how peaceful is islam ?
- Thread starter leopold
- Start date
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
(Q) said:
Women have the right to do anything a man can do in an ideal Islamic society. Their only restrictions are on clothing. Women are allowed to drive, and I'm proud to say we have many schools for women in the Muslim world. Even in pre-American Afghanistan, the Taliban had hundreds of female schools.
(Q) said:
Allah (swt) created people with a freedom to choose between right and wrong. Allah (swt) allows injustice to occur to test and strengthen the believers and to grant martyrdom to innocents and brave soldiers who die. Allah (swt) Master plan will be fulfilled, and Allah (swt) alone knows the full wisdom of His will. We as simple weak humans have no right to judge Allah (swt), but Allah swt has every right to judge us.
(Q) said:
Allah swt created everyone in the pure state of goodness and Islam, it is people who are cultured into their religion or adopt different methods of living. Allah swt lets people make their own choices to see who will obey Him with their own free will, these servants are better than the angels and other creation who have no choice but to obey Allah swt.
(Q) said:
Allah swt allows them to transgress due to His will that human beings have freedom of choice, however He will hold them responsible for what they do.
(Q) said:
Allah swt created freedom for all people to judge between right and wrong, those Americans who support genocide are wrong, while those Americans who oppose the genocide are right. Allah swt will reward good and punish evil.
(Q) said:
Allah swt allowed all humans to make their choices. If some critics defame His religion and His beloved servants, then Allah swt will deal with them in this life and the next the way He chooses. It is not for us to decide the fate of others, Allah swt forgives who He wills and punishes who He wills with His Supreme Wisdom and Absolute Justice.
leopold99 said:
Allah swt is the only true God, He is the Lord and Cherisher of all creation whether they recognize Him or not.
leopold99 said:
They can believe what they wish. If they want to embrace Islam, then Allah swt will reward them. If they reject Islam with full knowledge of its teachings Allah swt will punish them.
If they believe in one and only God, without any division, who is not like human beings but is beyond perfection in form, and possesses All Power and Dominance in the universe. They are correct if they believe in One Allah swt, like us.
leopold99 said:
I believe everyone has the right to practice their religion, as does Islam.
leopold99 said:
We don't wage war on religion, we wage war on oppression, genocide, and injustice.
May Allah strengthen Muslim resistance in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kashmir, Chechnya, and Palestine. May Allah guide those who seek true knowledge.
Peace.
Then why was that guy who converted to Christianity in Afganistan under the threat of a death sentence that he only avoided by being declared insane?DiamondHearts said:
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
Everyone has the right to practice their religion.
However in an Islamic state it is illegal to propagate a religion other than Islam to Muslims.
The convert is an apostate and changed from Islam to another religion and did so publicly and engaged in propagation of his new religion.
These are criminal offenses in Islamic law.
In an Islamic state, there is no leniency for those who convert from Islam to another religion.
This encourages more apostasy and undermines the Islamic character of the state.
However the Islamic character of the American puppet state of Afghanistan is debatable.
Peace.
However in an Islamic state it is illegal to propagate a religion other than Islam to Muslims.
The convert is an apostate and changed from Islam to another religion and did so publicly and engaged in propagation of his new religion.
These are criminal offenses in Islamic law.
In an Islamic state, there is no leniency for those who convert from Islam to another religion.
This encourages more apostasy and undermines the Islamic character of the state.
However the Islamic character of the American puppet state of Afghanistan is debatable.
Peace.
