If God has created the Universe and everything in it, then ...

Evolution is not "pretty new actually"; it's been around for millions of years.There is an elegant, empirically testable theory which explains how it works.

There is no such evidence for god's existence.

The theory or the concept of evolution as we know it is pretty new is what I meant.

"testable theory"? You mean because they can make fruit flies grow 7 wings by blasting them with radio activity we can assume that mutations must have occurred to explain the variety of life we now have?
 
It just establishes the fact that some people wrote about God.

None of which actually questions God's knowledge.

Fine, not that it answers anything. You still can't have your cake and eat it too, dave, sorry.
 
I really don't want to explain my logic for believing the God I do, I can not see why it is relevant and can only see it leading to a pointless battle of words.

A word of caution:

Do not expect that people will readily ease into the prospect of being burnt alive for all eternity.

A person saying they believe in God tends to imply this person is sure to be safe from hell. This can be very uncomfortable for some people, reminding them of their most deep-seated fears, and it can make some people envious.

They, too, might want to have what you have, so they will question you on how you got it.

I think one must be careful to not underestimate how afraid, confused, and unhappy people might be, and how far they are willing to go in this - whether they themselves are aware of it or admit it, or not.
 
A word of caution:

Do not expect that people will readily ease into the prospect of being burnt alive for all eternity.

A person saying they believe in God tends to imply this person is sure to be safe from hell. This can be very uncomfortable for some people, reminding them of their most deep-seated fears, and it can make some people envious.

They, too, might want to have what you have, so they will question you on how you got it.

I think one must be careful to not underestimate how afraid, confused, and unhappy people might be, and how far they are willing to go in this - whether they themselves are aware of it or admit it, or not.

I doubt many people here actually fear hell.

You seem genuine so I will share my experience with you at some stage as you are certainly heading in the right direction.
 
If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that God has also created every choice that a person makes, every action a person performs.

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that everything that happens is up to God.

well free will was created as well, therefore people are able to make their own decisions and choose whether to go with gods word to get to your own self prochecy of getting to heaven. just a little thought. yes god created everything but to say everything is up to god, ultimately yes but not as a whole but what is based on individual actions, and group actions does it destroy or conserve what we were given.
 
well free will was created as well, therefore people are able to make their own decisions and choose whether to go with gods word to get to your own self prochecy of getting to heaven. just a little thought. yes god created everything but to say everything is up to god, ultimately yes but not as a whole but what is based on individual actions, and group actions does it destroy or conserve what we were given.

How do you know God created everything ?

Of what value is free will to those who die as a result of natural disasters, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, landslides and so on? Are these not part of God's creation ?
 
How do you know God created everything ?

Of what value is free will to those who die as a result of natural disasters, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, landslides and so on? Are these not part of God's creation ?

well how do you know God didnt create everything?

and everything has a good and bad.
if everyones ideal landscape was given to them, there wouldnt be any way to appreciate or feel different emotions and whatever, if someone was to say i dont want to die, its inevitable, we were given this land this way because of balance. briefly.
 
well how do you know God didnt create everything?

and everything has a good and bad.
if everyones ideal landscape was given to them, there wouldnt be any way to appreciate or feel different emotions and whatever, if someone was to say i dont want to die, its inevitable, we were given this land this way because of balance. briefly.

You didn't answer my question. Try again. How do you know God made everything ? I assume you had some reason for saying that, so what is it?

If I understand you correctly , your view is that when some people die as a result of a natural disaster. the rest of us appreciate the world we are living in better than we otherwise would have done. So what are the people who died supposed to appreciate ?
 
Evening all!

The core concept is simply that a higher force, whatever it may be, may have led to the creation of our universe. I see nothing ridiculous with this.

However, the question of "where did it all come from" ORIGINALLY is one that is both intensely fascinating, yet ultimately impossible to explain.

God Himself explained this. God said 'From everlasting to everlasting I AM.' The Bible goes on to tell us (and God later confirms this in us when we're ready to understand it) that God 'Had no beginning and has no end.'


Re: the subject of belief.

It is one thing to *believe* in God (YHWH - the Hebrew God), but quite another to *experience* God, to *know* unequivocally that He exists because you have met Him - i.e. He has made Himself manifest in your life. The same is true of Yeshua (Jesus) Christ.

Many years ago I used to *believe* that God exists, but now, by His Grace, I *know* that God exists, as does Jesus. That said, I believe the following statement to be true.

'For those who believe in God, no explanation in necessary. For those who do *not* believe in God, no explanation is possible.'

*Anyone* can know God if they seek Him with their heart, and if they seek Him they will find Him. This is a promise of God, and in over half a century I've never once seen it fail.

Hello there, Greenman!

Couple of points.

1. Hell (Sheol in Hebrew - Hades in Greek) is simply the common grave of all mankind. I think you're confusing it with the Lake of Fire, which I'll explain further in a moment.

