Holy texts should be respected by scholars

[(Q)]

I think it was einstein who said that he wasn't sure what weapons would be used to fight the third world war but he was sure that the fourth one would be fought with rocks and sticks -

we could be moving back to the cave sooner than you think

Best to start removing theists from power, ASAP!

 

[S.A.M.]

A theist is unable to determine what is rational and what is not.

My my! how very patronising we are!

You didn't mention whether you follow it to the letter or only the parts you designed?

What letter? I follow it according to the Quran, which is more than sufficient for me.

Yes, most atheists here are sick and tired of theists cramming their nonsense down our throats and having it affect our lives.

How un-secular of you!

Which philosophy? The one in which atheists hold not to do harm to others? Yes, I can understand how that would have a negative impact to Muslims. They could no longer kill apostates. Bummer, huh?

What others? Do these others include theists? How? By condescending to them? Discriminating against them? That should work very well.

BTW - have you been praying for Allah to feed the starving children? I noticed they're still dying each day. I suppose those prayers will never be answered.

Allah really knows how to dish out the challenges, doesn't he?

Yes. Are you upto them? I suppose you are bringing world peace by tomorrow?

 

[S.A.M.]

Not when theists are making changes to society based on their irrational beliefs. I don't go around killing people simply because they want to leave their faith.

Nor do all theists; and there are more murderers than there are terrorists;
more people die because of child abuse, elder abuse and intimate partner violence than in armed conflicts. Of course, they don't all get together and die simultaneously in front of you so you are excused for this ignorance. Plus, as I've told you ad nauseum, people have killed all throughout human history. This is more to do with the greed for power than with religion. You are blind if you cannot see it.

Education is fine, but religion can't be reformed, that would make it flawed to begin with. Why would it need reform if it's perfect?

The people need education and reform not the religion.

Such as what?

Impose their ideas on others "for their own good"?

Isn't that exactly what Muhammed claimed? Yes, we knew he was the most dangerous man in the world, based on your logic, of course.

So did Gandhi and Jesus; they thought everyone else was like them and could be trusted to see what is right....sound familiar? Look where that's got us.

As certain as a working theory works, until a better one comes along. What's your point?

That certainty eliminates the possibilty of alternatives co-existing alongside.
It is a major problem with fundamentalists.

To stop believing in sky daddies? How is that a problem?

You really have a very high opinion of your ability to convince people, don't you? Tell me have you manged to convince anyone on this forum yet? ( besides the yes-men who cling to your apron strings, that is)

Not doing harm to others is wrong, how?

Says the man(?) who gets on the soapbox and screeches "Propaganda!!!" when anyone tries to "save" him!

What about Muhammed?

Do you think he forsaw how some Muslims would denigrate Islam?

His cherished dream was that the philosophy of Islam would bring peace to the whole world.

 

[S.A.M.]

Best to start removing theists from power, ASAP!

What? Getting the power high already? Better work off some of that testosterone before you start the next world war.

 

[lightgigantic]

Best to start removing theists from power, ASAP!

Actually the problem will be solved when religion is partnered with philosophy and science is partnered with an understanding of the absolute truth - otherwise its just an issue of anything goes that one can get away with, WW3 included .....
What was the cold war of the 80's? theological or ideological?

 

[(Q)]

My my! how very patronising we are!

I know how ridiculous that statement was, but it showed two things; it's as absolute as theists proclaim their gods to be, and it divides us into groups in which one is assumes superiority over the other, believers and infidels.

What letter? I follow it according to the Quran, which is more than sufficient for me.

"To the letter" is slang for 'following every detail.' In other words, do you follow every detail in the Quran, or just some of it?

How un-secular of you!

Huh?

What others? Do these others include theists? How? By condescending to them? Discriminating against them? That should work very well.

You can't 'discriminate' ones gods in the same way you discriminate someone on the basis of sex or race. That's just silly.

Theists discriminate against sex and race. Will you be refuting that one?

Yes. Are you upto them? I suppose you are bringing world peace by tomorrow?

Sorry, I'm not up to the challenge of Allah murdering thousands of children each day, so that your faith in him is strong.

