how peaceful is islam ?

[GeoffP]

which came first, hindi nationalists or islamic nationalists? Ghandi wanted a unified India, muslims a partitioned tri-state; Hindu India, & muslim Pakistan & East Pakistan (Bengladesh)

Interesting point.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

.All Muslims follow the same Quran, 1400 years old.

yes, the one imposed on them by Calif Uthman
you'll note that the Yemeni gov has withdrawn ancient quranic scrolls from view by scholars, seems that they were diff from the edited version, tsk-tsk

Hadith scholars and Islamic teachers. There are many points of view.

yeah, but what does Osama say? Ain’t he the expert?

The Moors were never known to force people into Islam, quite the opposite. They allowed religious freedom unlike the Catholics who succeeded them.

seems you only get the sugar-coated version of islamic history, if it was so sweet, why did the Spanish & Portuguese spend 781 years getting rid of them? must be true infidels, so perverse, don't you think? not to let themselves be rightly guided by such sweet, soft hands,

so, what's a dhimmi?
would you pay a jizya tax to live in a western country?
Should you?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9043677/jizya

 

[pjdude1219]

wrong.
in dar ul harb anyone who is not islamic and does not covert should be killed.
killing is justified in the Quran.

by suggesting that there are 50 sects and pluralism in Islam is also incorrect.

um i've read portions of the quran and its you who is wrong

 

[WildBlueYonder]

All Muslims follow the same Quran, 1400 years old.

doesn't seem what the evidence is showing now, more like edited, I guess calif Uthman did not destroy all the evidence, also I hear that the quran is not clear to arabic speakers, that it goes from 1st to 3rd person when speaking about allah, is that true?
it would tend to show that neither allah, jibril nor Mohammad, knew arabic well enough to transmit the unchanging word of allah, perfectly to a waiting world

see article below:

J A N U A R Y 1 9 9 9​

Original article on The Atlantic Monthly.

Researchers with a variety of academic and theological interests are proposing controversial theories about the Koran and Islamic history, and are striving to reinterpret Islam for the modern world. This is, as one scholar puts it, a "sensitive business"

by Toby Lester


IN 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure's inner and outer roofs stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, although they did not realize it at the time. Their ignorance was excusable: mosques do not normally house graves, and this site contained no tombstones, no human remains, no funereal jewelry. It contained nothing more, in fact, than an unappealing mash of old parchment and paper documents -- damaged books and individual pages of Arabic text, fused together by centuries of rain and dampness, gnawed into over the years by rats and insects.

…
Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God
…
In the early decades of the Arab conquests many members of Muhammad's coterie were killed, and with them died valuable knowledge of the Koranic revelations. Muslims at the edges of the empire began arguing over what was Koranic scripture and what was not. An army general returning from Azerbaijan expressed his fears about sectarian controversy to the Caliph 'Uthman (644-656) -- the third Islamic ruler to succeed Muhammad -- and is said to have entreated him to "overtake this people before they differ over the Koran the way the Jews and Christians differ over their Scripture." 'Uthman convened an editorial committee of sorts that carefully gathered the various pieces of scripture that had been memorized or written down by Muhammad's companions. The result was a standard written version of the Koran. 'Uthman ordered all incomplete and "imperfect" collections of the Koranic scripture destroyed, and the new version was quickly distributed to the major centers of the rapidly burgeoning empire.

During the next few centuries, while Islam solidified as a religious and political entity, a vast body of exegetical and historical literature evolved to explain the Koran and the rise of Islam, the most important elements of which are hadith, or the collected sayings and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad; sunna, or the body of Islamic social and legal custom; sira, or biographies of the Prophet; and tafsir, or Koranic commentary and explication. It is from these traditional sources -- compiled in written form mostly from the mid eighth to the mid tenth century -- that all accounts of the revelation of the Koran and the early years of Islam are ultimately derived.

From: http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts2.htm

 

[WildBlueYonder]

um i've read portions of the quran and its you who is wrong

you should read the whole
you will detect editing, a mish-mash put together, without clear content

in english it’s bad enough to put people to sleep, which probably means they missed Osama's "call to arms" verses

there is no good reason for the qibla (direction of prayer) going from Jerusalem to Mecca, except that Jews didn't convert, so Mohammad went back to his roots

from reading it, it seems Mohammad didn't know about cosmology, science, Christianity or Judaism beliefs

it is interesting that it goes from largest to shortest suras, & since it was supposedly collected from stones, palm leaves & parchments, a clear sign of editing

 

[WildBlueYonder]

you relize that evangelical christians meet alot of the conditions

could you point out which ones, so that I'd know, being that I am an EC

 

[GeoffP]

um i've read portions of the quran and its you who is wrong

The Sura to which Yonder is referring offers the threefold choice: death, conversion or "oppression", which, oddly enough, Mohammed considers "worse than slaughter" elsewhere, yet sees no problem inflicting it on others.

 

[Challenger78]

but not many control gov's, fund &/or train terrorists, send suicide bombers into other countries; afghanistan, indonesia, iran, syria, sudan, did i miss any?

Bush would not have come to power without the extreme right fundamentalists and ordered the invasion of Iraq. Given the chance, fundamentalists in any religion would do that if that was the best and only way to get what they desired.
Also, Many are not fundamentalists but see terrorism as the only way to achieve their goals. I'm not defending the 9/11 hijackers, i'm pointing out that there are other fundamentalist organizations in the world who did and would turn to terrorism and Sucide bombings , given enough reasons for it.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Bush would not have come to power without the extreme right fundamentalists and ordered the invasion of Iraq. .

