how peaceful is islam ?

[GeoffP]

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/ne....php?storyid=80

You have link from Iran's government about the trial. How do we know if it was a sham trial or not. How do we know she did not kill them for other reasons? Are we to believe only the words of the author of this article who is Anti-Irani himself. Where is the proof for your claim.

For some, no proof is ever enough.

So, to use your own logic: how do we know the truth of your words, you who are so anti-West, anti-everything except islam, so pro-islam? Where is the proof of your claims?

What I was saying is most importantly it is better to avoid obviously biased sources for example

And when I provide links from leftist, Russian and other sources, that still isn't good enough for you.

However there are beliefs which the majority of Muslims hold. I am an advocator of Islamic laws and teachings, and Muslims believe in these laws. Otherwise they would not be Muslim.

Islam does not have flaws, Islam is perfect.

If I did not believe this, then I would not be Muslim.

And thus, no matter the evidence, you could not be moved from your position? Funnily enough, you accused me of that earlier. How blind the hypocrite eye.

I think that answers most of my questions about islam, then. Not, regrettably, in a good way.

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

No, not at all. Women are respected in Pakistani people. The Pakistani men have a great debt to the women in our country. They are our mothers, sisters, wives, cousins, aunts, grandmothers. How can we disrespect them?

Indeed; this is also my question.

Geoff

 

[vincent]

Not true. Those who murder the victims are subject to punishment under Pakistani law. Honor killings isnt as common as you make it seem. It occurs in isolated tribal areas. When it happens with government knowledge, the government prosecutes them for this crime.



What are you talking about? In Pakistani society, women hold many jobs in parliament and are often involved in the events of the country. Women do not take as much as an active rule as in Western society, but this is no reason to denounce the country. I agree that there are women rights abuses by some Pakistanis, but that goes for Westerners as well. These cases do not describe the overall situation in my country at all. I love my country. Pakistan is a great country which respects the rights of its minorities and its women.



No, not at all. Women are respected in Pakistani people. The Pakistani men have a great debt to the women in our country. They are our mothers, sisters, wives, cousins, aunts, grandmothers. How can we disrespect them?

One of the greatest heroes of Pakistan is Fatima Ali Jinnah, the sister of beloved Qaud e Azm Muhamad Ali Jinnah. Allah swt give them peace.



My defence is I am Pakistani, have lived in Pakistan, and know situation in Pakistan thoroughly.

Vincent, you have made it clear before that you don't like Pakistanis so it should be obvious for the readers that you will try to do anything to defame Pakistan.

Pakistan is not perfect, we have our problems (not every Pakistani is a good person, but that goes for all countries), but it is my country and I love it.

Pakistan Zindabad

Peace.

Its amnesty international who say

"However, systematic failure by the state to prevent and to investigate them and to punish perpetrators leads to international responsibility of the state. The Government of Pakistan has taken no measures to end honour killings and to hold perpetrators to account. It has failed to train police and judges to be gender neutral and to amend discriminatory laws. "


amnesty international is not me, it has no axe to grind with muslims they are not racists, they stand up for abused people all over the world, there are millions of abused pakistan women, amnesty international has stated that.

It has also said the pakistan government & police, are not investigating killings & abuses against pakistan women.


Tell me about honour, the favourite word of paki's?

is it honour to kill your child or sister because she dares to be a adulterer or chooses to marry outside a arranged marriage or outside her faith, what is honourable about that.

Is it honourable to abuse a women?

Honour in the uk has a different meaning, it means we show respect to other humans regardless of there gender.

A woman has 100% of the rights of a man, they are not second class citizens, they have the right to sleep around, marry who the fuck they want, & to dress in mini skirts & sell sex if they want.

They are not pawns of paki parents, and siblings who manipulate them like puppets into marriage & dictate there entire existence.

You paki's do have some serious fucked up idea's about honour, put you deserve our pity, it is seriously pitiful that millions can have such fucked up ideas on how to treat a woman.....

 

[leopold]

Pakistan is not perfect, we have our problems (not every Pakistani is a good person, but that goes for all countries), but it is my country and I love it.

Pakistan Zindabad

Peace.

a patriot are you?
i happen to love my country too.
do you beleive that patriotism can get in the way of objectivity?
the same can also be said of extremly religious people

about amnesty international, are you saying that they are biased?
what they say fits well with what i saw on television
there are women that live in fear of their lives because they leave their husbands.
it was also stated that the government turns a blind eye towards that kind of stuff.