Why doesn't Allah bring world peace tomorrow? Ask him that for me, would you, please? Ta.

 

[S.A.M.]

I know how ridiculous that statement was, but it showed two things; it's as absolute as theists proclaim their gods to be, and it divides us into groups in which one is assumes superiority over the other, believers and infidels.

Unlike atheists who perceive everyone as equal? Yessuh! Wotevva yuh sez suh!

"To the letter" is slang for 'following every detail.' In other words, do you follow every detail in the Quran, or just some of it?

Are you presuming to teach me English now?
Your arrogance is boundless!

Huh?

Surely you recognize the word?

Its what the future atheist society is going to be; with some more secular than others, of course!

You can't 'discriminate' ones gods in the same way you discriminate someone on the basis of sex or race. That's just silly.
Theists discriminate against sex and race. Will you be refuting that one?

Everyone discriminates on some basis or the other; ask me - I'm Indian Muslim and a woman- all I had to be in addition would be black and gay and I could be unequivocally discriminated against!

You discriminate against theists and have a serious prejudice against all religions, so you can get off your high horse right now!

Sorry, I'm not up to the challenge of Allah murdering thousands of children each day, so that your faith in him is strong.

Why doesn't Allah bring world peace tomorrow? Ask him that for me, would you, please? Ta.

Fine, how about saving them instead? Try to work with people rather than against them and you might actually get somewhere. Sanctimonious pup!

 

[(Q)]

Nor do all theists; and there are more murderers than there are terrorists;
more people die because of child abuse, elder abuse and intimate partner violence than in armed conflicts. Of course, they don't all get together and die simultaneously in front of you so you are excused for this ignorance. Plus, as I've told you ad nauseum, people have killed all throughout human history. This is more to do with the greed for power than with religion. You are blind if you cannot see it.

Yes, greed and power brought on by generations of religious thought, again from the link you never read:

"Man's reaction to his world has been of two kinds: first, he surrenders to the forces of his world and drifts in the stream of its factors; second, he asserts himself upon the surroundings and harnesses the factors to satisfy his needs.

The former is motivated by the slave mind and the other by his sense of freedom.

Primitive man whose knowledge was meagre and sense of security weak, was more prone to be timid and submissive than bold and assertive. His method of understanding was simple and anthropomorphously analogical. So he imagined that a man-like god created and controlled the world and he surrendered to the concept. That god should have been conceived in masculine form reflects man's domination."

The people need education and reform not the religion.

Again, the religion has failed if education and reformation are required. A 'perfect' belief system shouldn't require anything.

Impose their ideas on others "for their own good"?

What ideas, exactly?

So did Gandhi and Jesus; they thought everyone else was like them and could be trusted to see what is right....sound familiar? Look where that's got us.

First of all, we only know that Gandhi actually existed and he did no such thing. You're way off the mark.

That certainty eliminates the possibilty of alternatives co-existing alongside.
It is a major problem with fundamentalists.

The alternative to freedom is slavery, and they do not co-exist.

You really have a very high opinion of your ability to convince people, don't you? Tell me have you manged to convince anyone on this forum yet? ( besides the yes-men who cling to your apron strings, that is)

Someone convinced you to believe in sky daddies. Have you questioned their opinions?

Says the man(?) who gets on the soapbox and screeches "Propaganda!!!" when anyone tries to "save" him!

Save from what? Your version of an eternal damnation? hehe

Do you think he forsaw how some Muslims would denigrate Islam?

Of course he did, he was the pipeline to Allah, and Allah (ablaze be his name) knows everything. But I applaud your attempt at questioning your own religion. What is your answer to your question?

His cherished dream was that the philosophy of Islam would bring peace to the whole world.

And nothing to do with power and riches, that which he ultimately attained instead?

Tell me this, even if Islam covered the world, how would you stop the fighting between the different factions of Islam? They really do hate each other, you know. Most likely, world peace will never occur under an Islamic state, ever.

 

[(Q)]

Unlike atheists who perceive everyone as equal? Yessuh! Wotevva yuh sez suh!

Yes, equal in their non-belief of sky daddies. Equal in their principles of not doing harm to others. Equal in their endeavours to benefit mankind.

