I need some answers from Atheists...

[Jenyar]

God is most often used as an explanation for that which we do not understand or refuse to accept.

If that were true you would still believe in God. That we try to explain and understand things is our nature - it doesn't change God's existence or even His involvement.

The universe will be the universe, interesting or boring, whether you believe in God or not. He is not 'some guy' - He is God. And actually, in a weird Gary Larson type of way, we are the anthropomorphic projections.

My life isn't incomprehensible enough that I feel the need to resort to spirits or gods. But is doesn't make sense to a sufficient degree that it makes a God who doesn't make sense all the more believable.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Jenyar
If that were true you would still believe in God.

I was saying that the concept of God is most often used to explain away the unknown (as you confirm below). That doens't mean that I personally do so.

That we try to explain and understand things is our nature - it doesn't change God's existence or even His involvement.

I agree... nor does our belief in him. Therefore if we wish to attempt to prove his existence we need to use some other measure.

The universe will be the universe, interesting or boring, whether you believe in God or not. He is not 'some guy'

I disagree. Using God as the answer to anything makes the question irrelevant. If not for those who dared to find out for themselves we would know almost nothing about the world around us. Those who dared to challenge the finality of the theistic answer are the ones responsible for most of what we know.

He is God. And actually, in a weird Gary Larson type of way, we are the anthropomorphic projections.

We look like God because God made us to look like him. Or it it, perhaps, the other way around? The thing I find inconceivable is that so many people find God to be conceivable. I cannot even entirely grasp something as inconsequential as the relation of my size as compared to the size of the Earth or the Sun. Yet somehow people all over the world declare to have a perfectly astute conception of God's relation to them.

My life isn't incomprehensible enough that I feel the need to resort to spirits or gods. But is doesn't make sense to a sufficient degree that it makes a God who doesn't make sense all the more believable.

What doesn't make sense? Maybe I can help explain.

~Raithere

 

[TheVisitor]

"A day to God is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day..".....365, 000 to 1 is the differential if you assume 1000 years is a day.

Heaven is a faster dimension than this.....just under 2C from "our" perspective. The ratio....2xC=372,000 miles per second. This is all movement by them, not just linear travel...so it's a vibration or frequency to us...365,000 is just under 372,000 which is 2xC.
At this vibration rate they would be out of phase with us, and not visible to our normal senses.

Now Hell is below, it may be slower....You heard it said you will be in torment for ever and ever...that is not eternity, but a very long time. The word used in the greek for this place means: "done away with........to the vanishing point." So the same time difference between heaven and earth...is also between earth and hell, making it out of phase with our senses to...and incredibly slow compared to us

The rich man in hell..lifts up his eyes..."please send Lazarus to bring me a drink, remember.....and was told "theres a great gulf fixed Lazarus cannot go to you or you to him..
A day to God is a thousand years, ......AND....a thousand years is a day..... Earth or this dimension of it.....is in the middle.

365,000 to 1.................1 to 365,000

And one day in hell is like a thousand years.....Jesus said something like that....said you would give your entire life, everything to trade just so your sins could be one less.
One day 1 to 365,250......each day of your life would be a thousand years in hell to pay.

The bible doesn't repete itself for nothing...every word has a proper meaning.
God created the heavens and the earth...it says in genesis, and it goes on to say, "and He framed the Worlds also".
Thats not speaking of the same thing.

It's clues are all through the scriptures..For example: To receieve the revelation of God a believer is "Quickened" up into heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
In another place it says: "He is the judge of the Quick and the Dead."

 

[one_raven]

Re: to person wondering on atheist..

Originally posted by alice
as for atheists.. man..they are shallow.. to think you know it all..when we still don't know 95% of our own universe..it's true reality.

atheists don't know if gravitons carry info to us..from other dimensions.. or what REALLY is the scoop on that wonderful, simple, pretty thing..we call light.

to be an athesist..is to be arrogantly shallow..

Actually, it is QUITE the opposite.