2. The Bible tells us 'The wages for sin is death.' Please note that it says 'Death,' not torture. The concept of burning forever, being burned mercilessly in an 'Unquenchable fire' is not a Biblical concept at all. It works for fearmongers who'd rather preach fear than Love, but nobody is going to burn forever in anything God created. If eternal *torture* awaited unrepentant sinners then Christ (Who's propitiatory sacrificial death on the cross paid for the sins of all mankind) would still be on the cross. He isn't.

3. The Lake of Fire (Gehenna in Greek) AKA 'The second death,' (meaning the final or eternal punishment - an everlasting cutting off from God's Kingdom) was 'Created for the devil and his angels.' This fire (metaphorical or otherwise) *does* burn 'Forever' and everything that is thrown into it is *destroyed.* Think though, 'Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire.' Death isn't a material phenomenon subject to physical burning and neither is Hades. Neither then are those resurrected souls (people are resurrected in spirit and don't have physical bodies that *could* burn) who remain unrepentant going to burn forever. 'Their portion is in the Lake of Fire' (the second death), meaning they'll be destroyed (subject to death) a second time - a final time. These will be people who don't WANT to be in God's Kingdom.

4. Mankind (or humankind) was given the gift of choice and told to 'Choose wisely.' We have always had limited free will and are counseled to 'Choose life' many times in the Bible. Yeshua said 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to The Father but by Me.' To choose Life is to choose Christ. Simple.

5. God *is* Love, and the actions of Love are restorative whenever possible, not punitive. God said 'I desire that *none* should be destroyed but that *all* should *attain to* repentance.' Yahweh says it Himself - He doesn't want to destroy anyone.

God didn't want to send the flood either, but people wouldn't listen to Him. Noah spent seventy years *pleading* with people to listen and mend their ways, and only fifty years building the ark. Think about that. While you're at it, please consider the Ten Commandments. The first four deal with what God wants us to render to HIM, but the other six are what we are to render to each other. To me, that speaks volumes about the Character of Yahweh.

Yahweh is our Father and He loves us. He tells us that we love Him because He first loved us. The Bible also tells us 'For God so loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone *exercising* faith in Him might *not* be destroyed, but have everlasting life.'

Does this sound like a tyrannical, sadistic God to you? A Creator who loved His Creation so much that He gave His Own and Only Son to pay the price for our sins? (Remember, the wages for sin = death.) Don't you think it is inconsistent with everything we know about our Father to suppose for one moment that He would torture anyone for any length of time, let alone eternity?

Eternal torment is a lie made up by power-hungry men. It has nothing to do with God or our Lord Jesus Christ, and you won't find support for it in any Bible.

Shalom aleikhem - Jesse.
 
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God Himself explained this. God said 'From everlasting to everlasting I AM.' The Bible goes on to tell us (and God later confirms this in us when we're ready to understand it) that God 'Had no beginning and has no end.'

The contrived explanations from the indoctrinated are always void of any rationale or reason, as those characteristics were wiped from their minds a long time ago. With the precision of a surgeon, theists cut from the swath of scriptures that which suits their agendas and supports their indoctrination. No logic of any kind is required. Of course, most theists really have no idea what is written in the bible as their knowledge is primarily made up of childhood Sunday school stories of Noah and Joshua. What they don't know is that both Noah and Joshua were two of the most sadistic and cruel mass murderers of their time. Their commander in chief being the Abrahamic god, barking out orders of genocide and slaughter.

Re: the subject of belief.

It is one thing to *believe* in God (YHWH - the Hebrew God), but quite another to *experience* God, to *know* unequivocally that He exists because you have met Him - i.e. He has made Himself manifest in your life. The same is true of Yeshua (Jesus) Christ.

It is quite the mentally psychotic conundrum for theists who claim they have "met" their gods, as there would be a convention of gods filling the universe each time someone made that claim. Even most theologians would consider that complete nonsense.

Many years ago I used to *believe* that God exists, but now, by His Grace, I *know* that God exists, as does Jesus. That said, I believe the following statement to be true.

'For those who believe in God, no explanation in necessary. For those who do *not* believe in God, no explanation is possible.'

*Anyone* can know God if they seek Him with their heart, and if they seek Him they will find Him. This is a promise of God, and in over half a century I've never once seen it fail.

The deluded theist embraces the mystery-mongering found in contrived explanations that don't explain anything at all. In fact, "no explanation is possible."

If eternal *torture* awaited unrepentant sinners then Christ (Who's propitiatory sacrificial death on the cross paid for the sins of all mankind) would still be on the cross. He isn't.

The Christian wears a cross, the instrument of torture and death, as a symbol of piety. One wonders what they would wear had the Christ been killed recently, little electric chairs?

3. The Lake of Fire (Gehenna in Greek) AKA 'The second death,' (meaning the final or eternal punishment - an everlasting cutting off from God's Kingdom) was 'Created for the devil and his angels.' This fire (metaphorical or otherwise) *does* burn 'Forever' and everything that is thrown into it is *destroyed.* Think though, 'Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire.' Death isn't a material phenomenon subject to physical burning and neither is Hades. Neither then are those resurrected souls (people are resurrected in spirit and don't have physical bodies that *could* burn) who remain unrepentant going to burn forever. 'Their portion is in the Lake of Fire' (the second death), meaning they'll be destroyed (subject to death) a second time - a final time. These will be people who don't WANT to be in God's Kingdom.