Are you presuming to teach me English now?
Your arrogance is boundless!

Isn't that what you asked? Could you please clarify your statements, I noticed you took all of 10 minutes to read my post and respond to it. I get the feeling your not taking much effort here. Perhaps you are giving up since you have no argument.

Everyone discriminates on some basis or the other; ask me - I'm Indian Muslim and a woman- all I had to be in addition would be black and gay and I could be unequivocally discriminated against!

I wouldn't discriminate you on account you're an Indian woman, or black or gay. That's just barbaric.

You discriminate against theists and have a serious prejudice against all religions, so you can get off your high horse right now!

Like I said, you can't discriminate against ones belief in sky daddies, that's just very poor use of English. Oops!

Fine, how about saving them instead? Try to work with people rather than against them and you might actually get somewhere. Sanctimonious pup!

Are you saying that Allah is as impotent as Billy Bicep flexing his muscles at the beach, and that Q, the sanctimonious pup, is to fly in and save the day?

But I wonder, if I could come up with enough food to feed them, wouldn't Allah simply bump up the numbers, challenging me further?

What next might he send to strengthen your faith in him? Famine, disease, pestulence, wars?

Oh wait, he already provides us with those.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes, greed and power brought on by generations of religious thought, again from the link you never read:

"Man's reaction to his world has been of two kinds: first, he surrenders to the forces of his world and drifts in the stream of its factors; second, he asserts himself upon the surroundings and harnesses the factors to satisfy his needs.

The former is motivated by the slave mind and the other by his sense of freedom.

Primitive man whose knowledge was meagre and sense of security weak, was more prone to be timid and submissive than bold and assertive. His method of understanding was simple and anthropomorphously analogical. So he imagined that a man-like god created and controlled the world and he surrendered to the concept. That god should have been conceived in masculine form reflects man's domination."

Some people will believe anything!

(I read it; sounds like you found YOUR scripture)

Again, the religion has failed if education and reformation are required. A 'perfect' belief system shouldn't require anything.

Of course! why didn't I think of that!

And all this time I've been thinking; people are devious, they'll twist any ideal to justify their hidden motives. But of course you're right! They've been waiting since the beginning of time for YOU!

What ideas, exactly?

I knew it! You don't actually have any ideas, you just keep jabbering about irrational theists because you don't like TV and there's nothing else to do (PS. This is sarcasm, in case you can't tell).

First of all, we only know that Gandhi actually existed and he did no such thing. You're way off the mark.

Ya I must've dreamt the whole India-pakistan partition; probably the Pink Unicorn who Flies sent me the Mirage.

The alternative to freedom is slavery, and they do not co-exist.

Freedom for belief or freedom from belief?
We are surely showing our true colors now.

Someone convinced you to believe in sky daddies. Have you questioned their opinions?

I'm questioning yours right now and you haven't convinced me yet.

Save from what? Your version of an eternal damnation? hehe

Exactly; your beliefs are equally ridiculous to me but my mother brought me up to be polite to the spiritually challenged.



:

eek:

Of course he did, he was the pipeline to Allah, and Allah (ablaze be his name) knows everything. But I applaud your attempt at questioning your own religion. What is your answer to your question?

If you dig into Islamic history, you'll find that Muhammed was just a man.

And nothing to do with power and riches, that which he ultimately attained instead?

Did he? He fought to defend Islam from the time he was 40 until he died. He stopped female infanticide in the Middle East. He educated his wives and daughters and consulted them on religous and political matters. Women fought alongside him in wars. He banned usury and helped provide for the poor and needy. He's the first man on the list of the 100 topmost influential men in history ( written by a Westerner). He was a compassionate and benevolent soldier who stood for his principles. You read some internet propaganda and make up your mind. Hardly the rational creature you keep claiming yourself to be. You don't even recognize the fact that anyone who uses character assassination to establish credibility has no credibility.

Tell me this, even if Islam covered the world, how would you stop the fighting between the different factions of Islam? They really do hate each other, you know. Most likely, world peace will never occur under an Islamic state, ever.