I think you missed the significance of Iraq, it’s the US business interests that wanted it
1) Neo-cons are a mixed bag; Jewish, Christian, see link to PNAC http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
2) Cheney had secret meetings for formulating energy policy, to this day no one will fess up as to what was discussed
3) destabilize the region, oil prices go up & up, Big oil rakes in the $$$Billions
4) see who profits from reconstruction contracts, not Iraqis
5) there’s a saying from the 60’s in regards to Nixon & Watergate, “follow the money”, so Mr., see if you can do a better job than our lazy press & news media

 

[DiamondHearts]

you should read the whole
you will detect editing, a mish-mash put together, without clear content

in english it’s bad enough to put people to sleep, which probably means they missed Osama's "call to arms" verses

there is no good reason for the qibla (direction of prayer) going from Jerusalem to Mecca, except that Jews didn't convert, so Mohammad went back to his roots

from reading it, it seems Mohammad didn't know about cosmology, science, Christianity or Judaism beliefs

it is interesting that it goes from largest to shortest suras, & since it was supposedly collected from stones, palm leaves & parchments, a clear sign of editing

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. I can gather from your response that you have probably never read the Quran.

Mixing extreme Christian evangelical zealotry, racism, and intense xenophobic generalizations about Islam and Muslims. How do you plan to convince us otherwise if you come off this way.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. I can gather from your response that you have probably never read the Quran.

got one in my bookcase, Pickthall, use it when I read Christian commentaries, but I use online versions for links. & you obviously don't read my posts carefully, otherwise you'd know that

Mixing extreme Christian evangelical zealotry, racism, and intense xenophobic generalizations about Islam and Muslims. How do you plan to convince us otherwise if you come off this way.

hey, you guys do a pretty good job yourselves, I could just used what muslims have written, they are pretty graphic all right, feeling that they were doing allah's work, they weren't shy about telling what they did, or still do; see Darfur rape, pillage, genocide


as for being xenophobic; no go bud, I've hung with Pilipino, Saudis, Kuwaitis, Lebanese, Sri Lankan, Koreans, Chinese, Indonesians, Malays, Cambodian, Laotians, Brits, Vietnamese, Hmong, even Texans

in work, church, social, dating & as part of hobby orgs

 

[S.A.M.]

you should read the whole
you will detect editing, a mish-mash put together, without clear content

in english it’s bad enough to put people to sleep, which probably means they missed Osama's "call to arms" verses

there is no good reason for the qibla (direction of prayer) going from Jerusalem to Mecca, except that Jews didn't convert, so Mohammad went back to his roots

from reading it, it seems Mohammad didn't know about cosmology, science, Christianity or Judaism beliefs

it is interesting that it goes from largest to shortest suras, & since it was supposedly collected from stones, palm leaves & parchments, a clear sign of editing

Perhaps you might consider that in Arabic it has rhyme and meter, which is lost in translation.

Also, two questions,

1. what is a Tahfiz?

2. What were the councils of nicea?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Perhaps you might consider that in Arabic it has rhyme and meter, which is lost in translation.

& that makes a difference because? so what you are saying is that the quran was written in arabic, by an arabic man, for an arabic god, if it were really divine, it would translate into english, sppanish, hindi in rhyme & meter too, now that would be a miricle and a sure sign that its to be studied deligiently, to find out why?

Also, two questions,

1. what is a Tahfiz?

its memorization

Tahfiz (Memorization of) Al-Qur'an (Quran)
Product Description
Tahfiz Al-Qur'an is a real educational process in which the user can listen to, watch and repeat after the tutor the correct Arabic pronunciation and learn the principles of reading the Qur'an and the rules of Qur'anic recitation, in addition to memorizing by the means of the scientific method of checking one's own memorization and comparing it to the recitation in the program.

2. What were the councils of nicea?

it was

The First Council of Nicaea, held in Nicaea in Bithynia (in present-day Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325, was the first ecumenical[1] conference of bishops of the Christian Church, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent 'general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops' (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.

The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
it was to resolve heretic beliefs

The Second Council of Nicaea was the seventh ecumenical council of Christianity; it met in 787 AD in Nicaea (site of the First Council of Nicaea) to restore the honoring of icons (or, holy images), which had been suppressed by imperial edict inside the Byzantine Empire during the reign of Leo III (717 - 741). His son, Constantine V (741 - 775), had held a synod to make the suppression official.

Although the veneration of icons had been finally abolished by the energetic measures of Constantine V and the Council of Hieria. These iconoclastic tendencies were shared by his son, Leo IV. After the latter's early death, his widow Irene, as regent for her son, began its restoration, moved thereto by personal inclination and political considerations.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_Nicaea
met on whether to have icons or not
can you ask me harder questions? specially, since you don't answer mine, but evade you, taqiyya, you

if you're really interested, try these

Select Bibliography

The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV – Athanasius: Select Works & Letters

Early Christian Doctrines by J.N.D. Kelly

The History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3 by Philip Schaff

The Creed of Christendom, Vols. 1&2 by Phillip Schaff

Historical Theology, Vol. 1 by William Cunningham

The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Vol. 1 by Jaroslav Pelikan

Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin

The Divine Triunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by Francis Cheynell (I owe some of my insights of this period to a Ph.D course I am currently taking on The Rise of Anti-trinitarianism in 17th Century England with Dr. Paul Lim).

Nice and Hot Disputes: The Doctrine of the Trinity in the Seventeenth Century by Philip Dixon

The Forgotten Trinity by James White

Evangelical Dictionary of Theology ed. by Walter A. Elwell

New Dictionary of Theology ed. by Sinclair B. Ferguson, David F. Wright, and J.I. Packer

from: http://www.reformation21.org/Past_I...sues_1_16_Miscellaneous/Council_of_Nicea/267/
what? you were expecting "the da Vinci Code"?