people who have committed heinous crimes can be forgiven, that gives me confidence in my own case. I am confident that i am forgiven. Instead of looking at someone else’s forgiven state with resentment one should focus on their own forgiven state with joy.

But once again you got to look at things from the perspective of God:

Perfect / imperfect.

Not the perspective of men

Mostly bad/ Mostly good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Lori,



That doesn't answer my question.

I understand that it is god who makes the decision and I understand that god would know all that the person did and also what the person truly believes in their heart and soul.

The question is, do the true monsters of the world get into heaven by merely believing in god.

They have to believe God.

Satan believes in God so belief in God does not save.

If they believe God then they will be self condemning and hate their former actions, they will be in grief when they think of the evil they have done.

It is not an easy path the Way to eternity with God and it is very hard for the proud. A meek person can face correction with some discomfort but for a proud person it is a harrowing experiance that strikes at the core of their belief in self worth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[lightgigantic]

LG,



It sounds more like someone who came up with a story to make us feel better about the fact they we realize we are gonna die one day, more than a god creating this scenario for us.

So you think an idea of theism would be more credible if it painted the material world as the superior mode for existence?

With the flaws in the texts, it makes way more sense they were wrong about and made up the rest then gods words.

Not really since even if we insist on using texts with severe text critical issues, there's still no good argument for suggesting the entire text is fallacious. For instance if you are wrong about the date, it doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong about your name, address and relative's names.
If you wanted to fix this argument you would have to indicate how a particular error is sufficient to qualify the whole work as erroneous. Otherwise one can indicate errors in any person, creed or discipline and have a good argument for rejecting them wholesale.

BS, here was the original back and forth on this:

ME: “ Whether or not there is a god, the idea came from humans. ”

YOU: How so?
I mean do you think that your parents are your ideas?

I responded with the fact that I could present them to you, and you responded that if you didn't look at them how could I convince you they existed. Rubbish.

I'm surprised that you can't see the parallel.

The very act of you showing me requires that I accept your words on faith or that I take a certain initiative to fall in line with certain normative issues.

The same holds true of god.
:shrug:

Has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Has everything to do with it. Who thinks "My life is boring, maybe it would be good if I went to jail"?

Sure but what does that have to do with what we were talking about. That is an individual case. We are not all assigned jail time. The point is there is nothing else out there we know of that is better than what we have. Being first place doesn't suck.

Actually the point is that we are assigned (all of us in the material world) jail time....of course if one doesn't understand or see that (or has no possibility to escape that) than they will settle out some sort of niche in the sub culture to draw up parameters of pleasure and pain (eg "Oh boy mashed potatoes/Oh no soup", "Oh boy, a walk in the yard/oh no solitary detention", etc or similarly "Oh boy big muscles/oh no terminal cancer", "oh boy a big house/oh no a run down apartment" etc)

So none of them really no their ass from a hole in the ground. Just a bunch of guessers, bullshitters.

Actually most historians recognize Alexandria as the bullshitter, since he was driven by the political desire to unify Christianity at whatever cost (an orthodoxy that takes a scalpel to philosophy usually doesn't yield top notch results)

So why do these devout ones get medical treatment and do everything to survive, knowing that their god is saying to them, it's your time.

My experience is that they don't. And they don't even have to be an outwardly remarkable theist of outstanding reverence either.

Are they not thumbing their noses at god by not respecting his choice.

It tends to be a personal choice, but in my observation of them, they tend to weigh up the life they have lead versus how spiritually prepared they are

I understand being afraid of death. I don't want to die, but if I really believed there was an afterlife, and I got cancer, I wouldn't bother fighting it. But I don't believe, seems even the true believer has it's limitations.