If vested intersests would leave the Islamic countries alone, they'd eventually find their way. They have mothers, wives and children they want a future for. They see European society and they know that is what they want to aim for. You've travelled so much in the ME, have you spoken to the teenagers, the young men ? They want education, good jobs, success. They feel oppressed under the hegemonies that deprive them of basic freedoms. They feel even more oppressed by Western people who cannot understand the cultural divide and mock and deride their ways. Tell me if the Arabs enforced their version of culture on the US, how acceptable would it be? Its imporatant to recognize that cultural differences diminish slowly, over a few generatons, not overnight.

 

[superluminal]

Some people will believe anything!

sam,

I thought you said muslims believed in evolution? Evolution encompasses the evolution of social systems and human psychology also. Part of this is the evolution of the "god" idea to explain the physical world in the absence of a better way to understand it. Yes? No? Maybe...?

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes, equal in their non-belief of sky daddies. Equal in their principles of not doing harm to others. Equal in their endeavours to benefit mankind

.

get off your soapbox, will you?

Isn't that what you asked? Could you please clarify your statements, I noticed you took all of 10 minutes to read my post and respond to it. I get the feeling your not taking much effort here. Perhaps you are giving up since you have no argument.

just because you take half an hour to marshall your arguments doesn't mean everyone else does too ( I'm a fast thinker when I know my stuff and I'm a fast typist, too, so there)...

You asked me do I follow Quran to the letter and I asked you what letter, IOW, the question is moot; I already explained you my philosophy which is based on the Quran, I do not pick one verse from random chapters, take them literally and decide that this is Islam. I've read the whole Quran, I've read as much as I could find about the circumstances which existed in Arabia during the rise of Islam, I've connected which verses were revealed topically and which were revealed during other times. The Quran is made up of 114 chapters, which contain both the history and philosophy of the religion. If you cannot tell which is which, and cannot be bothered to exert yourself to find out; or stop at the point where it most suits your nefarious purposes, don't go pointing fingers at other people who have actually taken the trouble to look at it. I've seen the references you've used. All anti-Islam propaganda and even you don't know who is behind it. I've noticed you have a habit of doing very superficial research; you don't examine closely to confirm the truth, you take one look determine that's that and feel smug and complacent in pointing out your findings as evidence of your "rightness" as an atheist.

I have no intention of repeating the same points over and over; I can tell you've already made up your mind and closed all doors.

I wouldn't discriminate you on account you're an Indian woman, or black or gay. That's just barbaric.

I notice you skipped the Muslim, well there's always one reason and one is more than enough.

Like I said, you can't discriminate against ones belief in sky daddies, that's just very poor use of English. Oops!

Before teaching me any English ( I'm good and I know it, buster!), try consulting a dictionary:

Definitions of discrimination on the Web:

unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
princeton.edu/perl/webwn

To discriminate is to make a distinction. That is, irrational social, racial, religious, sexual, ethnic and age-related discrimination of people.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

Are you saying that Allah is as impotent as Billy Bicep flexing his muscles at the beach, and that Q, the sanctimonious pup, is to fly in and save the day?

Isn't that what you believe?

But I wonder, if I could come up with enough food to feed them, wouldn't Allah simply bump up the numbers, challenging me further?

When you become God, you can make your own rules.

What next might he send to strengthen your faith in him? Famine, disease, pestulence, wars?

Yes isn't it always easy to find someone to blame?

Maybe the whole world is a mirage in which only you are real.

Oh wait, he already provides us with those.

I'm glad He finally got your attention.

 

[S.A.M.]

sam,

I thought you said muslims believed in evolution? Evolution encompasses the evolution of social systems and human psychology also. Part of this is the evolution of the "god" idea to explain the physical world in the absence of a better way to understand it. Yes? No? Maybe...?

Do you have a death wish? :bugeye:

Muslims believe in the evolution of all life from water; there are separate instances in the Quran in which the creation and recreation of man is mentioned. I don't know enough about this stuff and I refuse to comment on it.

That's all; its not a science textbook for God's sake!

And no there are no chapters on psychology either; besides do YOU believe evrything you read too? Up until a few years ago, homosexuality was a mental disease and and an expression of female sexual desire was classified as nymphomania. They're still going in circles between multiple personality and dissociative identity disorder.