You don't see a contradiction there? Sure, you're free to practice any religion you want, but if you convert from Islam to something else, we'll kill you. One more example of the religion of peace in action!DiamondHearts said:
islam, the perfect dictatorship
islam does not satisfy the will of the people
by your own words diamondhearts islam does not preach religious freedom
your religion diamond hearts, if it is to succede, must practice tolerance.
tolerance for all people, all cultures, all religions
you are pissing up the wrong tree if you think that america will be a one religion country
you want to see religious diversity? take a walk down a new york street sometime and tell me how many religions you see.
it is wrong of islam to force its religion on anybody and by your own admission that is exactly what it does
islam does not satisfy the will of the people
by your own words diamondhearts islam does not preach religious freedom
your religion diamond hearts, if it is to succede, must practice tolerance.
tolerance for all people, all cultures, all religions
you are pissing up the wrong tree if you think that america will be a one religion country
you want to see religious diversity? take a walk down a new york street sometime and tell me how many religions you see.
it is wrong of islam to force its religion on anybody and by your own admission that is exactly what it does
DiamondHearts said:
Of course, an "ideal Islamic society" does not exist, nor will it ever exist. And once again, you change your claims of women having no restrictions.
Again, you fail to see the obvious contradictions and paradoxes that Islam is riddled with, that is why we MUST question your god. Allah does not just allow injustice to occur, he creates the injustice, he send people to hell, that is his master plan. Unfortunately, you ignore that.
Then, if Allah creates everyone "in the pure state of goodness and Islam" why is there so much evil in the world, who created that? It MUST have been Allah.
No, you are lying. You said Allah is all powerful and controls everything, therefore he controls those who transgress.
Allah created the people who support genocide. Allah created Muslims who also support genocide, yet he has no problem with that.
Your propaganda is self-defeating. Allah is creator of all evil, that is, if you believe he is the creator of all things, which you've claimed many times already.
They have no choice but to reject, Allah controls all things.
That is a lie, as can be seen in another thread in which you placed a quote stating that anyone who does not follow Islam will be cast into hellfires.
You wage war, justified and sanctified by your religion. Your religion oppresses, supports genocide and creates injustice. Those are facts.
So, on one hand you want to strengthen resistance in those countries and then you have the nerve to end it with "Peace?"
Baloney!
i suggest that the name calling be disposed of.
if you feel islam is a piece of worthless shit religion then by all means say so
if you feel christianity is the most fucked up religion on the planet then by all means say so
but lets keep the personal attacks to a minimum shall we?
diamondhearts
i do not have any problems with you personaly
but i do have serious doubts if islam fulfills the will of the people
it's apparent that i, as a christian, and you, as a muslim, share a great deal in our religious beliefs
if you feel islam is a piece of worthless shit religion then by all means say so
if you feel christianity is the most fucked up religion on the planet then by all means say so
but lets keep the personal attacks to a minimum shall we?
diamondhearts
i do not have any problems with you personaly
but i do have serious doubts if islam fulfills the will of the people
it's apparent that i, as a christian, and you, as a muslim, share a great deal in our religious beliefs
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
In an Islamic State where the main reason of the state is to spread Islam and promote justice, honor, and peace, it would be against the very nature of the state to allow Muslims to convert from their religion in the state.
This would be similar to a Capitalist pubicly proclaiming himself a Communist or Anarchist inside a Materialistic Capitalist society. This would encourage rebelllion and undermine the Capitalist nature of the state.
Everyone who proclaims himself to be a Christian, Jew, or of another religion has every right to practice their religion in peace and security. This right is protected personally by the Islamic State.
Those who proclaim themselves to be Muslims in an Islamic state are subjected to the Islamic laws regarding execution if they leave their faith. This is treason against the Islamic state and encourages more people to leave Islam, hence why it is punishable.
In the Islamic history, some Muslim kings did not enforce this rule and every time it lead to rebellion and the formation of anti-government forces. One example of this are the Khazarij, who had nearly defeated the Islamic state using alliances from outside forces of bedouins. In the end they were defeated, but many people were murdered and there was alot of devastation. After this more Islamic governments were aware of the dangers of not enforcing this rule.
There needs to be a proper trial and proper evidence, if the defendant denies this in court then he is not punished.
Even if an individual deeply believes this, to say it in public is detrimental to the Islamic state, which is why its banned. If an individual privately believes, then he cannot be sentenced with any punishment.
America can practice whatever they desire. I don't care as long as they don't infringe on my right to practice my religion or kill innocent Muslims. I don't care.
