If God has created the Universe and everything in it, then ...

Cris said:
spider,

Right, but they are formed in the process from simpler elements, they are not created from nothing.

We know of no event where something comes from nothing.
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This is a good argument against God though.
 
greenberg said:
If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that God has also created every choice that a person makes, every action a person performs.

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that everything that happens is up to God.
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No, it does not. Please read the following.

Determinacy and indeterminacy…at first glance, there seems to be no middle ground. Events are either causally connected or they are not, and if they are not, then the future would seem to be utterly independent of the past. Either we use causality to connect the dots and draw a coherent picture of time, or we settle for a random scattering of independent dots without spatial or temporal pattern and thus without meaning. At the risk of understatement, the philosophical effects of this assumed dichotomy have been corrosive in the extreme. No universe that exists or evolves strictly as a function of external determinacy, randomness or an alternation of the two can offer much in the way of meaning. Where freedom and volition are irrelevant, so is much of human experience and individuality.

But there is another possibility after all: self-determinacy. Self-determinacy is like a circuitous boundary separating the poles of the above dichotomy…a reflexive and therefore closed boundary, the formation of which involves neither preexisting laws nor external structure. Thus, it is the type of causal attribution suitable for a perfectly self-contained system. Self-determinacy is a deep but subtle concept, owing largely to the fact that unlike either determinacy or randomness, it is a source of bona fide meaning. Where a system determines its own composition, properties and evolution independently of external laws or structures, it can determine its own meaning, and ensure by its self-configuration that its inhabitants are crucially implicated therein.
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http://www.ctmu.org/
 
In this instance order came from another human, what happens when order comes from an invisible entity?

You research, you try to explain it.

When you read about someones struggle or victories with an invisible entity that you relate to 100% then it becomes clear that you love the same entity that the backward folk believed in years ago.

I relate to God in many ways, but love was the key.

This hasn't affected negatively the way I love others.
 
davewhite04 said:
In this instance order came from another human, what happens when order comes from an invisible entity?

You research, you try to explain it.

When you read about someones struggle or victories with an invisible entity that you relate to 100% then it becomes clear that you love the same entity that the backward folk believed in years ago.

I relate to God in many ways, but love was the key.

This hasn't affected negatively the way I love others.
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Love doesn't facilitate order.. :shrug:

So in essence you made up God to explain the order in the universe. Is that it ? Because it sure sounds like it..
 
No, but I believe it takes an intelligent being to create what we see now, I don't believe it can be explained away by chance.
 
EVEN an omniscient being can't know the future because you can't know what does not exist. The future isn't predetermined... it isn't created... it is something that we and God continuously create with our free will. In 7 days. Today is friday, the 5th day. The creation (universe) is a neverending process.

The future can't be known, but possible futures can be predicted.

spidergoat said:
I think the apparent order, or complex interactions of matter, can be attributed to the nature of chemistry. Chemistry is more understood now than in the past, and there doesn't seem to be anything supernatural about it.
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Chemistry does not explain order because it's just an observation (like everything in science), not a cause. Try to find a natural cause for chemistry and "natural" laws.

Enmos said:
Then how can you know order comes from God ?
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Order comes from consciousness and consciousness is another word for God.

Enmos said:
You know order comes from God because of love ?? :D
Care to explain that ?
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when humans love each other, they create order. when they hate each other, they create disorder (war for example). the same applies for material things like chemicals, stars etc... the thing that scientists call the electromagnetic "law" is love itself, and it creates order in chaos.

the bible says that god is love. god loves the earth, so he tries to pull it back to oneness.... and that's why there is "gravity" (love).

davewhite04 said:
No, but I believe it takes an intelligent being to create what we see now, I don't believe it can be explained away by chance.
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scientists don't explain it with chance, they explain it with natural laws like gravity and chemistry.
 
spidergoat said:
Why is it "obvious" that an intelligent being is behind this universe?
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intelligence is everywhere. we humans aren't special... we aren't the only ones who are ruled by the intelligence that religions call god. animals, plants and matter is controlled by intelligence. intelligence is a fundamental component that everything in the universe has. like the 4 elements. consciousness is the 5th element. socrates said so

take some alchemy classes, not chemistry
 
The notion of everything consisting of four elements went out with the ark. As as for consciousness, is it an elements or an epiphnomenon of cerebral activity or something else entirely ?

Don't you know that alchemy was abandoned for very good reasons ?
 
Yorda said:
EVEN an omniscient being can't know the future because you can't know what does not exist. The future isn't predetermined... it isn't created... it is something that we and God continuously create with our free will. In 7 days. Today is friday, the 5th day. The creation (universe) is a neverending process.

The future can't be known, but possible futures can be predicted.



Chemistry does not explain order because it's just an observation (like everything in science), not a cause. Try to find a natural cause for chemistry and "natural" laws.



Order comes from consciousness and consciousness is another word for God.



when humans love each other, they create order. when they hate each other, they create disorder (war for example). the same applies for material things like chemicals, stars etc... the thing that scientists call the electromagnetic "law" is love itself, and it creates order in chaos.

the bible says that god is love. god loves the earth, so he tries to pull it back to oneness.... and that's why there is "gravity" (love).



scientists don't explain it with chance, they explain it with natural laws like gravity and chemistry.
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Omniscience means all-knowing, which includes past, present and future, as most Christians will tell you. The alternative is to limit " Almight God's " power.
 
davewhite04 said:
By study and observation.

Do you believe that DNA could be assembled by a random bunch of chemicals reacting to each other(which got here from nothing, if you believe in the big bang)?
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What did you study that scientists have neglected ?

Who has told you the big bang came from nowhere ? There are various possible explanations. In any event, if you believe it was created, you then have to explain where the creator came from .

Why do you believe that wha tyou call a bunch of chemicals cannot react in such a way as to produce DNA ? You are probably assumimg it would need to have happened overnight. Think in terms of a few millions years and you may decide it is possible after all.
 
Yorda said:
scientists don't explain it with chance, they explain it with natural laws like gravity and chemistry.
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Many scientists will say we got here by chance, this planets placement in the solar system(and universe) is perfect for life by chance, we were lucky. But we aren't remarkable, and some scientists will add, there is perhaps multiple universes being created now, which makes us even less remarkable.
 
Myles said:
What did you study that scientists have neglected ?

Who has told you the big bang came from nowhere ? There are various possible explanations. In any event, if you believe it was created, you then have to explain where the creator came from .

Why do you believe that wha tyou call a bunch of chemicals cannot react in such a way as to produce DNA ? You are probably assumimg it would need to have happened overnight. Think in terms of a few millions years and you may decide it is possible after all.
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Scientists haven't neglected anything. They discovered DNA and they are using their knowledge of genetics to help mankind.

I didn't say the big bang came from nowhere. It is commonly agreed that it came from a singularity.

Lets assume the DNA was created over millions of years.

How was it coded?
 
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