 

[DiamondHearts]

a patriot are you?

I love the ideals for which my country was founded. I disagree completely with the modern political stances of the President. I believe my country is headed int he wrong direction. I love my country and my people as a whole, however I recognize not all of them are good people.

i happen to love my country too.

Good. What country is that?

do you beleive that patriotism can get in the way of objectivity?

I am a believer in the ideals my country was founded on, however I disagree with my government on many matters.

the same can also be said of extremly religious people

I agree. However, if I believe in my religion as the complete truth, I will naturally be inclined to it.

about amnesty international, are you saying that they are biased?

They are wrong for saying the government and people of Pakistan do not do anything about women abuse. We have arrested and executed many murderers and criminals. I suggest you take a look at some Urdu English newspapers from Pakistan and look at the daily news of arrests and such. There are certain events which happen in our country without the knowledge of the people in isolated areas where our government has little infastracture. These events get by, however when there is proof of abuse and mistreatment, our government has always acted responsibly. One thing I can say good about Pakistan under the new President is that he has really cracked down on crime in the country.

what they say fits well with what i saw on television

What television station?

there are women that live in fear of their lives because they leave their husbands.

A divorce is recognized as the infalliable right of a wife and this right is guaranteed directly at the time of marriage. The government upholds this law very well. Some families might be abusive and prevent their daughters from such a thing, but it is not common at all. If they inform the government of their situation, the government will secure their safety.

it was also stated that the government turns a blind eye towards that kind of stuff.

That's not true and only an accusation. If you lived in Pakistan, like I have, you will realize that this point is baseless. Family abuse is greatly frowned upon in our society.

Peace.

 

[leopold]

i'm an american diamondhearts

the video i seen was on mosaic or link, i can't remember
as to when it was filmed i have no idea
but it was about 5 years ago when i seen it

 

[(Q)]

I love my country and my people as a whole, however I recognize not all of them are good people.

Were those people that you don't consider good created by Allah? Why would Allah create them?

I am a believer in the ideals my country was founded on, however I disagree with my government on many matters.

Do you have the freedom to voice your disagreements? Are not the decisions of your government based on Islam?

I agree. However, if I believe in my religion as the complete truth, I will naturally be inclined to it.

Unless of course, your government does something to you that you don't agree with.

One thing I can say good about Pakistan under the new President is that he has really cracked down on crime in the country.

Why do you have crime? Are you not all Muslims?

Some families might be abusive and prevent their daughters from such a thing, but it is not common at all. If they inform the government of their situation, the government will secure their safety.

"In other countries if a woman is raped she can get justice, she can go to a police station," says Bhutto. "She doesn't need a political dictator to come to her aid, she doesn't need the international community to come to her aid. She goes to the police station and she files a case and the rapist is arrested. This doesn't happen in Pakistan."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pakistan/mckenna_pakistan.html

That's not true and only an accusation. If you lived in Pakistan, like I have, you will realize that this point is baseless. Family abuse is greatly frowned upon in our society.

"A new report on attitudes to child sex abuse in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province paints a horrifying picture of widespread abuse.

The report shows that many of the population believe that the sexual abuse of young boys is a matter of pride.

For the victims it is a terrifying ordeal. A boy told us how he had been raped when he was just 7 years old. He said the men in his village were like dogs - 'they would eat you like a dog' he said. 'It was not safe for any young fair-skinned boy to go out alone. It was a tradition to molest boys'.

According to the report many people in Frontier Province are also well aware that men in the area keep boys specifically for sex."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/248219.stm

 

[vincent]

Were those people that you don't consider good created by Allah? Why would Allah create them?



Do you have the freedom to voice your disagreements? Are not the decisions of your government based on Islam?



Unless of course, your government does something to you that you don't agree with.



Why do you have crime? Are you not all Muslims?



"In other countries if a woman is raped she can get justice, she can go to a police station," says Bhutto. "She doesn't need a political dictator to come to her aid, she doesn't need the international community to come to her aid. She goes to the police station and she files a case and the rapist is arrested. This doesn't happen in Pakistan."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pakistan/mckenna_pakistan.html




"A new report on attitudes to child sex abuse in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province paints a horrifying picture of widespread abuse.

