If God has created the Universe and everything in it, then ...

[greenberg]

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that God has also created every choice that a person makes, every action a person performs.

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that everything that happens is up to God.

If God is transcendant and controlling. If God is immanent or also immanent and we are a part of God, then perhaps it is not like that.

Tell me more.

I think that once a First Cause is postulated, everything eventually boils down to it.

Some people argue that this isn't so, and postulate a kind of a break of this causal chain at the point of creation of a person/soul - as if from that point on, God had nothing to do with his creations anymore, except on Judgment Day.

Both in Christianity and in Hinduism, I have heard of the notion that "We are God's", that God says "You are Mine". This could, of course, be interpreted in several ways. But it can also be interpreted to mean that everything is somehow connected to God, either in affection or disaffection, but definitely connected.
Just because the connection is complex, doesn't mean there isn't one or that we should do as if there weren't one.

 

[greenberg]

In one sense, god created two different universes - one for those who want to exist in awareness of him and one for those who don't - and that is basically what our free will boils down to.

Is a soul either one or the other - either wanting to exist in awareness of God, or not wanting to exist in awareness of God?
Is the one or the other desire immanent, unalienable to the soul?

 

[lightgigantic]

Is a soul either one or the other - either wanting to exist in awareness of God, or not wanting to exist in awareness of God?
Is the one or the other desire immanent, unalienable to the soul?

the soul is marginal, which means it entertains different values according to the medium (or universe) it takes shelter of .... constitutionally it is however eternally conscious of god, no matter what sort of follies it makes in the material world. Kind of like how water is constitutionally a liquid form, even though it can be given designations that are quite contrary (eg gaseous or ice) by applying different environments.

 

[davewhite04]

Blatant liars? You misunderstood my response. You . I believe. were referring to abiogenisis and asked how DNA was sequenced. As this was part of the God / intelligece thing, I assumed you were asking me how the process started because you seem to believe it requires an intelligent agent wheras I am content to say I do not know.

So the question is , do you believe the process requires of an intelligent creator/ designer or do you share my view that the question has yet to be answered

My sincere apologies Myles.

I believe the creation of the process required intelligence.

 

[davewhite04]

I se where you are coming from now. A plan needs a planner and that shows you that God must exist. Is that your point ?

It doesn't show that God must exist. I believe it is evidence that an intelligent agent was required to create life through DNA.

 

[greenberg]

the soul is marginal, which means it entertains different values according to the medium (or universe) it takes shelter of .... constitutionally it is however eternally conscious of god, no matter what sort of follies it makes in the material world. Kind of like how water is constitutionally a liquid form, even though it can be given designations that are quite contrary (eg gaseous or ice) by applying different environments.

To take the analogy further - What do cookies, rocks, milk, bread, lettuce, oranges, nuts, chicken meat, human eyeballs ... have in common? They all contain water.
- Is that a correct analogy?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Tell me more.

I think that once a First Cause is postulated, everything eventually boils down to it.

For me the transcendant God is problematic and I think the root of a lot of problems - this world doesn't matter, rewards later, punishments later. The real dance is going on outside this veil of tears, etc. When Jesus split reality with his render unto Caesar, I think he did some real damage to us. Notions of worldly justice or enjoying life get postponed and all sort of sick individuals have used the openings this creates to take power and abuse us. As one example of the problems this creates. This could seem like I entertained notions of immanence to solve problems which is not the case.

If we have an immanent God and we are a part of that God then notions of being controlled by God must be relooked at. If there is a creative ability in God then to smaller degrees we have creative ability. We are part of what is not completely caused.

It also makes this life, these moments relevent not just as testing grounds for future judgement and all that.

I mean, I don't want to start selling. It was just that in your OP I felt the weight of the 'outside and prior and after God' that the monotheists are so fond of. So I thought I would toss out one other possibility.

 

[Myles]

It doesn't show that God must exist. I believe it is evidence that an intelligent agent was required to create life through DNA.

I'll stick with I don't know yet and may never do so. Positing the involvement of an intelligence is, for me, simply filling a gap with god. It doeds nothing to further my understanding.

I tink we have reached the stage where it would make sense to agree to differ,. Nice talking to you

 

[LiveInFaith]

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that God has also created every choice that a person makes, every action a person performs.

Yes, why not?
Everything is programmed, run the way the algorythm coded into this universe.

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that everything that happens is up to God.

Sure, God still has the "button" to interfere the programs being run.

 

[(Q)]

Yes, why not?
Everything is programmed, run the way the algorythm coded into this universe.

And, that goes for murderers, rapists and despots?

Sure, God still has the "button" to interfere the programs being run.

Like schizophrenia?

 

[LiveInFaith]

And, that goes for murderers, rapists and despots?



Like schizophrenia?

everything means everything, no exclusion.

 

[davewhite04]

I'll stick with I don't know yet and may never do so. Positing the involvement of an intelligence is, for me, simply filling a gap with god. It doeds nothing to further my understanding.

I tink we have reached the stage where it would make sense to agree to differ,. Nice talking to you

I respect your position, nice talking to you too.

 

[(Q)]

everything means everything, no exclusion.

Gods are equal-opportunity sadists.

 

[LiveInFaith]

Gods are equal-opportunity sadists.

if you just nitpicks those you think of what God only does.

 

[(Q)]

if you just nitpicks those you think of what God only does.

No nitpicking required. Simply, the delineation between your gods capricious puppeteering and natural random events?

 

[lightgigantic]

To take the analogy further - What do cookies, rocks, milk, bread, lettuce, oranges, nuts, chicken meat, human eyeballs ... have in common? They all contain water.
- Is that a correct analogy?

sure, but if you ask for as glass of water and someone brings you a glass of rock dust, would you complain?

 

[greenberg]

sure, but if you ask for as glass of water and someone brings you a glass of rock dust, would you complain?

To keep with the analogy -

Ideally, I would complain.

But realistically, I probably wouldn't dare. I would first doubt myself, thinking, "Oh, perhaps I see wrongly. Perhaps this is what I actually ordered. Perhaps I am just asking for too much. I shouldn't be so demanding and choosy."

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

sure, but if you ask for as glass of water and someone brings you a glass of rock dust, would you complain?

I'll bite. Yes, I would complain. Unless they were very big and angry looking.

 

[lightgigantic]

To keep with the analogy -

Ideally, I would complain.

But realistically, I probably wouldn't dare. I would first doubt myself, thinking, "Oh, perhaps I see wrongly. Perhaps this is what I actually ordered. Perhaps I am just asking for too much. I shouldn't be so demanding and choosy."

seriously greenberg, I think you need to be a bit more assertive

 

[draqon]

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that God has also created every choice that a person makes, every action a person performs.

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that everything that happens is up to God.

further on reasoning...if God has created everything than everything is God and we are God as well and thus everything that happens is up to us