Most Atheists and Agnostics fully accept and state that we do not know everything.
Many of them contend that we do not know ANYTHING.
The reason we don't know is because it is exceedingly difficult to "prove" anything.
We have evidence that we can interpret and come to a logically sound best scenario theory.
Which is exactly WHY they are Atheists.
Since no one has come anywhere NEAR close to providing convincing evidence that God exists (or is required to exist for US to exists, which is the stance of many Theists).

Theists, on the other hand, think they have all the answers.
God is the answer to all questions.
God did it.
God made us in his image.
God created everything.
God made up the laws of physics that we can merely observe, and he can bend and break them when and if he wishes.

Even thought there is ZERO direct evidence of the existence of God, Theists KNOW that he exists.
That, my "open-minded" friend, is arrogant and shallow.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Why do scientist's see 27.4 billion years of light, if God created the world in 7-days

Who's ass did you pull 27.4 billion years from? Current estimates range from 13.4 (traditionally accepted) to a maximum of about 18 billion years.

Light....the billion's of years of light space they see through telescopes today ....it's being bent right back around in a circle.

Then how come we don't see ourselves?

365, 000 to 1 is the differential if you assume 1000 years is a day.
...
from heavens perspective, which is where God was speaking from when he gave the revelation to His prophets.

So when the Bible says Noah lived to 969 years what they really mean is (969 x 365,000 =) 353,685,000 years. That's one old dude.

Heaven is a faster dimension than this.....just under 2C from "our" perspective.

Funny, I missed that part of the Bible.

The ratio....2xC=372,000 miles per second. This is all movement by them, not just linear travel...so it's a vibration or frequency to us...365,000 is just under 372,000 which is 2xC. At this vibration rate they would be out of phase with us, and not visible to our normal senses.

What's this vibration crap? C is the speed of light, traveling in a straight line, in a vacuum. Out of phase, what does that mean? Did you make this up or are you borrowing from someone else?

So the same time difference between heaven and earth...is also between earth and hell, making it out of phase with our senses to...and incredibly slow compared to us

Man, what version of the Bible are you reading. None of this is in any of mine.

365,000 to 1.................1 to 365,000

25 or 6 to 4. Oh wait, that's Chicago. Sorry.

And one day in hell is like a thousand years.....

And so is reading one of your posts.

The bible doesn't repete itself for nothing...every word has a proper meaning.

Unlike that sentence.

God created the heavens and the earth...it says in genesis, and it goes on to say, "and He framed the Worlds also".

Maybe they're hanging on his bathroom wall.

It's clues are all through the scriptures...

So the Bible is kind of like "Where's Waldo" except with God wearing the funny hat?

In another place it says: "He is the judge of the Quick and the Dead."

Then I guess the slow can get away with murder.

Of course, in another place it says, "Jesus wept."



~Raithere

 

[alice]

to Dr. Lou Natic re: bible vs evolution

i find it interesting that the bible says..man is dust and formed from clay

and current science theory says cosmic dust which falls in TONS on the earth have all 21 amino acids..and perhaps interacted w/the crystallography of minerals..such as clay.

perfect templates..crystals, mirror sides for rna and dna..

so..i say yes ancient religions do have a huge amount of imagination and personal opinion, but there are words in them that are profound in their wisdom. And, in this case, somehow 'wanting' and seeking truth seems perhaps to have given a glimpse of it.

Truth is beauty and art. All who seek truth come to gave upon the same picture. Each writes what they see from their perception. If Truth is and unchanging.. and seeked earnestly will not a person, whether of faith, or a scientist come to it?

actually to me science is just a continuum of religion just as astronomy is a continuum of astrology and chemistry is the continuum of alchemy.

einstein said life is an illusion, albiet a stubborn one. if you see us from another perspective..we are just a causal process flowing through our reality we barely know cuz our senses are so limited.

 

[socialistprophet]

Raithere:::

oh, i loved your points!

Quote::

Please note that self-causation is an arbitrary and unproven concept and is equally applicable to the Universe as it is to a creator.