The report shows that many of the population believe that the sexual abuse of young boys is a matter of pride.

For the victims it is a terrifying ordeal. A boy told us how he had been raped when he was just 7 years old. He said the men in his village were like dogs - 'they would eat you like a dog' he said. 'It was not safe for any young fair-skinned boy to go out alone. It was a tradition to molest boys'.

According to the report many people in Frontier Province are also well aware that men in the area keep boys specifically for sex."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/248219.stm

"By Richard Galpin in Pakistan

A new report on attitudes to child sex abuse in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province paints a horrifying picture of widespread abuse.

The report shows that many of the population believe that the sexual abuse of young boys is a matter of pride.

Richard Galpin reports on the horrifying tales of sexual abuse and what is being doneThe United Nations is shortly to publish the first nation-wide survey on child sex-abuse in Pakistan - an acutely sensitive subject in this deeply conservative Islamic country. "

***********
Above From your link Q,

That is very disturbing, especially when muslims are always against homosexuals & despise them, yet here we have pakis running around molesting young boys.

"sexual abuse of young boys is a matter of pride"


That is just so sick its beyond belief, maybe muslims hate gays so much because as a child they are molested all the time by muslim men, thus making them hate gays, but at the same time, it is well known victims of molestation, will go on to be a molestor themselves, continuing the vicious cycle.


So now we have the United Nations, and amnesty international portraying pakistan as a country which abuses women, & molests children as a matter of pride!!!!!!!!!

So diamond heart, i take it the united nations & amnesty international are a bunch of liars, & the only honest people in the world are paki's LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DiamondHearts]

i'm an american diamondhearts

the video i seen was on mosaic or link, i can't remember
as to when it was filmed i have no idea
but it was about 5 years ago when i seen it

Sometimes I also watch the Mosaic TV, its a good channel to see different opinions of different country's people.

Leo, do you think it is unpatriotic to disagree with the policies of your government?

I don't believe this, but many Americans believe if you don't agree with their country's policies in the Middle East, you are unpatriotic.

Were those people that you don't consider good created by Allah? Why would Allah create them?

(Q), you have a hard time grasping this belief of Muslim that Allah swt created all humanity and controls every aspect of their lives, however He allows humans to make choices in their lives. He does this to test us to see which one of His servants is worthy of a good or bad afterlife.

Read: http://www.islam-online.net/english/in_depth/islamintro/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml

Do you have the freedom to voice your disagreements? Are not the decisions of your government based on Islam?

In Pakistan, the government allows certain disagreements of its laws, except they punish those who pose a threat to the revolt especially Islamic activists.

The decisions of the current government are NOT based on Islam. The Pakistani government is now controlled by the General Musharaff who is also President and the military has a great influence over Pakistan. The current rule is much more honest and rigid in certain ways, because many of our previous civilian governments were farces used to steal money from the people. The people of Pakistan support the implementation of Islam in the government, and the government occassionally makes Islamic laws to please the masses and increase its credibility with the people. Examples of unIslamic laws in modern Pakistan are: support of Afghani war, war in Waziristan and Balochistan, closing of Pak-Afghan border preventing livelihood of many people in the region, allowing Americans to operate freely in Pakistan, allowing Usury and interest to pay for government projects, accepting usury-based aid for earthquake victims, not supporting Palestinian government with aid due to American pressure, not showing pressure on India for massacres of Muslim minorities and Kashmiris, and accepting every demand made to them from the American government, as well as borderlining Shariah and Islamic groups in Pakistan.

Unless of course, your government does something to you that you don't agree with.

The government of Pakistan was founded on Islamic ideals, however the modern government is far from Islam.

Why do you have crime? Are you not all Muslims?

This is Allah swt's will to allow people to create mischeif in the earth, to test people to see who will stand up for justice. Those who stand for justice will be the blessed of Allah swt.

"In other countries if a woman is raped she can get justice, she can go to a police station," says Bhutto. "She doesn't need a political dictator to come to her aid, she doesn't need the international community to come to her aid. She goes to the police station and she files a case and the rapist is arrested. This doesn't happen in Pakistan."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pakistan/mckenna_pakistan.html

Benazir Bhutto was expelled from the nation of Pakistan as the Prime Minister when it was discovered with hard and infallible evidence that she had stolen and relocated millions of dollars from the Islamic charity and poor people's funds in the governmentto herself and her family. She was the worst and most corrupt of the civilian rulers of Pakistan, and is thoroughly hated by all Pakistanis.