There's a subtle point to the practice that you may not comprehend. The idea is not that it is best to die (and go back to heaven). The idea is that it is best to serve god (which actually grants everything spiritual beyond mere residence in the spiritual world). So just like there might be spiritual work for what one has to achieve in this world (as seen most graphically through the live's of great saints) there are good reasons to keep good health etc. IOW the body, much like the planet, is given by god and behooves a person to look after it simply from the point of maintenance. On a more conventional level, the work we usually have before us is to cut down the attachment to things that impede our spiritual progress . This usually means taking advantage of the work performed by saintly persons. If a person hasn't properly accomplished this, they might exhibit some symptoms of the conventional failings of a gross materialist (since, like them, they too aren't quite ready for death just yet). In short, there is a whole art to dying that remains totally neglected by contemporary values of society.

 

[lightgigantic]

LOL. yea but strangely I know what LG means so no big deal.

my bad

I meant prerequisites

 

[jpappl]

LG,

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
LG,



It sounds more like someone who came up with a story to make us feel better about the fact they we realize we are gonna die one day, more than a god creating this scenario for us. ”

So you think an idea of theism would be more credible if it painted the material world as the superior mode for existence?

No not at all. I understand the need for us to believe we move on, since there aren't a bunch of zombies running around, well not real zombies in the came back from the dead type, it makes sense to think that we no longer are part of this world.

But I believe that nobody knows the answers or the way it will be, including about gods plan or god itself. What we have in this case is a story, believe it on faith or don't.

“ With the flaws in the texts, it makes way more sense they were wrong about and made up the rest then gods words. ”

Not really since even if we insist on using texts with severe text critical issues, there's still no good argument for suggesting the entire text is fallacious. For instance if you are wrong about the date, it doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong about your name, address and relative's names.
If you wanted to fix this argument you would have to indicate how a particular error is sufficient to qualify the whole work as erroneous. Otherwise one can indicate errors in any person, creed or discipline and have a good argument for rejecting them wholesale.

I am not suggesting the entire text is fallacious. I am suggesting that it's not the word of god. Otherwise, we would not encounter such errors and mistakes based on our findings since then. Even if we understand that humans could have mistaken some of gods words or meanings, it's apparent that the texts aren't really that important.

God apparently didn't care enough to make sure we got it right. Or, you can toss out all of our discoveries since and become a creationist and think that everything we have found and is tangible is in fact a lie, which would IMO be delusional.

I'm surprised that you can't see the parallel.

The very act of you showing me requires that I accept your words on faith or that I take a certain initiative to fall in line with certain normative issues.

The same holds true of god.

I see the parallel I just don't agree with it. The difference being that I can present them to you in physical form, you can't do that with your god, you yourself can't see and meet your god, unless you want to claim that you have or can.

“ Has nothing to do with what we were talking about. ”

Has everything to do with it. Who thinks "My life is boring, maybe it would be good if I went to jail"?

Nobody that I know.

“ Sure but what does that have to do with what we were talking about. That is an individual case. We are not all assigned jail time. The point is there is nothing else out there we know of that is better than what we have. Being first place doesn't suck. ”

Actually the point is that we are assigned (all of us in the material world) jail time....of course if one doesn't understand or see that (or has no possibility to escape that) than they will settle out some sort of niche in the sub culture to draw up parameters of pleasure and pain (eg "Oh boy mashed potatoes/Oh no soup", "Oh boy, a walk in the yard/oh no solitary detention", etc or similarly "Oh boy big muscles/oh no terminal cancer", "oh boy a big house/oh no a run down apartment" etc)

I see that, but again I disagree with it. What you call jail time here on earth, is what I call life because it is what I know. I can fantasize and dream about some perfect world out there but it doesn't make it true. No, I will happily enjoy my time here for as long as I can, it's a beautiful world.

So none of them really no their ass from a hole in the ground. Just a bunch of guessers, bullshitters. ”

Actually most historians recognize Alexandria as the bullshitter, since he was driven by the political desire to unify Christianity at whatever cost (an orthodoxy that takes a scalpel to philosophy usually doesn't yield top notch results)

Well, it seems to me that with as many hands that touched the process, it was bound to go sideways at some point.

“ So why do these devout ones get medical treatment and do everything to survive, knowing that their god is saying to them, it's your time. ”

My experience is that they don't. And they don't even have to be an outwardly remarkable theist of outstanding reverence either.