Self-Causation was exactly what i was trying to imply as the source of this higher power. I kinda failed though. However, you are right that the possibilities would also apply to the Universe, being that the Universe itself could have created itself. That is an excellent point! However, wouldnt this suggest that the universe itself was of some intelligence? And if so, couldnt the universe itself be our higher power??

quote:::

Two is that particles do actually come from nothing. They are known as virtual particles because of their brief duration but they are quite real and their existence has been proven in empirical experiments. They are caused by quantum vacuum fluctuations whereby energy is 'borrowed' from the vacuum and then returned.

That's what i was talking about... i called it antimatter or whatnot. To be honest, i dont know a lot about the world of physics and such.... however, you left yourself open there. See, these particles do come from somewhere: the vacuum.

And ive heard about the theory about the universe being one of these particles... and it's expansion and everything. I think it's super neato.

Peace. :m: :bugeye:

 

[socialistprophet]

Re: to Dr. Lou Natic re: bible vs evolution

Originally posted by alice
i find it interesting that the bible says..man is dust and formed from clay

and current science theory says cosmic dust which falls in TONS on the earth have all 21 amino acids..and perhaps interacted w/the crystallography of minerals..such as clay.

perfect templates..crystals, mirror sides for rna and dna..

so..i say yes ancient religions do have a huge amount of imagination and personal opinion, but there are words in them that are profound in their wisdom. And, in this case, somehow 'wanting' and seeking truth seems perhaps to have given a glimpse of it.

.............

einstein said life is an illusion, albiet a stubborn one. if you see us from another perspective..we are just a causal process flowing through our reality we barely know cuz our senses are so limited.

Are these insights from ancient religions or just random coincidences? Did the writers of the Bible know about cosmic dust or what? Well, Im saying no. The creation story was not written by Moses or any other of Yahweh's prophets. The first story (that is the first order creation was said to have happened Gen. 1- a little bit into 2) was written by the people of Israel. It is called the "oral tradition" and it is the written remminents of hundreds of years of story-telling by the then Hebrew people. One proof of this is that in the original earliests texts we have (mind you there exist not one original cannonized text) in the oral tradition it only calls God by "Yahweh." Now in the next version "the preistly tradition" it calls God by only Elohim. Thats a pretty basic and important stylistic difference. Anyway, this version (where we actually find it said that Adam was formed from dust) wasnt written by Moses either. It was most likely written by priests and rabbis of the faith, not prophets.

And the whole statement you made about our never knowing and limited senses and stuff... that's nothing more than an easy way out. We will know one day... or our descendents will. Never underestimate the potential of the human race.

Peace. :m: :bugeye:

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Why is it shallow to believe in God until proven otherwise? If my (and countless others') experience has shown belief in God to be consistent with reality?

I didn't say it was shallow to believe in God. I said it was not shallow to be an atheist.

If reality consists out of something you have not yet perceived/conceived, does it become less possible?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I don't feel out of touch with reality for not believing in unicorns based on the fact that there is no evidence to show they exist. The same applies to God.

You will agree that the concept of a unicorn does in fact exist, and that only because it doesn't fit the picture you have in your head, doesn't mean the antelope which inspired it doesn't exist either.

Humanity tends to anthropomorphize. I believe that antelopes and old bearded wise men exist, but that doesn't mean that concepts inspired by those objects exist in reality.

In Christianity we have something that is easily overlooked: hope. These three remain: Faith, hope, and love.

I think Paul put it best in Romans 8:
24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Atheists can have hope too. Hope is expectations or desires. I just don't hope for an afterlife that I don't believe exists. Instead my hopes are centred in this life.

 

[Idle Mind]

Just as a small point:

27,400,000,000/365,000 = 75068.49315.
Not 7506.

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Re: Re: to person wondering on atheist..

Originally posted by one_raven
Actually, it is QUITE the opposite.

Most Atheists and Agnostics fully accept and state that we do not know everything.
Many of them contend that we do not know ANYTHING.
The reason we don't know is because it is exceedingly difficult to "prove" anything.
We have evidence that we can interpret and come to a logically sound best scenario theory.
Which is exactly WHY they are Atheists.
Since no one has come anywhere NEAR close to providing convincing evidence that God exists (or is required to exist for US to exists, which is the stance of many Theists).