She has since tried to sow mistrust of Pakistan and constantly tries to demean many Islamic struggles in the Islamic world. She has been paid millions by interest groups in the west who wish to criticize and create friction with Muslims to continue to do this. She does not represent anyone in Pakistan.

"A new report on attitudes to child sex abuse in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province paints a horrifying picture of widespread abuse.

The report shows that many of the population believe that the sexual abuse of young boys is a matter of pride.

For the victims it is a terrifying ordeal. A boy told us how he had been raped when he was just 7 years old. He said the men in his village were like dogs - 'they would eat you like a dog' he said. 'It was not safe for any young fair-skinned boy to go out alone. It was a tradition to molest boys'.

According to the report many people in Frontier Province are also well aware that men in the area keep boys specifically for sex."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/248219.stm

[/QUOTE]

Having been to the NWFP, I will contest your accusation. Child abuse and female abuse is not common in our country. We have a few criminals and murderers in our nation (like all nations) hwoever it is wrong to generalize the entire populace of Pakistan for such actions of a few people.

Keep in mind that Pakistan is the fifth most populous nation in the world with a population of about 160 million people. Not everyone in Pakistan is a wife beater or child abuser as some posters in this forum like to declare.

The facts prove that Pakistan has proportionately less cases of rape, family murder, and other such crimes than many nations in the West.

If I did the same as you and generalized people, I could also make a case that the nation of America it is common to kill wives who do affairs, that men kill their own child, women drown their children, bombing of abortion clinics, suicide due to insecurity of people.

I however am someone who thinks with reason and common sense. American people are not murderers, rapists, lynchers, or such. Because a minority of a people of a nation do such a thing, it does not define the nation. The majority defines the nation.

Pakistan is a kind and honorable nation, and our people shun injustice and love justice. We are devoted to our religion, and we support peace, especially in our part of the world in Afghanistan and Middle East.

I encourage all of you to visit Pakistan, I know will gain respect for our culture.

Peace.

 

[GeoffP]

about amnesty international, are you saying that they are biased?
what they say fits well with what i saw on television

I feel that I should tell you, your television is a slut. It should be burned, along with any nearby embassies.

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

They are wrong for saying the government and people of Pakistan do not do anything about women abuse. We have arrested and executed many murderers and criminals.

Or those you say are. Given your predilections, I wonder about the nature of their guilt.

I suggest you take a look at some Urdu English newspapers from Pakistan and look at the daily news of arrests and such. There are certain events which happen in our country without the knowledge of the people in isolated areas where our government has little infastracture.

Oh. Like

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/pakistan/

"...more than 70 percent of women in police custody experience physical or sexual abuse at the hands of their jailers. . Reported abuses include beating and slapping; suspension in mid-air by hands tied behind the victim's back; the insertion of foreign objects, including police batons and chili peppers, into the vagina and rectum; and gang rape. Yet despite these alarming reports, to our knowledge not a single officer has suffered criminal penalties for such abuse, even in cases in which incontrovertible evidence of custodial rape exists. (2) One senior police official told a delegation of local human rights activists that "in 95 percent of the cases the women themselves are at fault"."

"This attitude is reflected in the way police handle cases of rape brought by a woman. We found that police routinely refuse to register such complaints, particularly if the complaint is lodged against a fellow officer."

"We found that between 50 and 80 percent of all female detainees in Pakistan were imprisoned under the Hudood Ordinances, Islamic penal laws introduced in 1979, which in law and in practice discriminate against them."

"Under the Hudood laws, proof of rape for the maximum (Hadd) punishments of stoning to death or 100 lashes in a public place requires the testimony of four male Muslim witnesses to the act of penetration. The testimony of women -- not only the victim but any woman -- carries no legal weight. This requirement means that women who have been sentenced to the maximum punishments, deemed cruel and inhuman under international law, have been so sentenced under a law that prevents them from testifying on their own behalf."