They don't get medical treatment, they don't do everything they can to survive ?

Are they not thumbing their noses at god by not respecting his choice. ”

It tends to be a personal choice, but in my observation of them, they tend to weigh up the life they have lead versus how spiritually prepared they are

I guess it doesn't matter because whether they seek treatment or not, if there is a god that wants to take them, they are taken.

“ I understand being afraid of death. I don't want to die, but if I really believed there was an afterlife, and I got cancer, I wouldn't bother fighting it. But I don't believe, seems even the true believer has it's limitations. ”

There's a subtle point to the practice that you may not comprehend. The idea is not that it is best to die (and go back to heaven). The idea is that it is best to serve god (which actually grants everything spiritual beyond mere residence in the spiritual world). So just like there might be spiritual work for what one has to achieve in this world (as seen most graphically through the live's of great saints) there are good reasons to keep good health etc. IOW the body, much like the planet, is given by god and behooves a person to look after it simply from the point of maintenance. On a more conventional level, the work we usually have before us is to cut down the attachment to things that impede our spiritual progress . This usually means taking advantage of the work performed by saintly persons. If a person hasn't properly accomplished this, they might exhibit some symptoms of the conventional failings of a gross materialist (since, like them, they too aren't quite ready for death just yet). In short, there is a whole art to dying that remains totally neglected by contemporary values of society.

There is a complexity created by the above.

Does god take us when he is ready or when we are ready ?

 

[jpappl]

Adstar,

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
“

“ Adstar said:

and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. ”

Sounds like he is saying that you should love you life in this world because if you don't then you will keep it forever. IOW, you don't want to keep this life but you should appreciate and respect it. Cherish it for what it is. ”

No. He is saying he who hates their current faulty life will have eternal perfect life. This is understood when one reads the bible as a whole.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. But isn't hate the wrong word. I mean, are we not supposed to take care of ourselves, our bodies. That certainly isn't the act of someone who hates this life and wants to move on.

If you love your life in this world then you also love all your faults, those who love sin are not with the Father ( God ) in spirit.

So why don't all the believes commit suicide ?

It seems at odds to ask us to hate our sins and faults because we are human, and therefore hate this life and at the same time, take care of ourselves and not want to die and do everything we can to live.

If it is so that we can serve god by doing things that god wishes us to do, then one would love this life because it gives them the opportunity to serve god even more.

So what am I missing. Maybe if it was phrased, "don't worship this material life but serve god through good deeds and you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven"

So instead of hate, don't worship would be better. Agree ?

Your point of measurement is worldly. You see the world as sometimes bad and sometimes good and you have deduced from your vantage point that life on earth is mostly a good thing. So you declare life good.

I do because this is all I know. The rest is on faith, that there is actually a place beyond this where we will go. There could be, or maybe not.

“ To me that reeks of someone who is despearate to find membership to a club not truly seeking god's mercy. ”

That’s you judging from a position of limited awareness. If one trusts in the perfection of God one knows that no one is going to fool God with disingenuous repentance. God has total situational awareness. No one can lie to Him and get away with it.

Right, so if Hitler truly believed in his heart and repented completely, god would grant him entrance to heaven. Doesn't seem fair does it.

“ I for one could not imagine ending up in heaven only to find my childs killer there as well, what is being asked of me is to give up my humanity for this other world, but what is left of me if I stand with my childs killer, ”

You don't need to imagine that. Because if you do end up being with God in eternity you will be a Person with all faults removed. Same with the person who murdered. all their faults will be removed. You will simply be unable to feel discomfort or hate for them.

Sounds like I will be a robot. If he removes all my faults and imperfections, I will no longer be me, my memories etc.

How can this be ? How can I be both who I am and at the same time be without faults.

If I no longer know the person was my kids murderer, then I no longer know my kid either.