Just know that what we know is based on what we already have found out; it does not mean its right or wrong, just that the extent of our previous knowledge determines the assumptions and hence the analysis we make of what we perceive.

 

[S.A.M.]

Q:

I'm tired of this circular argument; its pointless and never ending.

We've been debating the same topic around and around all over the forum (for what, 2-3 weeks?) and haven't found any meeting point.

So, you're welcome to believe what you like.

I doubt I could influence your thinking anyway.

Thanks for the ride.

 

[(Q)]

Q:

I'm tired of this circular argument; its pointless and never ending.

We've been debating the same topic around and around all over the forum (for what, 2-3 weeks?) and haven't found any meeting point.

So, you're welcome to believe what you like.

I doubt I could influence your thinking anyway.

Thanks for the ride.

Well, its clear you have no argument as you've degenerated this discussion into sarcasm and insults, which is par for the course with most theists here who run out of things to say, and who get upset when their sky daddies are criticized and ridiculed.

It would appear you do 'selective believing' and have designed your own brand of Islam to suit your needs. No big woop since all theists do pretty much the same thing.

It's seems relatively clear by your responses that you've been indoctrinated into your religion as opposed to you telling us it was largely your choice, especially since your family is Muslim and you grew up in a Muslim society.

Nonetheless, you certainly couldn't convince me that Allah exists and is the creator of all things who controls all human destinies when you can't even substantiate the contradictions of your beliefs or answer the hard questions.

 

[S.A.M.]

What part of "I'm tired of this" don't you get?

Well, its clear you have no argument as you've degenerated this discussion into sarcasm and insults, which is par for the course with most theists here who run out of things to say, and who get upset when their sky daddies are criticized and ridiculed.

Yes which is why I've debating you since 3 weeks; I'm obviously "easily upset" and "have run out of things to say"

It would appear you do 'selective believing' and have designed your own brand of Islam to suit your needs. No big woop since all theists do pretty much the same thing.

False perceptions----Biased research --->>false assumptions---> Wrong Analysis

It's seems relatively clear by your responses that you've been indoctrinated into your religion as opposed to you telling us it was largely your choice, especially since your family is Muslim and you grew up in a Muslim society.

1. Family is not all Muslim and is completely non-practicing (surprise!)

2. Society was as non-Muslim as you could get; I recall telling you before that I had no Muslim friends growing up, mostly Hindus and some Catholics.

Nonetheless, you certainly couldn't convince me that Allah exists and is the creator of all things who controls all human destinies .

Why would I even want to?

when you can't even substantiate the contradictions of your beliefs or answer the hard questions

Impressive baiting here! So "not obvious", wow!!!

What I don't get is this-

According to you:

1. my arguments are tedious
2. I'm baffling you ( trying to, rather) with BS
3. I'm irrational with suspect credibility
4. I'm living in denial about my religion
5. I'm same as all the theists
6. I have fishy credentials
7. I don't even read your posts

So why O Great Voice Of Reason, do you persist in this debate?

 

[(Q)]

What part of "I'm tired of this" don't you get?

No one is putting a gun to your head, are they?

False perceptions----Biased research --->>false assumptions---> Wrong Analysis

In other words, dead on.

Why would I even want to?

Because I'm an infidel and Islam is to be spread around the world?

So why O Great Voice Of Reason, do you persist in this debate?

Your response would show that it is YOU who persists, since it is YOU who declared mental bankruptcy.

 

[S.A.M.]

No one is putting a gun to your head, are they?

Never could resist a challenge.

In other words, dead on.

I'm surprised you have the guts to admit it!

Because I'm an infidel and Islam is to be spread around the world?

Well I'm not in the enrollment club, so I really don't care.

Your response would show that it is YOU who persists, since it is YOU who declared mental bankruptcy

Keep jumping, you'll eventually get somewhere (*starstruck with admiration*)

(doesn't anyone else on this forum provide you with as much entertainment?)

 

[S.A.M.]

This is ridiculous; I hate pissing contests.

Let's debate something instead

 

[Zephyr]

Let's debate something instead

"Should African countries waive patent rights on HIV drugs?"

...or is this the wrong subforum?