"We found that the majority of rape and adultery or fornication cases attract the lesser (Tazir) punishments which entail public flogging, rigorous imprisonment and fines. While the testimony of women is admissible at this level, we found that Pakistani courts still exhibited a bias against women. The courts tend to see women as complicit in sexual offenses, despite a lack of evidence, or evidence to the contrary, and required from female rape victims extraordinarily conclusive proof that the alleged intercourse was forced."

I recommend you read the rest of the article. Slavery, misogyny, oppression: a cavalcade of horror piled on horror.

So tell me, Diamond: has the Shariat Act been rescinded? Is Hudood "hud-out"?

In that islamic paradise, I'm going to bet: no.

And it seems my view is supported.

**********************************************************************************

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/15/pakist11129.htm

Pakistan's moderates are beaten in public
By Ali Dayan Hasan, Pakistan researcher for Human Rights Watch
Published in The International Herald Tribune
Wednesday, June 15, 2005

(Lahore, Pakistan)--"Teach the bitch a lesson. Strip her in public." As one of the police officers told me, these were the orders issued by their bosses. The police beat the woman with batons in the full glare of the news media, tore her shirt off and, though they failed to take off her baggy trousers, certainly tried their best. The ritual public humiliation over, she and others - some bloodied - were dragged screaming and protesting to police vans and taken away to police stations.

This didn't happen to some unknown student or impoverished villager. This happened to Asma Jahangir, the United Nations special rapporteur on freedom of religion and head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, the country's largest such nongovernmental group. The setting: a glitzy thoroughfare in Lahore's upmarket Gulberg neighborhood. The crime: attempting to organize a symbolic mixed-gender mini-marathon on May 14.

...

The public beating of Pakistan's most high-profile human rights defenders highlights what most Pakistanis have known all along: "Enlightened moderation" is a hoax perpetrated by Musharraf for international consumption. What is known in Pakistan as the "mullah-military alliance" remains deeply rooted, and the Pakistani military and Musharraf continue to view "moderate" and "liberal" forces in politics and society as their principal adversaries.

Regarding your new president: http://hrw.org/press/2002/10/pakistan-bck1009.htm

**********************************************************************************

That's not true and only an accusation. If you lived in Pakistan, like I have, you will realize that this point is baseless. Family abuse is greatly frowned upon in our society.

Course it is. Sure, now.

Geoff

 

[leopold]

Leo, do you think it is unpatriotic to disagree with the policies of your government?
I don't believe this, but many Americans believe if you don't agree with their country's policies in the Middle East, you are unpatriotic.

no it isn't unpatriotic to disagree with ones government

 

[GeoffP]

(Q), you have a hard time grasping this belief of Muslim that Allah swt created all humanity and controls every aspect of their lives, however He allows humans to make choices in their lives. He does this to test us to see which one of His servants is worthy of a good or bad afterlife.

The government of Pakistan was founded on Islamic ideals, however the modern government is far from Islam.

Better the devil you know.

Benazir Bhutto was expelled from the nation of Pakistan as the Prime Minister when it was discovered with hard and infallible evidence that she had stolen and relocated millions of dollars from the Islamic charity and poor people's funds in the governmentto herself and her family. She was the worst and most corrupt of the civilian rulers of Pakistan, and is thoroughly hated by all Pakistanis.[/quote]

And yet, this is what I find from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto

"Over the past 10 years the couple have faced about 90 cases combined, none of which have been proven."

The facts prove that Pakistan has proportionately less cases of rape, family murder, and other such crimes than many nations in the West.

And yet, it's kind of dangerous to report rape in Pakistan, isn't it?

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/July2004/Pakistan
http://www.marxist.com/women/pakistan_rape_cases.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008177.php
http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/07/02/31654.html
http://ko.offroadpakistan.com/pakistan/2004_10/mukhtaran_bibi_sentenced_to_be_raped.html
http://www.wworld.org/crisis/crisis.asp?ID=494
http://www.feminist.com/news/vaw22.html
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1835/context/archive
http://hrw.org/campaigns/pakistan/forms.htm
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/Parliament/3251/spring99/pakistan.html
http://acr.hrschool.org/mainfile.php/0185/330/

I think those links explain the reasoning. One article I found, laughably, suggested that women were safer in islam, because the rate of rape was lower, without ever seeming to understand that women who report rape under the hudood are in at least as much danger as their attackers.