Personally i am greatly encouraged and filled with Joy that people who have committed heinous crimes can be forgiven, that gives me confidence in my own case. I am confident that i am forgiven. Instead of looking at someone else’s forgiven state with resentment one should focus on their own forgiven state with joy.

But once again you got to look at things from the perspective of God:

Perfect / imperfect.

Not the perspective of men

Mostly bad/ Mostly good.

LOL, been a bad boy have we Ad. Just kidding of course.

Ok, I see where you are coming from on the forgiveness part. But I wouldn't forgive anymore than I would expect them to forgive me for such an act. I also understand that it is not me who will doing the judging in the end. The conflict I have in this case is how god should expect me to be ok with such forgiveness without disassembling me to brain dead status.

It is not an easy path the Way to eternity with God and it is very hard for the proud. A meek person can face correction with some discomfort but for a proud person it is a harrowing experiance that strikes at the core of their belief in self worth.

Yes the judgement. Lets hope it actually happens, I can think of some that should have a freaking harrowing experience like no other and I can think of many that should pass with flying colors.

 

[lightgigantic]

LG,



No not at all. I understand the need for us to believe we move on, since there aren't a bunch of zombies running around, well not real zombies in the came back from the dead type, it makes sense to think that we no longer are part of this world.

But I believe that nobody knows the answers or the way it will be, including about gods plan or god itself. What we have in this case is a story, believe it on faith or don't.

Then its as I suspected - when you talk of theism being generated for the sake of fulling some need for fiction, you're really talking about the ways in which the world has to conform to fit your values.

I am not suggesting the entire text is fallacious. I am suggesting that it's not the word of god. Otherwise, we would not encounter such errors and mistakes based on our findings since then. Even if we understand that humans could have mistaken some of gods words or meanings, it's apparent that the texts aren't really that important.

Don't know what you are drawing on to suggest that they aren't important, but I can fathom a guess what you might be overlooking to come to that conclusion

God apparently didn't care enough to make sure we got it right. Or, you can toss out all of our discoveries since and become a creationist and think that everything we have found and is tangible is in fact a lie, which would IMO be delusional.

So you don't think there is any possible theistic position aside from calculating the age of the earth according to biblical genealogy?

I see the parallel I just don't agree with it. The difference being that I can present them to you in physical form, you can't do that with your god, you yourself can't see and meet your god, unless you want to claim that you have or can.

Ok then
present your parents in a physical form

Nobody that I know.

hence the contribution of error to our lives is not a box of chocolates

I see that, but again I disagree with it. What you call jail time here on earth, is what I call life because it is what I know. I can fantasize and dream about some perfect world out there but it doesn't make it true. No, I will happily enjoy my time here for as long as I can, it's a beautiful world.

Actually you won't happily enjoy yourself here. Regardless of which philosophy you subscribe to, the general conclusion is that this world is not at all geared up for enjoyment. Everything is here to go. Of course if one doesn't have the option of an alternative they will try and make the best use of a bad bargain and carve out a niche of happiness and distress within the greater context of distress that the material world operates out of.

Well, it seems to me that with as many hands that touched the process, it was bound to go sideways at some point.

all depends on who does the touching

They don't get medical treatment, they don't do everything they can to survive ?

They may get some, but once they catch hint that the body is simply a battleground for several diseases competing for supremacy, they take the advantage to prepare for death.

Sometimes they even survive, but survival is not the focus, since even a second wind from a terminal condition simply postpones the inevitable at some later date.

I guess it doesn't matter because whether they seek treatment or not, if there is a god that wants to take them, they are taken.

Its like that regardless of whether one gets treatment or not for everyone

There is a complexity created by the above.

Does god take us when he is ready or when we are ready ?

When god is ready of course (or as far as the experience of people in general, when one's karma demands it). If we're not ready we simply take birth again as a consequence.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,
Ok, thanks for the clarification. But isn't hate the wrong word. I mean, are we not supposed to take care of ourselves, our bodies. That certainly isn't the act of someone who hates this life and wants to move on.

Looking after your body and the world can be done even when you hate their current state of being. Just as loving your enemies is possible. Loving your enemies is not a statement of agreement with their attitude towards you.

