I need some answers from Atheists...

Originally posted by Alpha
If the attributes which we assign to a hypothetical object or being are self-contradictory, then we can conclude that it cannot exist, and therefore does not exist.
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Fair enough. So you are basically talking about logical proof and not scientific proof. Your logical proof of the non-existence of God must assume, of course, that our logic is not flawed and that we do not have incomplete or inaccurate information. As you stated, if this is not the case, there may be something we're missing. I'm not suggesting this is the case, but just acknowledging the possibility, however remote I believe it to be. But do you believe that all definitions of God are self-contradictory? If so, could you explain further?

logic is self consistent and coherent (as far as we know) [my emphasis]
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My point exactly.
 
Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
But do you believe that all definitions of God are self-contradictory? If so, could you explain further?
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As long as they require god to be omnipotent. But then, how could god have created the universe if he WASN'T omnipotent?
 
I understand what you are saying. I agree an omnipotent being is illogical. I suppose you could have a God who has the power to create the universe but is not necessarily omnipotent. But that just takes the whole point out of what is most often conceived as God.
 
God has to be infinite. We're finite; He's infinite. And He was omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. If He isn't, then He can't be God: knows all things, all places because of His omnipresence. Omniscient makes Him omnipresent. He is a being; He's not like the wind. He is a being; He dwells in a house, but being omniscient, knowing all things, makes Him omnipresent, because He knows everything that's going on.
 
I see we're on the subject of square circles and large rocks again.

How does putting two words together, to create an unimaginable concept, validly demonstrate that God is a paradox that can't be resolved? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you're trying to do? If the Pharaos didn't create upside down pyramids, does it mean they couldn't, wouldn't, or that there is no such thing?

An illogical statement does nothing to prove something (such as omnipotence), illogical.

You could just as well say: Can God create a black white, an up down or a two 50?

It's a strawman, as some here would say. Take any unknown variable and a known false, add a little boolean magic AND - et voila! The unknown becomes false. All bow to the omnipotence of Logic!

Just a few thoughts:
Something inconceivable is not necessarily false.

The Archetypal Form comes before the Type - true creation originates from primary "source material" and intellectual principles.
A "rock larger than God" takes 1)a phenomenon already created and perceived (secondary - perceived - source) and 2)uses that reality as a leg to stand on to question its creator (primary - unperceived - source). There is no knowledge to be gained doing this. Maybe understanding, which is why we use logic as a tool, but no new knowledge.

If you spin a square fast enough, it does become a circle. :)

The Bible puts it this way:
Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?

Isa.29
6 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?

Not to mention the pot who once said "There is no potter! There is only clay!"

BTW. If you dig a hole deep enough, nothing stops you from building an inverted pyramid.
 
If you spin a square fast enough, it does become a circle.
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Well it actually remains a square- it just appears like a circle to the imperfect human eye. When it stops spinning you'll find out it hasn't changed at all- it always was and always will be a square. It's about interpretation of what you see. You see a circle but it isn't, you see a ufo, it might be a weather balloon, you see a god, it might be nothing. My favourite saying: "might be, might not."

BTW. If you dig a hole deep enough, nothing stops you from building an inverted pyramid.
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Only if you use a triangle shovel :D
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
If the Pharaos didn't create upside down pyramids, does it mean they couldn't, wouldn't, or that there is no such thing?
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Note that upside-down pyramids are not illogical, just not very stable.

There is no knowledge to be gained doing this. Maybe understanding, which is why we use logic as a tool, but no new knowledge.
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I agree. That's why I was arguing with Alpha in the first place. :)

BTW. If you dig a hole deep enough, nothing stops you from building an inverted pyramid.
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It is possible to build an inverted pyramid and have it balance, although this would be extremely difficult and it would have to be protected from any outside forces that could knock it down (like a gentle breeze).
 
i wonder if some of you heard of faith. peopel used to look to god for stuff that happend but now since we have sceince people are getting arrogent and saying, we know everything, we dont need god to help us.
 
I've heard of faith. I just think it's a very poor way of deciding what to believe. Yes, people used to look to God/gods to explain why things happened, like why it rained, why the wind blew, et cetera.