Geoff

 

[leopold]

this is why religion does not belong in the government

 

[(Q)]

(Q), you have a hard time grasping this belief of Muslim that Allah swt created all humanity and controls every aspect of their lives, however He allows humans to make choices in their lives. He does this to test us to see which one of His servants is worthy of a good or bad afterlife.

Perhaps, but you have a much more difficult time grasping the illogic of your statements. So, I'll spell it out for you one last time, but I doubt you'll get it. A person has no choices to make if a god controls every aspect of that persons life. It is impossible for both to exist.

From the link provided:

"And everything in the universe, the seen and the unseen, is completely subject to the overriding power of Allah. Nothing can happen outside His Will.

We cannot know our future and, to a large extent, we cannot control it.

From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!

Yet the ultimate reality is that Allah could make the wall disappear just before one’s fist reaches it."

As you can see from the article you linked Diamonhearts, there is no free will in Islam, Allah overrides everything.

The example of the brick wall does not follow the same concept as free will. It is an incorrect analogy. Allah makes the person punch the wall and then decides to leave the wall there or take it away. He is in total control.

Of course, brick walls have never suddenly disappeared in reality.

In Pakistan, the government allows certain disagreements of its laws, except they punish those who pose a threat to the revolt especially Islamic activists.

That has nothing to do with the poor girl who was raped.

The decisions of the current government are NOT based on Islam. The Pakistani government is now controlled by the General Musharaff who is also President and the military has a great influence over Pakistan. The current rule is much more honest and rigid in certain ways, because many of our previous civilian governments were farces used to steal money from the people. The people of Pakistan support the implementation of Islam in the government, and the government occassionally makes Islamic laws to please the masses and increase its credibility with the people.

You're a plethora of contradiction, Diamondhearts. The entire system is based on Sharia law, numbnuts. Pakistan is 97% Muslim.

The government of Pakistan was founded on Islamic ideals, however the modern government is far from Islam.

Are you saying those Muslims are corrupt?

This is Allah swt's will to allow people to create mischeif in the earth, to test people to see who will stand up for justice. Those who stand for justice will be the blessed of Allah swt.

If Allah created ALL things and controls ALL people, then he created and is controlling the mischief-makers. He already knows who will stand up for justice because he controls them.

Benazir Bhutto was expelled from the nation of Pakistan as the Prime Minister when it was discovered with hard and infallible evidence that she had stolen and relocated millions of dollars from the Islamic charity and poor people's funds in the governmentto herself and her family. She was the worst and most corrupt of the civilian rulers of Pakistan, and is thoroughly hated by all Pakistanis.

Allah controls Bhutto, therefore Allah is to blame.

She has since tried to sow mistrust of Pakistan and constantly tries to demean many Islamic struggles in the Islamic world. She has been paid millions by interest groups in the west who wish to criticize and create friction with Muslims to continue to do this. She does not represent anyone in Pakistan.

So, it appears that Allah's control over Bhutto is that of corruption. You should take your anger out on Allah.

Having been to the NWFP, I will contest your accusation. Child abuse and female abuse is not common in our country. We have a few criminals and murderers in our nation (like all nations) hwoever it is wrong to generalize the entire populace of Pakistan for such actions of a few people.

It is interesting how you first will deny everything, even when the facts are presented to you. I find it rather amazing you would actually admit to having criminals and murderers in your country. They are Muslims controlled by Allah, don't ya know?

Of course, you still deny that abuse runs rampant through Pakistan. That's alright, at least we are making some headway with you.

Keep in mind that Pakistan is the fifth most populous nation in the world with a population of about 160 million people. Not everyone in Pakistan is a wife beater or child abuser as some posters in this forum like to declare.

It is not the forum posters who make those declarations, those are the facts.

The facts prove that Pakistan has proportionately less cases of rape, family murder, and other such crimes than many nations in the West.

No, it is not proportionally less. It is in fact, far more.

I however am someone who thinks with reason and common sense.

When will begin to show reason and common sense, so far all you've shown is blind faith.

Pakistan is a kind and honorable nation, and our people shun injustice and love justice. We are devoted to our religion, and we support peace, especially in our part of the world in Afghanistan and Middle East.

I encourage all of you to visit Pakistan, I know will gain respect for our culture.

