Concept of Original Sin is bogus.... what do you think GeoffP?
Peace be unto you
If Jesus died for our sins
- Thread starter jpappl
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Concept of Original Sin is bogus.... what do you think GeoffP?
Peace be unto you
i'm guessing that you don't have much experience with children.
So you're saying a baby is a sinner?
Peace be unto you
that's not obvious? we're all born with this defect ok. we suffer from the moment we're let out of the womb...crying and screaming in discomfort, and it just gets worse from there. we're too cold, we're too hot, we're hungry, we're too full, we've got gas, not enough attention...need, need, need...needs not met...wah, wah, wah.
:bawl:
And crying is a sin? Wanting to eat is a sin? Sleeping is a sin? Feeling warm is a sin? Buying clothes is a sin? Closing your eyes is a sin? Screaming is a sin? Taking a shit is a sin? Needing is a sin?
Peace be unto you
And crying is a sin? Wanting to eat is a sin? Sleeping is a sin? Feeling warm is a sin? Buying clothes is a sin? Closing your eyes is a sin? Screaming is a sin? Taking a shit is a sin? Needing is a sin?
Peace be unto you
babies are much more in tune than adults. they come out of the womb knowing that something is seriously wrong. that's why they cry so much.
put two babies in a crib together and what do they do? fight.
throw a toy in and what do we discover? selfishness and greed.
kids are pointing fingers and calling names before they ever get to preschool.
i'm 42 years old and i still remember how cruel kids are. i was one of them! it makes me cry to this day when i think about how mean i was to my little brother.
siblings jealous of each other...babies! vying for mommy and daddy's attention.
sin is a genetic condition. if we're born with it, then it HAS to be. what is missing is communion, with god and with each other. it has a physical, emotional, and intellectual effect. we're all sad, uncomfortable, and retarded.
It was a scam at a higher level. Church officials aren't "part God", they're humans much as anyone else and liable to err. I read no basis for it in the NT or the OT.
Actually my question was if the sins were meant to be forgiven anyway, what was the point of Jesus death on the cross? What is it that he accomplished?
Peace be unto you
A reminder. Then again: in what context were sins meant to be forgiven in the OT? Do you have a specific passage? As far as I know, Judaism doesn't deal in hell and eternal punishment.
If Jesus died for the Christians sins then they can rob, murder, rape, steal.....etc and end up in heaven . Hahahaha.......a crazy thought brought by some nuts some thousands of years ago.......:shrug::shrug:.
Thank goodness we have laws all over the world to protect us from criminals and wannabes .
PsychoticEpisode,
Transgression of law is not a religious conduct.
It's more a case of sin by association.
If someone leaves a load of illegal drugs in your car, and you somehow
get caught by the authorities, then you will be classed as a drug dealer unless you can prove otherwise.
jan.
Transgression of law is not a religious conduct.
It's more a case of sin by association.
If someone leaves a load of illegal drugs in your car, and you somehow
get caught by the authorities, then you will be classed as a drug dealer unless you can prove otherwise.
jan.
PE,
Yes, and that is what they are really afraid of, placing us on the same planet as the rest of the animals. Everything in religion is essentially geared towards one idea. That there must be more to it than this, that we must be special, we are not animals, we must not act like animals, etc etc, They were looking for a way to place us outside of nature.
It's all a big joke. Like you said, it's normal human behavior and for that which we feel needs to be controlled we have laws.
Yes, and that is what they are really afraid of, placing us on the same planet as the rest of the animals. Everything in religion is essentially geared towards one idea. That there must be more to it than this, that we must be special, we are not animals, we must not act like animals, etc etc, They were looking for a way to place us outside of nature.
It's all a big joke. Like you said, it's normal human behavior and for that which we feel needs to be controlled we have laws.
it's not about being special, or better than animals. i would argue that we're much worse actually.
it's about something better. it's about a perfect existence. one without pain and suffering. what's so absurd about that?
the fact that we have to have laws to protect us against "normal" behavior means that something is very wrong with us. it's just accepted as the only way. why? if things can be wrong, then it stands to reason they can be right.
We have created laws to protect us from each others acts. The acts could be natural or instinctual. The issue is that we have continued to evolve socially and we have categorized these acts and have deemed some of them socially unacceptable.
But having sex is natural, yet religions have twisted what it is. It's natural, this scares them, we are not supposed to be part of nature.
The reason why we go to war, have sex, eat, sleep etc etc is because that is who we are, where we came from, evolved from. We came from a very rough, desparate and dangerous past. These things are in us, it's not sin.