Theists, on the other hand, think they have all the answers.
God is the answer to all questions.
God did it.
God made us in his image.
God created everything.
God made up the laws of physics that we can merely observe, and he can bend and break them when and if he wishes.

Even thought there is ZERO direct evidence of the existence of God, Theists KNOW that he exists.
That, my "open-minded" friend, is arrogant and shallow.

Where's the applause icon? Very well put!

 

[TheVisitor]

Idle mind, ....

Good eye, good eye....It was late, and it seems I did miss a "0",
I'm glad you brought that to my attention before I published my "findings" !!!
Happens to the best of us...heh

But the theory is still valid, that Heaven and the other dimensions are existing at vastly different "speeds", and are out of phase.

Actually, it's like this... the dimensions stack as follows:


God............

Heaven......

earth..........

hell.............

satan.........


Each with a void or barrier separating them.......
Einstein said the barrier was light. Which is measure by distance and speed........

God is the only one who can ceate "something" from nothing...when doing so it may be needed to create a balance. Satan is equal to God in every single way including power, except the ability to make something from nothing, He can take something already created and change it into something else. Heaven is the opposite of hell, and earth is the balance point in the middle, the "fulcrum"

There are planets, stars, galaxies, universes....in this dimension and all the others too....stacked sort of but seperated by speed of "existance. (Space to one and Time to the other) Einstein was on to something. This is a signature vibration or frequency, caused by the speed at which they are "existing".

Just like us, we don't all travel in a straight line, we go to the store, back home to the fridge, to the computer...back to the fridge, then to the computer...see ......

So in the other dimension(s) they are not traveling "away"from us in a straight line....
They are right here moving back and forth so fast the're movements vibrate at a frequency out of phase with us......
and their molecules can move right through us.....and we are doing the same to the ones below us.

You are a tri-une being you have:
A body...... here, on earth.
A spirit.......in heaven, a little higher
And a soul..that's a piece of God himself, where God is, higher yet.

Thats why God appeared to create man twice.

First... from where He is an attribute of Himself a gene, needed expressed..so He formed Man in His own image. God is a spirit.
The first man was created a living spirit, but still no man yet to till the soil.
Then he created the representation here, the physical body out of the elements in the soil..dust, and created the body of flesh.
The man to till the soil.

As long as Adam was in "harmony" with heaven and God...he was immortal...as soon as he sinned, the connection was severed to his "theopany" or other body and this one here fell into time to die...a day with god is a thousand years...That day you "eat" thereof, that day you will die...He was told. And it happened.

Jesus has come to restore mankind back across the chasim, He was created by the spokenword, the same as Adam...but He died, without falling.....and Eve was never yet taken from His side, as it was in Adam..so, we were in Him then......it's all true.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by socialistprophet
However, wouldnt this suggest that the universe itself was of some intelligence? And if so, couldnt the universe itself be our higher power?

I don't know that self-causation would necessitate intelligence. There's a conundrum there because how can something have a self (much less intelligence or will) before it causes itself to exist? We're really just talking about something coming from nothing again.

But I do come across a different issue: If we are intelligent and we are a part of the Universe does that mean that the Universe as a whole is necessarily intelligent? How can part of the whole be intelligent but not the whole? Or is intelligence a localized phenomenon?

See, these particles do come from somewhere: the vacuum.

But there's nothing in a vacuum.

~Raithere

 

[socialistprophet]

TheVisitor::: "God is the only one who can ceate "something" from nothing...when doing so it may be needed to create a balance."

by saying this, do you mean to imply that god is either (a) not all-powerful or (b) not all knowing. If you choose (a), then God knows how to create this system or whatever system without this balance while it would still work, but it's beyond his ability. Or (b), that God could create this system if he only knew how... but he doesnt.

If you think God is both things, you'll have to revise the quoted statement. If god were all knowing and all powerful, then the balance would not be needed: Satan v. God, Heaven v. Hell. Provided, that is, that god isnt in some way sadhistic and enjoys the suffering that humans must undergo as a result of this balance.

Raithere::: But there's nothing in a vacuum.