However, America will defend the right one Afghani ex-Muslim to convert to another religion, but how many children, women, and elderly in Afghanistan have you killed without remorse. Bombing wedding parties, schools, hospitals, why do they not see that as insult to human rights?
Do you see Muslims flushing Bibles or Torah down the toilets? Do you see Muslims defiling images of Holy Jesus or Moses (a)?
Muslims respect other religious beliefs and support their practice among their devoted adherents.
If you people actually practiced your religion, you would see how dishonorable it is to kill Muslim civilians for no reason other than their nationality, but then defend the right of a one Afghani to convert from Islam.
West guarantees freedom to insult other religions, but in an Islamic State it is illegal to curse Jesus or Moses or Buddha (a). Freedom to not have your religion insulted, Islamic state guarantees this.
Freedom to practice your religion in prison or in jail, Islamic State guarantees this. Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghareeb and many other jails give freedom to defile prisoners and freedom to desecrate their holy books. What kind of freedom is this?
Islam bans racist portrayals of other human beings, and punishes those who encourage violence against other human beings. How many people do you see in the West publishing vile and racist cartoons to insult other races and ethnicities?
Islam respects the right of others who don't agree with the concept of an Islamic State and Islamic law to live under the courts of their respective clergy if they choose. What other religion guarantees this right to its people?
Islam allows exemption of its Non-Muslim populations from Muslim yearly tax (Zakat), Muslim laws against alcohol, pork, etc, and Military service in exchange for the payment of Jizya tax (military exemption tax) which is issued in place of Zakat as is a similar amount. Using the Jizya, an Islamic State funds the construction and building of new shrines, temples, and churches and secures their rights in the Islamic State.
Non-Muslims are not allowed to convert Muslims from Islam, is this the only argument you can come up with to insult the Islamic State?
As I see it, Islam gives far more rights to its religious minorities than Capitalism and is a preferred way of living for all human beings.
I believe an Islamic state should be enforced only in an area where the majority of the population agrees with the concept of Islam, which is why I support the establishment of Islam as a ruling system only in Muslim majority countries.
It is also worth noting the differences between the systems of Capitalism and Islamic Khalifah as economic ideologies.
Capitalism is the direction of all facilities and resources to the establishment of economic revenue. However we ask, does this mean a more fair system for the economically unfortunate or does this infact mean more wealth for the top wealthiest 10% of the country.
Now let us examine the teachings of Islam.
Peace.
This would be similar to a Capitalist pubicly proclaiming himself a Communist or Anarchist inside a Materialistic Capitalist society. This would encourage rebelllion and undermine the Capitalist nature of the state.
Everyone who proclaims himself to be a Christian, Jew, or of another religion has every right to practice their religion in peace and security. This right is protected personally by the Islamic State.
Those who proclaim themselves to be Muslims in an Islamic state are subjected to the Islamic laws regarding execution if they leave their faith. This is treason against the Islamic state and encourages more people to leave Islam, hence why it is punishable.
In the Islamic history, some Muslim kings did not enforce this rule and every time it lead to rebellion and the formation of anti-government forces. One example of this are the Khazarij, who had nearly defeated the Islamic state using alliances from outside forces of bedouins. In the end they were defeated, but many people were murdered and there was alot of devastation. After this more Islamic governments were aware of the dangers of not enforcing this rule.
There needs to be a proper trial and proper evidence, if the defendant denies this in court then he is not punished.
Even if an individual deeply believes this, to say it in public is detrimental to the Islamic state, which is why its banned. If an individual privately believes, then he cannot be sentenced with any punishment.
America can practice whatever they desire. I don't care as long as they don't infringe on my right to practice my religion or kill innocent Muslims. I don't care.
However, America will defend the right one Afghani ex-Muslim to convert to another religion, but how many children, women, and elderly in Afghanistan have you killed without remorse. Bombing wedding parties, schools, hospitals, why do they not see that as insult to human rights?
Do you see Muslims flushing Bibles or Torah down the toilets? Do you see Muslims defiling images of Holy Jesus or Moses (a)?
Muslims respect other religious beliefs and support their practice among their devoted adherents.
If you people actually practiced your religion, you would see how dishonorable it is to kill Muslim civilians for no reason other than their nationality, but then defend the right of a one Afghani to convert from Islam.
West guarantees freedom to insult other religions, but in an Islamic State it is illegal to curse Jesus or Moses or Buddha (a). Freedom to not have your religion insulted, Islamic state guarantees this.
Freedom to practice your religion in prison or in jail, Islamic State guarantees this. Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghareeb and many other jails give freedom to defile prisoners and freedom to desecrate their holy books. What kind of freedom is this?
Islam bans racist portrayals of other human beings, and punishes those who encourage violence against other human beings. How many people do you see in the West publishing vile and racist cartoons to insult other races and ethnicities?
Islam respects the right of others who don't agree with the concept of an Islamic State and Islamic law to live under the courts of their respective clergy if they choose. What other religion guarantees this right to its people?
Islam allows exemption of its Non-Muslim populations from Muslim yearly tax (Zakat), Muslim laws against alcohol, pork, etc, and Military service in exchange for the payment of Jizya tax (military exemption tax) which is issued in place of Zakat as is a similar amount. Using the Jizya, an Islamic State funds the construction and building of new shrines, temples, and churches and secures their rights in the Islamic State.
Non-Muslims are not allowed to convert Muslims from Islam, is this the only argument you can come up with to insult the Islamic State?
As I see it, Islam gives far more rights to its religious minorities than Capitalism and is a preferred way of living for all human beings.
I believe an Islamic state should be enforced only in an area where the majority of the population agrees with the concept of Islam, which is why I support the establishment of Islam as a ruling system only in Muslim majority countries.
It is also worth noting the differences between the systems of Capitalism and Islamic Khalifah as economic ideologies.
Capitalism is the direction of all facilities and resources to the establishment of economic revenue. However we ask, does this mean a more fair system for the economically unfortunate or does this infact mean more wealth for the top wealthiest 10% of the country.
Now let us examine the teachings of Islam.
Peace.
DiamondHearts said:
LOL - so, then, Western states should jail and execute muslims, since their stated goals - like killing and jailing people who leave islam - conflict with those of Western civilization? You always refuse to answer that.
I also note that this is not a "state"-level ordinance either; muslims abroad appear to have no compunction about killing those of their family who leave islam either - unless you think the ulema extends into Europe?
Well that must be why converts from islam are executed then. And why conversion to islam is allowed and even encouraged. Now that sounds fair.
And so what if people leave islam? What happens when the people of Iran finally abandon islam and the country becomes unislamic? Do they cease being people? Does the nation cease being? Do you, and other muslims, then have the right to attack it and "make all religion for allah"? Once the character of the nation changes, do they then have the right to oppress the muslims, or punish those who enter islam? What about when non-muslims become the majority?
Or maybe those people just wanted to be free, and unoppressed. Maybe if you stopped hating those wise enough to abandon islam so much, they'd stop trying to revolt.
I note this answer of Diamond's also pretty much addresses the question of whether or not there could ever be an islamic Reformation or Renaissance: it's seen as revolution, not reenlightenment.
So islam doesn't promise "thoughtcrime". Well, that's partially reassuring. Then, of course, Saudi Arabia does indeed persecute private, non-islamic practice of religion, so you'll forgive me if I have some doubts about this argument of yours.
As for bombing wedding parties, schools and hospitals, I agree that this is a most criminal action of the Sunni terrorists in Iraq, and of Palestinian ones in Israel. But what does America have to do with this? I suppose you could say the war destabilized the region - but merely because someone puts a gun in my hand does not mean I have to use it. Turn your swords into plowshares. And why shouldn't America defend the right of a person to religious freedom?
I seem them railing against not just Christianity and Judaism but also against secularism in mosques and on ME TV all the time. (I suggest you try www.memri.org for translations; the people there are experts in Arabic and the ME political situation, very knowledgeable indeed.) Also, I note that "shirk", the placing of "partners with God" is used as a representation of Christianity in islamic discourse; the shahada, which is a vowal against the concept of "shirk", is considered to be from "one half" to "one third" (depending on the speaker) of islam. Moreover, shirk is considered in many islamic quarters to be the one unforgivable sin, or nearly so.