The advances in science have allowed us to find out why these kinds of things actually do happen. But people who use science do not claim to know everything. Most atheists will admit that they cannot know that God doesn't exist, but will believe that he doesn't because there is no evidence to show that he does. On the other hand, theists (often out of ignorance) use the concept of God to help them understand why things are the way they are. They often claim to know that God exists, and their answer to all the questions they don't currently know the answers to is "Goddidit". Now that is arrogance!
 
How does putting two words together, to create an unimaginable concept, validly demonstrate that God is a paradox that can't be resolved? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you're trying to do?
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Unfortunately, some paradoxical concepts are imaginable. It is not for this reason they're impossible, but because they are logically incoherent/inconsistent. The idea of a square circle is logically incoherent, and therefor impossible. The definition of a square and a circle are mututally exclusive.
An illogical statement does nothing to prove something (such as omnipotence), illogical.
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It does if it illustrates a point.
You could just as well say: Can God create a black white, an up down or a two 50?
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Yes, I suppose you could. They're still illogical, and not even an omnipotent being can do that.
It's a strawman, as some here would say. Take any unknown variable and a known false, add a little boolean magic AND - et voila! The unknown becomes false. All bow to the omnipotence of Logic!
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Can you give an example of this? Sounds like you're trying to use logic to disprove logic. :rolleyes:
Just a few thoughts:
Something inconceivable is not necessarily false.
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No, but something logically incoherent is.
 
No, but something logically incoherent is.

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Logic is only a "best guess".

And by that, Man is "logical incoherent" by God's standard.
God said "the wages of sin are death", Man gambled God was a liar, and took the devil's lie instead for truth.

Mankind as a species, would be extinct.
They destoyed themselves before, by eating from the tree of knowledge without the character of God to handle such power and would again if God did not intervene just before all flesh is lost.
Only God's spirit anoiting the earth has kept Man alive these last 40 or 50 years, for the purpose of uniting with His Bride, through the revealing of the son of man from heaven.
The very moment His Spirit is completely withdrawn, Man's destruction by his own evil nature will begin.

The knowledge of the tree of "good and evil", can only be defeated by the knowledge of the tree of life, which comes by trails and testing and chastening of God unto His sons, and only by the grace of God which has come to redeem men through Jesus Christ.


1 Cor 1:19 "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."
 
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Originally posted by TheVisitor
Logic is only a "best guess".
No. Logic works. The 'guess' part you speak of are the premises. Most problems pointed out with logical thinking are simply false premises. The logic is correct, but the information you are utlizaing is wrong. As a side note, nearly all religious 'proofs' start off with false/circular premises.

And by that, Man is "logical incoherent" by God's standard.
As usual, you jumped from one thing to try and prove something that is unrelated.

Mankind as a species, would be extinct.
Based on what exactly?

They destoyed themselves before, by eating from the tree of knowledge without the character of God to handle such power and would again if God did not intervene just before all flesh is lost.
I like to think I dine nightly at the tree of knowledge. I do not call on god to 'handle such power' for me, and see no reason to do so.

Only God's spirit anoiting the earth has kept Man alive these last 40 or 50 years, for the purpose of uniting with His Bride, through the revealing of the son of man from heaven.
I smell Branham again. It's kinda like that waft you get when you go look at the elephants at the zoo.
 
A prophet is a "mouthpeice of God"
If God has sent a message to "complete" the mystery of God...Rev 10:7, and He has, this message would have to come through a prophet. Amos 3:7, Mal. 4:5-6.....
The revelation of this "message" would be nessesary to speak the truth, not a part of it, as in denominational understanding but the "true" or complete "sayings of God.
Jesus Christ is the object of worship today, no one with understanding has their eyes any longer on a man.
His ministry was an introduction to the King.....just as John the Baptist introduced Jesus to the world the first time, and then his ministry was over.
The King is here.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God, in it's fullness.
And that Word is in His Bride.
 
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Originally posted by TheVisitor
A prophet is a "mouthpeice of God"
If Branham is the "mouthpiece of God", then God's medical plan must really suck.

I mean, it's fairly straight forward. Branham and many others all claims to be prophets or have prophetic visions. The visions of these people contradict each other, and a large portion never come true. Those which do come true are generally predictable or influencable. He has nothing over the rest of these 'prophets' except that his words seem to be wider spread because they are on tape. Yet you completely ignore that Branham has made false prophecies, which completely negates his claims and marks himn as just another loon.
 