I ask this only to be educated: i was under the impression that if there were absolutely nothing inside of something, than it would implode. Does this not apply to the vacuum? Or is the vacuum actually the "vessel" in which this nothingness is contained. (I think i told ya I dont know a lot of physics... haha)

Peace. :m: :bugeye:

 

[TheVisitor]

But there's nothing in a vacuum.

{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}
In the beginning God dwelled alone with His attributes. That's His thoughts. There was nothing, just God alone. But He had thoughts. Just like a great architect can set down in his mind, and draw out what he thinks he's going to create. He gets in his mind what he's going to do, and that's his thoughts; that's his desires.
Now, it's a thought, and then he speaks it, and it's a word then. And a thought when it's expressed, it's a word. But it has to be a thought first. So it's God's attributes; then it becomes a thought, then a word.
His first being was Spirit, God, supernatural (All right?), the great Eternal. Second, He begin to form Himself towards flesh in a theophany, it's called, "the word, a body."
The next creation was the man.....

Oh, I can just see Adam and Eve going down through the garden and the winds blowing, Eve, the little bride, saying, "Oh, Adam, the--the wind is so strong."
He'd say, "Peace." See, man was actually made to be a god. Do you know that? The Bible said so...
Jesus said, "If they called them who the Word of God came to (which was the prophets), if they were gods, then how can you condemn Me when I say I am the Son of God?"
The prophets were considered gods. Man was give--made a lesser god, and given a domain on the earth.

In the beginning God created you to be master of every circumstance. That's the origin; that's authentic; that's God's Word. There was nothing, nothing could happen, unless you was the master of it. That's what you were created for.

That's the reason that the world today is groaning, waiting for the full manifestations of the sons of God.
Someday man will still come back into his right place and his domain will be the earth. And he will speak to the tree or to the mountain or to anything, and it'll just go in place, just like it was intended to be. We are fallen creatures.

 

[socialistprophet]

I meant exactly what I said, since you found no falt with what I said, why imply something I didn't.

Im not implying anything. Im saying that God CANNOT be all powerful and all knowing if what you said ("so it may be needed to create a balance ") is true. Unless God enjoys the pain we feel because of the "evil or bad" end of the balance.

My logic provided God does not:

1) The evil part exist.

2) We as humans feel pain, suffering because of it... many times through no fault of our own i.e. being hit by a drunk driver or catching AIDS through a blood transfusion.

If God were all powerful, and all knowing he would

a) know how to create the world/universe without the suffering... meaning no bad part.

b) and he would be able to do it.

So you see the problem here. If he is all powerful and all knowing, he's just a saddhist who enjoys our pain.

 

[TheVisitor]

So you see the problem here. If he is all powerful and all knowing, he's just a saddhist who enjoys our pain.

-------------


I see no problem here, except your painfull attempt at creating a contradiction where one doesn't exist.

 

[Zero Mass]

Holy Crap TheVisitor,
You are kidding around with all that stuff, right?
I have to strap myself down from not attacking your sanity, man

Please do not post anything like the above again without providing some personal interpretation b/c it really contributes little to the discussion except for laughs.

And besides, the average atheist is going to come at you with the "how do you prove that?" question, so you might as well go ahead and answer it.

ZERO MASS

 

[TheVisitor]

Like I said, positive and negitive, good and evil, pain and pleasure, up and down, left and right, ect...

They are separated above us and below us but they still exist in a balance, around us. God created it this way....It was His choise.

But He has no limits whatsoever.

God did this of His own good pleasure. He is Soverign - It's His creation, you are a creature in it, He is the creator.....

The cry of "injustice" is a old as the world itself, it was Satan's song, long before you.

I have a scripture for you.....Romans 9:13-23

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

 

[socialistprophet]

They are separated above us and below us but they still exist in a balance, around us. God created it this way....It was His choise.

ok, that's all i wanted to hear. It was God's choice to have this balance. It was God's choice for us to suffer, feel pain... even if needlessly. Im not trashing your beliefs. Im just trying to get the straight.

Peace. :m: :bugeye: