I need some answers from Atheists...
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posted by ~Raithere
You've missed my point entirely. One cannot desire something that one already has. If a being knows everything and is everything then there can be no desire, no reason to act.
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You missed the point entirerly...
Before He created the material world he was only everything ---potentially.
God is an object of worship....there was nothing to worship him then.
He had the potential to be all things...these attributes yet un-expressed...to be a father , a son, to be a healer , a savior ect...
To be Healer there had to be something sick, to be a Saviour there had to be something lost....
He created the heavens and earth, and stretched them out.
He created the angels, and He created Man, in His own image.
He put them on free-moral agency...and they fell.
He came down as one of us, and died to save us....So He could be worshiped and loved by a people from their heart, not because they had to......His plan is a masterpeice.
The spirit of man can not see the things of God, they are spiritually discerned....
That's why Jesus said, "you must be born again".... to see the kingdom of God.
You've missed my point entirely. One cannot desire something that one already has. If a being knows everything and is everything then there can be no desire, no reason to act.
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You missed the point entirerly...
Before He created the material world he was only everything ---potentially.
God is an object of worship....there was nothing to worship him then.
He had the potential to be all things...these attributes yet un-expressed...to be a father , a son, to be a healer , a savior ect...
To be Healer there had to be something sick, to be a Saviour there had to be something lost....
He created the heavens and earth, and stretched them out.
He created the angels, and He created Man, in His own image.
He put them on free-moral agency...and they fell.
He came down as one of us, and died to save us....So He could be worshiped and loved by a people from their heart, not because they had to......His plan is a masterpeice.
The spirit of man can not see the things of God, they are spiritually discerned....
That's why Jesus said, "you must be born again".... to see the kingdom of God.
So God created everything simply to realize his potential? People get sick, suffer, and die so he can play at being the good guy?
Then what's the whole sin, repent or burn in hell thing about?
Did he just want to realize his potential to be a tyrant?
~Raithere
So God created everything simply to realize his potential? People get sick, suffer, and die so he can play at being the good guy?
Then what's the whole sin, repent or burn in hell thing about?
Did he just want to realize his potential to be a tyrant?
~Raithere
Thats a fair question.
If you read this it can explain it better that I.
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Then what's the whole sin, repent or burn in hell thing about?
Did he just want to realize his potential to be a tyrant?
~Raithere
Thats a fair question.
If you read this it can explain it better that I.
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
TheVisitor,
Why didn't you just say yes? It would have been much quicker.
Your passage basically says God does it because he can. So if when I die I find myself before God and he asks me "Why did you sin" I'm simply going to answer "Because I can". A God that would then banish me would be a hipocrit, and I'd rather not spend eternity with him.
Why didn't you just say yes? It would have been much quicker.
Your passage basically says God does it because he can. So if when I die I find myself before God and he asks me "Why did you sin" I'm simply going to answer "Because I can". A God that would then banish me would be a hipocrit, and I'd rather not spend eternity with him.
Jesus stood at Heaven's gates for Peter..
'watch the gates for me, Jeus, " said Peter, "i have to leave for a bit.."
this man came to the gates.
"who are you?" said Jesus
"i am a good man and was a father to a son"
"what did you do?" said Jesus
"i was a carpenter" answered the man
"what was your son like?" asked Jesus
"he was a good son and had holes in his hands and legs."
"FATHER?" asked Jesus
"Pinnochio?!" asked the man
'watch the gates for me, Jeus, " said Peter, "i have to leave for a bit.."
this man came to the gates.
"who are you?" said Jesus
"i am a good man and was a father to a son"
"what did you do?" said Jesus
"i was a carpenter" answered the man
"what was your son like?" asked Jesus
"he was a good son and had holes in his hands and legs."
"FATHER?" asked Jesus
"Pinnochio?!" asked the man
Persol said
Why didn't you just say yes? It would have been much quicker.
So if when I die I find myself before God and he asks me "Why did you sin" I'm simply going to answer "Because I can". A God that would then banish me would be a hipocrit, and I'd rather not spend eternity with him.
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Don't put words in peoples mouth.
God said to Cain after he turned down Cains offering.....
"But still, If you will do as your brother, all will be well."
Cain was given a choise, even a second chance of sorts, and he chose not to."
Instead he murdered his brother.
You have a choise too, it's just God has always known what that choise was going to be.
Why didn't you just say yes? It would have been much quicker.
So if when I die I find myself before God and he asks me "Why did you sin" I'm simply going to answer "Because I can". A God that would then banish me would be a hipocrit, and I'd rather not spend eternity with him.
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Don't put words in peoples mouth.
God said to Cain after he turned down Cains offering.....
"But still, If you will do as your brother, all will be well."
Cain was given a choise, even a second chance of sorts, and he chose not to."
Instead he murdered his brother.
You have a choise too, it's just God has always known what that choise was going to be.