Guess what, we may get to that perfect state one day, but it might take another 1000 years of evolving socially.
this is a contradiction imo.
this "condition" is called sin in the bible. since we're addressing it here as sin, let's consider what else the bible says about it...
we are born into it. that is, it is inherent and innate.
it resides in our flesh. that is, it is a part of our physical makeup, not a behavior, or something that resides in, or is caused by, our environment.
it is bestowed upon the son by the father. giving no consideration to environment or culture or habit. many sons don't even know their fathers.
this indicates to me that sin is obviously a genetic condition. the behavioral outcomes of which are appropriate to the condition.
the whole point of christ is that at some point, this condition will be removed. he was born without sin in his body. the communion ceremony, is celebratory of the union of christ and his church, indicated by ingesting symbolic representations of his blood and his body. this means that we will also have sinless bodies like him one day.
it is said that the blood of christ (which would contain this sin-free dna) redeems, restores, heals, and cleanses. we are "saved" by the blood of christ.
people want to think about it (probably because of religion) in terms of following rules and exhibiting self-control to bring about change. but what the bible actually reflects is a biological change that will inherently bring about these affects without rules or self-control. there will be nothing to control. we will all inherently act in accordance with nature and with the greater good.
i have a book downstairs called "lost books of the bible", and in it there are chapters that were removed from genesis, that follow the fall of man. in those, it describes a physical change that occurred in adam and eve. and subsequently they experienced pain for the first time, hunger for the first time, shame and guilt for the first time, cold for the first time, loneliness, isolation, and fear for the first time.
these things will pass.
it's hard for me to believe that you think society will cure these ills. imo, which is based on the entire recorded history of mankind, and everything i know about myself and other humans after 42 years on this planet, is that your suggestion is way more of a pipe dream than mine.
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Lori,
It's not a contradicition because I am not saying we will achieve some sort of perfection in our behavior. But it could possiby be done with drugs. Nice eh.
So why do some sin more than others, why aren't we all criminals etc.
Are you suggesting that environmental factors have no affect on us. That a child that is raised in an abusive situation is not affected by that abuse.
What I am saying is that what is natural to us is not sinful. It's precisely who we are.
What are some of the sins suggested in the bible ?
I know you believe the story, but do you realize that thousands and thousands of people were crucified. What makes this person, who crossed the wrong people special. They created this story and now we ignore all the contradictions in the story.
But the bible is asking us to not act in accordance with nature or our instincts.
It's hard to imagine what our society might be like in 1000 years. Like I said, we could get to some point where we use drugs to control everyone, who knows.
But where I disagree with you is that we are inherently bad. We have discussed this at length before and I understand your position, I just don't agree with you on the reason we are the way we are.
I am suggesting and there is a mountain of evidence to support me, that we evolved over millions of years to become exactly what we are now, and we will continue to evolve to something else to some degree in 1000 years and beyond. What that exactly will be nobody knows. That is our story with evidence. The rest are just stories.
This also is not suggesting there is or was never a god. But if god created the universe, then we were mean't to evolve and let what happens happen. That is where the evidence points.
It does not point to any religious text version of creation and nor does it provide any evidence there was or is a god, other than we don't know how it all started.
It's not a contradicition because I am not saying we will achieve some sort of perfection in our behavior. But it could possiby be done with drugs. Nice eh.
So why do some sin more than others, why aren't we all criminals etc.
Are you suggesting that environmental factors have no affect on us. That a child that is raised in an abusive situation is not affected by that abuse.
What I am saying is that what is natural to us is not sinful. It's precisely who we are.
What are some of the sins suggested in the bible ?
I know you believe the story, but do you realize that thousands and thousands of people were crucified. What makes this person, who crossed the wrong people special. They created this story and now we ignore all the contradictions in the story.
But the bible is asking us to not act in accordance with nature or our instincts.
It's hard to imagine what our society might be like in 1000 years. Like I said, we could get to some point where we use drugs to control everyone, who knows.
But where I disagree with you is that we are inherently bad. We have discussed this at length before and I understand your position, I just don't agree with you on the reason we are the way we are.
I am suggesting and there is a mountain of evidence to support me, that we evolved over millions of years to become exactly what we are now, and we will continue to evolve to something else to some degree in 1000 years and beyond. What that exactly will be nobody knows. That is our story with evidence. The rest are just stories.
This also is not suggesting there is or was never a god. But if god created the universe, then we were mean't to evolve and let what happens happen. That is where the evidence points.
It does not point to any religious text version of creation and nor does it provide any evidence there was or is a god, other than we don't know how it all started.
Again, not the way it works.
UGH!!! i HATE this mentality that is so ingrained into our society nowadays. no, don't solve the problem, just treat the symptoms indefinitely with drugs.
do you work for a pharmaceutical company or something? :bugeye:
the very fact that you're suggesting drugs is contradictory to the rest of what you're saying as well. that the problem is within us, not outside of us.
that's just relative and self-indulgent bullshit right there. if you think that right and wrong are determined by the government...i don't even know what to say.
no. i'm just saying that's not what sin is. that is an outcome of sin though. if we weren't flawed, no one would suffer abuse.
and who we are is affected by an inherent condition called sin.
greed, lust, gluttony, sloth, envy, pride, wrath. are those punished by the government? lol...
that he was born without this condition called sin. that's it!
so. i can certainly testify that a little self-control goes a long way where i'm concerned. i don't want to be greedy, or lustful, or envious, or full of pride, or gluttonous, or lazy, or full of wrath. and it's safe to say the other people around me don't want me to be either.
why do we need discipline? why is discipline a good thing?
the thought of that disgusts me.
we are good and bad. we ate from the tree of good and evil, and so now we experience both. i want good. i don't want bad. this is what i've learned from my experience.
the whole story of christ is about an evolution, from one age into the next. a new generation of mankind will be created from the first fruits of this one. and i will be one of those people.