So why don't all the believes commit suicide ?

Probably answered this question 100 times in here.

God does not want us to kill ourselves. Suicide is just self murder.

It seems at odds to ask us to hate our sins and faults because we are human, and therefore hate this life and at the same time, take care of ourselves and not want to die and do everything we can to live.

Not really odd. If one believes their is a purpose to life even when the current state is worthy of hate. As for doing things to keep on living. I must allow conscience to guide me there. I do not strive to survive because i love life, but because there may be someone in the future who will need me, if i am dead then i will not be there to help them.

If it is so that we can serve god by doing things that god wishes us to do, then one would love this life because it gives them the opportunity to serve god even more.

Good point. But never to the extent of doing evil in order to survive.

So what am I missing. Maybe if it was phrased, "don't worship this material life but serve god through good deeds and you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven"

That is the message of so many religions of this world. And it is no wonder that the religions of this world have so many adherents, Because worldly religions cater to the thoughts of men, what they figure to be right. But they are wrong. We do not earn eternity with God by paying good deed instalments. We are granted eternity with God by trusting in the forgiving gift that comes via Jesus.

So instead of hate, don't worship would be better. Agree ?

We can discuss different severity of words, but the basic message remains the same.

I do because this is all I know. The rest is on faith, that there is actually a place beyond this where we will go. There could be, or maybe not.

I don't because i have hope for something far far better. To use an analogy, When someone plays an old computer game on an old machine with an old monitor they may feel content and like it. Until the time comes when they do the big upgrade to a state of the art gaming computer and buy that graphically extravagant game. Let them play it for a week and then sit them back down in front of the old computer again to play their old game. They will not believe just how bad the graphics where. They may even wonder why they ever thought it was good. They will think of the old system as garbage.

Right, so if Hitler truly believed in his heart and repented completely, god would grant him entrance to heaven. Doesn't seem fair does it.

It should seem fair to you. What’s the point of punishing someone who is truly sorry for the wrongs they have done? Does not their revulsion at their former actions lift them up to a higher level over another person who committed the same acts but stands defiant and proud and states with conviction and a smile that they are glad they did the evil.

Sounds like I will be a robot. If he removes all my faults and imperfections, I will no longer be me, my memories etc.

How can this be ? How can I be both who I am and at the same time be without faults.

A Child is born blind in the under-developed world and lives to the age of 10 when a aid worker comes and discovers their blindness is reversible with a simple and cheap operation. Now the child may feel a mixture of excitement and even fear at the prospect of having something called sight given to them. Now when the child is operated on and their blind state ends do they cease to exist? No they are the same being but they are changed and live in a new reality.

If I no longer know the person was my kids murderer, then I no longer know my kid either.

Well i don't think i said that you would not know that the person in their lives killed your child. My guess is that you will remember. But you will be changed to have full understanding and will know the person as they are in their eternal Good state. They would love you and you would love them.

LOL, been a bad boy have we Ad. Just kidding of course.

Well i have never killed anyone physically to my knowledge. But i have hated people enough to wish they where dead. So as sin is first committed by thought. And as thought is the same as deed to God. Yes i am a mass murderer. I thank God for the forgiveness that He had provided for me through Jesus.

Ok, I see where you are coming from on the forgiveness part. But I wouldn't forgive anymore than I would expect them to forgive me for such an act. I also understand that it is not me who will doing the judging in the end. The conflict I have in this case is how god should expect me to be ok with such forgiveness without disassembling me to brain dead status.

Can’t you see that it is not about disassembling you down to a brain dead moron. It is about lifting you up to a plain far higher and far more noble and greater than you are now. I believe God will make me awesome and wonderful. We shall judge Angels.

Yes the judgement. Lets hope it actually happens, I can think of some that should have a freaking harrowing experience like no other and I can think of many that should pass with flying colors.

Once again you are judging form a human perspective. Mostly bad.... Mostly good... not in the absolute... Perfection and imperfection.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days