Yet you completely ignore that Branham has made false prophecies, which completely negates his claims and marks himn as just another loon.
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He made no "false prophecies".
There are many statements made on the tapes of over 1100 messages covering nearly 20 years, where as a man, he say's "I believe as a privite student of the Word", and he was wrong.....this differs clearly from when He was under the anointing and says something as "thus saith the Lord".

Even John the Baptist who was under this same anointing in the Spirit of Elijah, said; "Is this Jesus the one or do we seek yet another",...... while he was in prison, awaiting his execution.

A prophet speaks for God, while under an anointing.....but is still a man as you or I and capable of mistakes.
God hides himself in such things from the wise and prudent to reveal it to babes such as willing to learn.
 
"Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be
hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the
chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously
deny it." -Richard Dawkins
 
This "world" has been pulled over your eyes, it is Satan's Eden.
He is the god of this evil age.
Jesus came to set the captives free, those born into the bondage of sin.

This "mind virus" ruse is just another lie from Satan to blind the people to the truth.
He has thousands of religions out there....any color you like.
If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choise.
If you like computer terminology, he'll make a new religion just for you......don't think he won't.
It's all about lies and dis-information.
The Illunimati are watching you...the eye in the sky.
Ancient astronauts......Aztec sun gods....
He has any flavor you like, but only Jesus Christ has the truth.

Death has a thousand faces, but life only has one.
 
Originally posted by TheVisitor
This "world" has been pulled over your eyes, it is Satan's Eden.
He is the god of this evil age.
Jesus came to set the captives free, those born into the bondage of sin.

This "mind virus" ruse is just another lie from Satan to blind the people to the truth.
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Brother, you wouldn't know truth if it were forcefully inserted into your rectum.

It's interesting to me that you clutch so desperately to what you think you know. I wonder, how did you come to "know" it? Surely you had to have weighed evidence and attempted to use that which used to be your mind to come to "reasonable" conclusions... but now you've poisoned your mind with what you think is "the word of god".

What happens if it turns out you're a sucker and have been listening to satan this whole time? He's supposedly tricky right? Well, maybe it is HIS scripture you cling to.. HE wrote your "holy" bible... HE is in your soul and is anxiously awaiting your arrival because you betrayed the one thing that the true god gave you....

your mind.

but yours is lost now to HIM that you claim to so despise.

it's a pity.
 
Nice touch......but I guess it will all "come out in the wash" won't it.
It's coming to a showdown, and it won't be the first time.
Elijah on Mount Carmel, one man against 400 schooled prophets of Baal....

He said "why don't you shout a little louder, maybe your god's on vacation".....and he can't hear you.

The fire of God came down, and consumed the offering, the wood and all the water.
I have a picture of the Pillar of Fire on my wall, several photographs taken in this generation. God has sent us prophets to led us out of the "wilderness of sin" pillars of fire, holy clouds, angels, miracles and has revealed His mighty hand to His people....and come Himself to receive them, today.
The Son of Man is being revealed from heaven, while the rest of the world is looking for the second coming...on down the road some day, the elect are already in it.
How could so great and mighty a work of God happened in this day and so many miss it....?
Because they received not a love of the truth, I...(God Himself), will send them stong delusion, that they might believe a lie and be damned by it.

This isn't some theology or theory.....it's a showdown every day.
The true sons of God are warriors, seasoned in battle...they won't back down or compromise on the Word of God.
Jesus was our example....and my goal is to be like Him.

We will tred the ashes of the wicked dead under the soles of our feet.
The Word of God can win any battle, just stay with the Word, only say what It says and you can not lose.
Jesus said ..."it is written".
This how He defeated Satan on every hand, and it's how we will do the same.
 
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Originally posted by TheVisitor

Jesus said ..."it is written".
.
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But the only reason you know that is because that is what is written. If I write to you "I am the truth, I am the way, you will know this by my writings", how can I expect you to believe me? If I write a book that says "this book is the truth, this book is the way.... " should I expect people a few hundred years from now to look back and think that book is the truth and the way?

You are blinded to your own ignorance. By your inability to see past your nose you exhibit the sins you so attempt to avoid by not looking past your nose.

This is the pity I speak of.
 
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