Raithere and Persol,
If I may take a stab at your questions. They’re somewhat connected so just bare with me. When god asks you "Why did you sin?" I think a better response would be "Because I couldn't stop." The truth is all of us sin and we can not stop sinning. If someone thinks they can I would like to see them try.
However, from god’s perspective this puts him in a good position. This means we need him to accept us even though we have sinned. But, God can't accept us with our sin. I'm not sure of his reasoning, but I do know this: he is perfect, I am not, and as God he sets the rules. So what do we do now? Well must go to Jesus (you knew he was going to come into play sometime) and believe in him because he is willing to take the bullet (the penalty for our sin) in our place so that we may be pleasing and acceptable to God. In the end God gets his glory by saving us from sin, we thank him (more glory) and get to chill with him in the "happy place" for eternity. Woooo!
Now that's great for that guy but what about the other guy? You know the one who doesn't ask Jesus (there is that name again) to take the bullet? Well that guy also stands before God and again the rules are applied. Do I see sin on this man? Although the answer this time is yes (no Jesus) and he can no longer hang with God. Not Gods preferred thing to do but none the less the rules are upheld and by that he gets glory because we are forced to play by his rules.
Moral of the story, It is all about God's glory and God is a glory hound!
Probably raised more questions then it answered.
z
If I may take a stab at your questions. They’re somewhat connected so just bare with me. When god asks you "Why did you sin?" I think a better response would be "Because I couldn't stop." The truth is all of us sin and we can not stop sinning. If someone thinks they can I would like to see them try.
However, from god’s perspective this puts him in a good position. This means we need him to accept us even though we have sinned. But, God can't accept us with our sin. I'm not sure of his reasoning, but I do know this: he is perfect, I am not, and as God he sets the rules. So what do we do now? Well must go to Jesus (you knew he was going to come into play sometime) and believe in him because he is willing to take the bullet (the penalty for our sin) in our place so that we may be pleasing and acceptable to God. In the end God gets his glory by saving us from sin, we thank him (more glory) and get to chill with him in the "happy place" for eternity. Woooo!
Now that's great for that guy but what about the other guy? You know the one who doesn't ask Jesus (there is that name again) to take the bullet? Well that guy also stands before God and again the rules are applied. Do I see sin on this man? Although the answer this time is yes (no Jesus) and he can no longer hang with God. Not Gods preferred thing to do but none the less the rules are upheld and by that he gets glory because we are forced to play by his rules.
Moral of the story, It is all about God's glory and God is a glory hound!
Probably raised more questions then it answered.
z
How easy it must be for you petty little humans to have a scapegoat. I've done something wrong.... instead of sitting down and working out within myself what i did and how to change i can just pass it all over to a dead jew. He has no say in the matter and everyone's happy. What a croc of shit.
We have to work it out now more than ever - we have an example, an incentive, a goal and a means. At least we know what is wrong and can't kid ourselves about it anymore. Actually, it's much harder - too hard, actually - ask any Jew or Muslim... Fortunately the dead Jew (who was resurrected by God) has a say because He inherited God's authority.
Even if God's existence could be proven, I would refuse to worship such a pompous, self-absorbed entity.
Jade
I don't think God's existence needs to be proven... The real question is prove that God doesn't exist?
I wouldn’t call God pompous, simply because he's not excessively elevated or ornate. He rightfully deserves worship and praise. He did create everything. I often want worship and I haven't even done anything near great, even by our standards. Nor would I call him self-absorbed. He has done more and cared more about us more then we deserve. Besides, who else are you going to worship? Don't kid yourself, everyone worships someone or something. Just ask yourself. Where does my time go? Where does my money go? Where do my thoughts go? The answers to those questions will point to who or what you worship. Most often people worship themselves. I like to also however I find it hard to rationalize. How could I rationalize worshiping myself? I can't even control my own life. Maybe I'll get hit by a bus. Maybe a tree will fall on me tonight. I’m really not all that special no matter what my mom says. The day will come when I die and I will be forgotten. Anyway you go about it, I have relatively no control in my life. God on the other hand is in control of everything. I may not like what he's doing or what he allows to happen in my life but ultimately he is the only thing that is constant and with him I do have a purpose. Why not worship God?
I don't think God's existence needs to be proven... The real question is prove that God doesn't exist?
I wouldn’t call God pompous, simply because he's not excessively elevated or ornate. He rightfully deserves worship and praise. He did create everything. I often want worship and I haven't even done anything near great, even by our standards. Nor would I call him self-absorbed. He has done more and cared more about us more then we deserve. Besides, who else are you going to worship? Don't kid yourself, everyone worships someone or something. Just ask yourself. Where does my time go? Where does my money go? Where do my thoughts go? The answers to those questions will point to who or what you worship. Most often people worship themselves. I like to also however I find it hard to rationalize. How could I rationalize worshiping myself? I can't even control my own life. Maybe I'll get hit by a bus. Maybe a tree will fall on me tonight. I’m really not all that special no matter what my mom says. The day will come when I die and I will be forgotten. Anyway you go about it, I have relatively no control in my life. God on the other hand is in control of everything. I may not like what he's doing or what he allows to happen in my life but ultimately he is the only thing that is constant and with him I do have a purpose. Why not worship God?