That could be problem, since travel warnings have been issued to your so-called "kind and honorable nation:"

"Due to on-going concerns about the possibility of terrorist activity directed against American citizens and interests, the Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens to defer non-essential travel to Pakistan. The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad and the Consulates in Karachi, Lahore, and Peshawar continue to operate at reduced staffing levels. Family members of official Americans assigned to the Embassy in Islamabad and to the three consulates in Pakistan were ordered to leave the country in March 2002 and have not been allowed to return."

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_930.html

 

[vincent]

I encourage all of you to visit Pakistan, I know will gain respect for our culture.

Peace.

Ive booked my ticket, for me & the wife, what do we need to pack?

A burqa, a veil, ive told the missus that she needs to keep the veil up at all times, even while she is eating, because of the many times acid has been thrown into womens faces not wearing the veil in pakistan, we have designed a straw hole in the veil so she can take liquids.

What about booze, am i aloud to sing & drink whiskey & shout abuse at the locals, as most british tourists do, or is this unacceptable behaviour in pakistan.

A emergency burqa repair kit?

We also plan to vist a madrasse, we are not a expert on them, what do we need Diamond hearts?

Knee pads for all that kneeling no doubt, what about bird corn, so as we bob up and down in praying bobbing motion you all do, we can eat too, kill 2 birds with one stone kinda?

So diamond we will be arriving next week, will you meet me at the airport, we will have quite alot of luggage, we have 3 suitcases of diarrhea tablets, and 2 cases of bird corn.

See you soon........

 

[DiamondHearts]

You're a plethora of contradiction, Diamondhearts. The entire system is based on Sharia law, numbnuts. Pakistan is 97% Muslim.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I guess America is also a Christian law country since majority of its population are Christians.

Pakistan's modern government is NOT based on Islam. You should look at this website.

The President of Pakistan is the Head of State and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, and is elected for a five-year term by the Electoral College of Pakistan - comprised of the Senate, the National Assembly, and the four Provincial Assemblies. The President’s appointment and term are constitutionally independent of the Prime Minister’s term.

The Prime Minister of Pakistan is usually the leader of the largest party in the National Assembly and is assisted by a cabinet of ministers drawn from both chambers of the federal legislature.

The bicameral federal legislature comprises the 100 member Senate (with seats equally distributed among the provinces and the FATA and the capital) and the 342 member National Assembly. Both the Senate and the National Assembly have seats reserved for women and religious minorities. Senators are elected for six-year terms, with staggered elections every three years, whilst members of the National Assembly are elected for five-year terms. The Constitution provides for the President to address the federal legislature together at the start of the first session after any general elections.

The last National Assembly elections were held in October 2002, and Senate elections in February 2003. One notable outcome was the election of 91 women to Parliament - the largest number and percentage of women in the parliament of any Muslim-majority country.[1]

Each province has a similar government setup with a Provincial Assembly elected for a five-year term through multi-party elections, which in turn elects a Chief Minister - the executive head of the province. The Chief Minister nominates a candidate for the office of Provincial Governor and the Provincial Assembly ratifies the nominee for a five-year term.


Form of Government

Officially a federal republic, Pakistan has had a long history of alternating periods of electoral democracy and authoritarian military government. Military presidents include General Ayub Khan in the 1960s, General Zia ul Haq in the 1980s, and General Pervez Musharraf from 1999. However, a majority of Pakistan's Heads of State and Heads of Government have been elected civilian leaders. General elections were held in October 2002. After monitoring the elections, the Commonwealth Observer Group stated in conclusion:

We believe that on election day this was a credible election: the will of the people was expressed and the results reflected their wishes. However, in the context of various measures taken by the government we are not persuaded of the overall fairness of the process as a whole [1]

On May 22, 2004, the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group re-admitted Pakistan into the Commonwealth, formally acknowledging its progress in returning to democracy.

wikipedia

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html

Government type:
Definition Field Listing
federal republic

Legal system:
Definition Field Listing
based on English common law with provisions to accommodate Pakistan's status as an Islamic state; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations

Charges of corruption and abuse of power

She was charged and later cleared in a number of corruption cases in Pakistan. She has also been charged with laundering state-owned money in Swiss banks, in a case that remains before a Swiss court. Her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, spent eight years in prison although he was never convicted. He was kept in solitary confinement and claims to have been tortured. Human rights groups also claim that Zardari's rights have been violated. Former prime minister Nawaz Sharif has recently apologized for his involvement in the prolonged imprisonment of Zardari and the cases filed against Bhutto. Zardari was released in November 2004. It is alleged that they stole hundreds of millions of dollars by demanding 'commissions' on government contracts and other dealings. Over the past 10 years the couple have faced about 90 cases combined, none of which have been proven. Eight cases still remain. Bhutto maintains that all the cases are politicaly motivated and says she is ready to face them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto

There is strong evidence against her for her corruption charges and this is why she is hated by the entire people of Pakistan. Since leaving Pakistan she has also been encourages other nations to adopt policies against Pakistani people and against the Muslim world in general. She is under the unfluence and support of many Anti-Muslim groups in the West.

On the possibility of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto's return, Mr Khan said that cases filed against her had little to do with this government. "If she wants to return she will have to face trial. There is no other option available to her," he said. The government could not do anything for her as the cases were with the courts, he added.

He said their was a need for strengthening and implementing bilateral extradition treaties in order to bring back "plunderers of public money and take them to task".

On accountability, Mr Khan said every country should have institutions like the National Accountability Bureau to check misuse of power and other malpractices.

http://www.khaleejtimes.co.ae/ktarchive/171202/subcont.htm

Let her come back to Pakistan and face trial then, why is she running away from Justice? Because obviously she is guilty.

Mr. (Q), I suggest you do some more research on Pakistan before your next post.

Peace

 

[GeoffP]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I guess America is also a Christian law country since majority of its population are Christians.

Many of the laws are indeed based on Christian doctrine; no denying that. Nor are all these laws bad; in fact, the majority are good. But Western justice has a social empathy to them that hudood lacks, and probably hates.

Pakistan's modern government is NOT based on Islam. You should look at this website.

"with provisions to accommodate Pakistan's status as an Islamic state; accepts compulsory ICJ [Islamic Council of Justice, perchance?] jurisdiction, with reservations"

I think that says it all. Islamic law. I'd be willing to bet that felonious law is primarily or entirely hudood. And what could be fairer than punishing women for being raped?

There is strong evidence against her for her corruption charges and this is why she is hated by the entire people of Pakistan. Since leaving Pakistan she has also been encourages other nations to adopt policies against Pakistani people and against the Muslim world in general. She is under the unfluence and support of many Anti-Muslim groups in the West.

The latter being unsubstantiated propaganda, I note again that:

"Over the past 10 years the couple have faced about 90 cases combined, none of which have been proven. Eight cases still remain. Bhutto maintains that all the cases are politicaly motivated and says she is ready to face them."

Which kind of belies the accusation that she's dodging justice. 90 cases, though, eh? And not a single one proven? My my. I wonder why so many cases might be pressed against a politician in Pakistan? Aren't the military in charge now? And how did they get there? Based on the presumed corruption of Ms. Bhutto? Hmm. No bias there, surely?

Let her come back to Pakistan and face trial then, why is she running away from Justice? Because obviously she is guilty.

Actually, she's running away from Pakistan, a country that punishes women for being raped and which is not known for its dignified treatment of women in prison, either.

It would seem that Q has done his research. Have you done yours, legalist?

Geoff

 

[vincent]

dids you kwnows its only 60pence or 90 ce nts for a bottlees of beer oin thailands ewhat a bargain chheeers

 

[DiamondHearts]

As far as most of what I see here, how about a little reasearch, check out, Google, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Hitler NAZI, SS, there is a lot of interesting information about the connections of modern Islam and Hitler's NAZI, and the holocaust,The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to "our hero al-Husseini" as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance

This information is from Zionist and Israeli historians, why should we believe something which is so obviously biased? It's wrong to say that Islamic people helped initiate Holocaust, this is trying to denegrate Muslims and particularly Palestinian struggle. These leaders only asked anyone willing who can help rid Palestine of Israeli settlers who were taking land and killing Palestinians and they met with any country willing to help them. This information that Palestinians helped start Holocause is just speculation. So the Palestinian leaders met with any leader willing to help them. Anyone would tdo the same in their position. Look at Iran meeting with and seeking support from Russia and China to help support them against America and Europeans.

Peace.