The childhood fantasies of theists are strange indeed. They contrive the most ridiculous explanations to the magic and mystery of their cult, as if delusion is a prerequisite to understanding.

4. Mankind (or humankind) was given the gift of choice and told to 'Choose wisely.' We have always had limited free will and are counseled to 'Choose life' many times in the Bible. Yeshua said 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to The Father but by Me.' To choose Life is to choose Christ. Simple.

Simple-minded, perhaps. The fictitious character of Christ did not glean his values from the Old Testament, in fact, he clearly departed from them. He demanded his followers give up their families to follow him.

"If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Isn't this what modern cults do?

5. God *is* Love, and the actions of Love are restorative whenever possible, not punitive. God said 'I desire that *none* should be destroyed but that *all* should *attain to* repentance.' Yahweh says it Himself - He doesn't want to destroy anyone.

Here's where the ignorance of the theist shines most brightly, in the words of their own doctrines, which they know very little about, but find themselves extolling the virtues of the cruel and immoral Abrahamic god. One could fill pages with quotes from the Old Testament in which god demands the extinction of these peoples and the genocide of those peoples. The stories of Lot, Noah, Moses and Joshua are some of the most vile and despicable acts of violence ever conceived.

The ethnic cleansing of Joshua is indistinguishable from Hitlers invasion of Poland. Of course, Yahweh made the demands.

God didn't want to send the flood either, but people wouldn't listen to Him. Noah spent seventy years *pleading* with people to listen and mend their ways, and only fifty years building the ark. Think about that.

Yet, god took a dim view of humans and decided to wipe them from the face of the earth, save one family, along with the majority of "blameless" animals, as well. Think about that as you look for role models of upstanding moral value in the Old Testament.

While you're at it, please consider the Ten Commandments. The first four deal with what God wants us to render to HIM, but the other six are what we are to render to each other. To me, that speaks volumes about the Character of Yahweh.

The character of Yahweh can be viewed thusly: "And the lord said unto Moses, The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died."

This poor man was gathering firewood on Sunday. This certainly does speak volumes about the Character of Yahweh.

Yahweh is our Father and He loves us. He tells us that we love Him because He first loved us. The Bible also tells us 'For God so loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone *exercising* faith in Him might *not* be destroyed, but have everlasting life.'

The central doctrine of Christianity is the atonement for the "Original Sin," that of forever paying for Eve having eaten the apple of knowledge.

Does this sound like a tyrannical, sadistic God to you? A Creator who loved His Creation so much that He gave His Own and Only Son to pay the price for our sins? (Remember, the wages for sin = death.) Don't you think it is inconsistent with everything we know about our Father to suppose for one moment that He would torture anyone for any length of time, let alone eternity?

Yes, it does sound like a tyrannical, sadistic god, who would condemn every generation afterward of painful toiling and childbirth, respectively, simply for the eating of an apple. A vindictive, sadomasochistic, vicious god, indeed.

Eternal torment is a lie made up by power-hungry men. It has nothing to do with God or our Lord Jesus Christ, and you won't find support for it in any Bible.

Pages upon pages of cruel and immoral murderous rampages are supported and written in the bible, something conveniently left out by Jesse.
 
What they don't know is that both Noah and Joshua were two of the most sadistic and cruel mass murderers of their time. Their commander in chief being the Abrahamic god, barking out orders of genocide and slaughter.

You have written some nonsense, but this takes the biscuit.

I mean you don't even believe that these people existed.
 
greenberg,

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that God has also created every choice that a person makes, every action a person performs.

Hi greenberg, how are you?
I doubt very much that a choice is an object, I think it is part and parcel of intelligence.
I believe that we are very limited in our intelligence, in the grand scheme of things, and as such we don't really possess much choice, although from our perspective it would appear as though we are overun with it.

Actions are dependant on the choices we make, which come about through our intelligence. This is my opinion.
I think, what's important to God is, if we turn to Him for guidance, and what we choose to do in this world, for our own personal benefit, remains only in this world. These type of actions are preset, like any system, and are predictable to God without Him having to be constantly watching.

If God has created the Universe and everything in it, this means that everything that happens is up to God.

I believe nature has a set system, which just repeats itself over and over again. God has a role within nature which is creation, maintainence, and dissolution. Outside of that I doubt he has need to intervene, unless asked to do so by his pure devotees.

:) My two cents.

Jan.
 
Evening Q!

It's almost 11 p.m. here, so I don't have time to address your numerous errors, cynical accusations, and poor understanding tonight, but you can be sure that I'll get back to you tomorrow - God Willing.

Shalom aleikhem - Jesse.
P.S. Not all Christians wear crosses. Personally, I do not, but I understand the reasoning of those who do.
 
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