See above on "shirk".
Actually, no one was killed "just for their nationality". This is a misunderstanding of yours. Why do you want us to let you kill this man?
Then it is not freedom. Freedom is the freedom to believe and disbelieve.
?? None. Moreover, I see you never responded to the points about Mohammed's racism; your claim is a little dubious.
Here in the West we prefer to try people based on their actual innocence or guilt, rather than relying on the flawed religious impressions of piety or impiety.
Which has often historically been optional, while forcing them to pay the punitive jizya, usually levied at twice that of zakaat
at their discretion, which is never. By example, I think the first church ever built in the ulema in the last 1000 years or so was recently built in Qatar. Or they're trying to get it built.
Why do you think that any criticism of your system is construed as an insult? Is it because you are incapable of admitting any wrongdoing, or because you think your system is perfect? (Actually I think you've admitted to both.) Other ways in which I might criticize your system include: the restricted rights of non-muslims, the murdering of apostates, the murdering of homosexuals, the oppression of women (including restricted property, social and civil rights, as well as the permission of physical abuse against women), extreme penalties against other social crimes, inequities of taxation, authoritarian political organization, the lack of humanitarian social contracts with the people, and so on.
Ultimately, however you want to oppress your people is fine, though. Perhaps we should just cut off the ulema and let you live on your own and us on our own; no contact, no discussion, no assistance.
This must be a joke. Capitalism - which, incidentally is no more the system we live under than it is the system you live under - has no preferences whatever for any religion. It's amusing how with one breath you claim that the West oppresses religious minorities, and then with the other breath that you think we should.
And again: when the majority of the population changes its view? What you seem to be arguing for here is religious fascism.
Oh? And how much more is spent per capita on the economically unfortunate, on social support and infrastructure, and on social assistance in so-called "capitalist" countries compared to islamic ones?
Geoff
There are no "Islamic states".
Islam is a peaceful religion - born in persecution and war - with the followers being given clear edicts of how to wage war in fairness and how to find peace in time of war.
The fact that the Faith has outlasted the war is in no way the fault of the Prophet Muhammad, nor the fact that most of the people prefer war to Peace. Reading the edicts of Islam one finds that the law is very very clear - and the confusions that we see today are the result of something called "Islamic jurisprudence" - in other words - human tampering.
QT
The fact that the Faith has outlasted the war is in no way the fault of the Prophet Muhammad, nor the fact that most of the people prefer war to Peace. Reading the edicts of Islam one finds that the law is very very clear - and the confusions that we see today are the result of something called "Islamic jurisprudence" - in other words - human tampering.
QT
Generalizing is ignorant, either way. You can't attack a whole belief system based on the actions of a few. Are there fundamentalist muslims? Yes. Are there fundamentalist christians? Yes. Are there fundamentalist jews? Yes. What does it say? Fundamentalists are bad, for indoctrinating their interpretation of the belief onto others, who are sheep-minded fools and will do exactly what they've been told for some reason. What do to? Stop telling other people how to interpret their beliefs according to religious 'laws', and stop telling people what to do and how to live their lives according to the system of the proper faith.
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
leopold99 said:
what do you mean by honor killings. Please define it.
What I have understood is people have this false notion that women who get raped are killed, this is completely against the teachings of Islam.
I have already said I disagree with the concept. It's not even a common practice in the Islamic world or any Islamic country.
Because some isolated tribal people practice something, doesn't make it right and when governments and people find anti-Islamic practices like honor killings, we punish the guilty. If some isolated tribalists engage it in a particular country, does not make it refelct the entire country either.
What about killings which US engages in Afghanistan and Iraq civilians, what of killings of Israeli honor killings of Palestinian children and civilians? How many people have been killed, and will be killed by American and Israeli terrorism in the future?
Peace.