"Ey, what'cha gona du? I'm Gahd."
You next post really had nothing to do with my question.
Anybody else think that this is totally fucked up behavior for a 'perfect' being.
~Raithere
Sorry, I agree with Persol. That sure sounds like a 'yes' to me; God is an asshole because he can be. "All praise the great Mafia Don in the sky."
You next post really had nothing to do with my question.
So God set us up deliberately, knowing we would fail his test, then sets himself to 'redeem' us from himself, so that we'll all thank him for being so cool to us? :bugeye:
Anybody else think that this is totally fucked up behavior for a 'perfect' being.
They're his rules! He could change them to be anything. To say that God does something he would rather not is to either admit he is not omnipotent or that he's simply insane.
~Raithere
Sorry, don't have time to read the whole thread, but I saw bible quoting...
The bible is flawed. No use quoting from it. Here's proof:
- http://www.vorsoft.com/faith/bible/flaws.htm
- http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html
- http://www.uib.no/zoo/brage/bible/1innerr.html
- http://www.wordwiz72.com/contr.txt
- http://www.objectivethought.com/articles/nogod.html
- http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/contradict.htm
- http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/contradict2.htm
- http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/funda.htm
- http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
- http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/freewill.html
- http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm
- http://www.wordwiz72.com/bible.html#Contradictions
- http://www.deism.com/biblevotes.htm
For those who whish to look up the verses from the bible themselves to verify/dispute the contradictions listed above:
- http://bible.gospelcom.net/
The KJV version is the one most versions agree with. The NIV version is unreliable, as they change the meanings and wording where they find contradictions, because the editors of that version believe the bible is flawless. If you read the original untranslated versions in Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., though, you can see it's been changed. I realise some of the contradictions in those lists can be refuted, but not all.
Intelligent design is by no means necessary for the complexity we see. Evolution explains biological complexity. The laws of physics explain the complexity we see in the universe around us.
Here's an article on the subject of intelligent design:
- http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
And some more about evolution, to refute arguments from creationists:
- http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
- http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/evolution.html
- http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/
- http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html
- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html [Something everyone should read]
The bible is flawed. No use quoting from it. Here's proof:
- http://www.vorsoft.com/faith/bible/flaws.htm
- http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html
- http://www.uib.no/zoo/brage/bible/1innerr.html
- http://www.wordwiz72.com/contr.txt
- http://www.objectivethought.com/articles/nogod.html
- http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/contradict.htm
- http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/contradict2.htm
- http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/funda.htm
- http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
- http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/freewill.html
- http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm
- http://www.wordwiz72.com/bible.html#Contradictions
- http://www.deism.com/biblevotes.htm
For those who whish to look up the verses from the bible themselves to verify/dispute the contradictions listed above:
- http://bible.gospelcom.net/
The KJV version is the one most versions agree with. The NIV version is unreliable, as they change the meanings and wording where they find contradictions, because the editors of that version believe the bible is flawless. If you read the original untranslated versions in Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., though, you can see it's been changed. I realise some of the contradictions in those lists can be refuted, but not all.
Intelligent design is by no means necessary for the complexity we see. Evolution explains biological complexity. The laws of physics explain the complexity we see in the universe around us.
Here's an article on the subject of intelligent design:
- http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
And some more about evolution, to refute arguments from creationists:
- http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
- http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/evolution.html
- http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/
- http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html
- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html [Something everyone should read]
The burden of proof is on the one who makes a positive assertion (i.e. God exists). You cannot prove a negative. For example, you cannot prove to me that unicorns don't exist. If I claim that they exist, then I have to prove it.
If God is so bloody great, then why does he need worship and praise from such lowly creatures?
If you mean worship as in "reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power", then I don't worship anything because I don't believe in a divine being or supernatural power.
If you mean worship as in "extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem", then I guess there are a lot of things that I worship, such as the universe and nature and all its subtle nuances. And most importantly, my fiancée Jane.
You believe God is the only thing that is constant. That requires faith. Faith is belief without proof, and therefore of little value to me. If you think that God is the only thing that can give purpose to your life, then that's fine. But I don't need an imaginary friend to find purpose in my own life.
Because I have no reason to believe God exists. The end.
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Re: "Ey, what'cha gona du? I'm Gahd."
Indeed that is strange behavior. Perhaps God went insane after all that time by himself with no one to worship him. Poor God.
Why do people keep on saying this??? This is not true! This is a logical fallacy. See the last link in my previous post.
One obvious way you can prove a negative is by rewording it as a positive statement.
The burden of proof is on whoever makes a claim that gets challenged.
Doh! Thank you for pointing out my poor choice of words. What I meant to say was that one cannot prove the non-existence most things, including God.