Greedy mother abandons children for God

Would you go to Hell for your children?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 44.1%
  • No

    Votes: 6 17.6%
  • I am unable/unwilling to answer the question

    Votes: 13 38.2%

  • Total voters
    34
DeepThought said:

But what would be the problem if you liked your cousin and ended up marrying her?

Um ... it's illegal?

Now, I realize you can make a rational argument that the law itself is a myth, but at that point you're pushing the bounds of functionality.

So we're back now to her being forced? She was an adult. She made her own decision

Huh? I was trying to figure out how I would end up banging my cousin. Because you asked about it.

By the way you've never properly explained what 'greed' has got to do with it

Oh, come on, dude. You're not really ....

For f@ck's sake, she chose her superstition of personal profit (e.g., salvation) over the benefit of her children.

Interesting that you have strong feelings on this matter.

I find it interesting that you would compare incest to a blood transfusion.

Or is it just anything justify banging your cousin?

Because when it comes down to it the only thing which stops us from having sexual relations with our nearest and dearest (still an important custom in Asia and Africa) is a prohibition from scientists - and one suspects the hand of capitalist interests in this as well.

No ... there's fewer in-laws if you marry your cousin. Worked for Darwin, but generally bucks the traditional and anthropological purposes of marriage.

As to having sex with cousins ... it would just remind everyone that you're too pathetic to get a life.
 
While I agree this is not what Jesus meant, I dispute the notion that these scriptures have nothing to do with the woman refusing a blood transfusion. I'm questioning the greed of the situation. She took up her cross, followed Jesus as she believed, straight into death. She certainly did not love her children more than she loved Him. And it's a fair consideration to wonder if she hated her children, having chosen her belief in eternal glory over her children's need of a mother.

You accuse the woman of greed because she chose loyalty to God ahead of her children. Are you suggesting that we should be loyal to other humans ahead of God and to do otherwise is 'greedy'?

If this woman believed that accepting the blood transfusion would cost her eternal life then she certainly did put her children ahead of herself. She refused the blood believing that God would resurrect her into a future paradise when she could spend eternity with her children. Or she could selfishly have ignored God's command, taken the blood, gone on living for a short time until she inevitably died, missed out on eternal life because of her disloyalty and her children would have lost their mother permanently... if what she believes is true that is.
 
Any time the supernatural (i.e. fantasy and delusion) are chosen over flesh and blood, then the one choosing the supernatural can be said to be completely and utterly batshit.

But, assuming that we accept that she truly believed that her "eternal soul" (whatever that is) was at stake, she was, indeed, greedy since she chose something that has no evidence to support over raising her own children and ensuring their survival. She was a greedy bitch.
 
For f@ck's sake, she chose her superstition of personal profit (e.g., salvation) over the benefit of her children.

How do you know it in fact is superstition?

I'm not saying that I agree with what she did. However, I do not exclude the possibility that the Calvinist doctrine is true - and that thus, there could be individuals who are God's chosen people, and the non-chosen have no way of knowing.
 
Any time the supernatural (i.e. fantasy and delusion) are chosen over flesh and blood, then the one choosing the supernatural can be said to be completely and utterly batshit.

But, assuming that we accept that she truly believed that her "eternal soul" (whatever that is) was at stake, she was, indeed, greedy since she chose something that has no evidence to support over raising her own children and ensuring their survival. She was a greedy bitch.

Are you omniscient?
 
Laser Eyes said:

her children would have lost their mother permanently

So ... Heaven's just like here, then? The presence of God doesn't change anything?

What the hell's the point?

Your statement contradicts what Lutherans, Catholics, and others taught me. The idea that one could get to Heaven and be sad is ... just a bit strange. It seems a convenient, earthly argument.

Additionally:

Or she could selfishly have ignored God's command, taken the blood, gone on living for a short time until she inevitably died, missed out on eternal life because of her disloyalty and her children would have lost their mother permanently... if what she believes is true that is.

I'd risk Hell for my daughter.

She wouldn't. Life goes on.

Oh, right. Whoops. My bad.
 
Greenberg said:

How do you know it in fact is superstition?

I don't. How do I know you exist? I don't. How do I know that a baseball player who hops over the baselines—even the invisible ones—as he takes the field is just being superstitious? I don't. It might make all the difference in the world. The Mariners might have won 116 games a few years ago and failed to make the World Series because someone stepped on a baseline.

The point at which I concede that the superstition cannot be shown to be a superstition is the level at which existence itself can be argued to be an illusion.
 
The point at which I concede that the superstition cannot be shown to be a superstition is the level at which existence itself can be argued to be an illusion.

You know that this is a position that allows for anything-goes, don't you? It is amoral and allows for you to scorn or praise anything.
 
(Insert title here)

Greenberg said:

You know that this is a position that allows for anything-goes, don't you? It is amoral and allows for you to scorn or praise anything.

Not necessarily.

If we take a Cartesian approach, the only thing I can be sure of is that I am observing and experiencing this reality. Whether or not it is reality is an unprovable proposition. However, this assertion of reality seems to be the only one going, and I might as well function within it. As far as I can tell, there is a rational basis for morality, it's just difficult to identify sometimes because humanity tends to invent things like gods to explain morality because it's easier that way.

To start simply, why is it wrong to kill another human being in cold blood?

Or how is it that we all should be equal before the law?

These aren't arbitrary assertions. Once we work past arbitrary assertions like being God's chosen people, or a genetic mutation resulting in a pigment deficiency makes one person inherently superior to another, that men should run society because they have penises ... do you realize that men are nearly extraneous? (And by our own hand, at that.)

We settle on a certain sense of equality because it is all we have left. Equality isn't some high-minded declaration, but all that remains once we strip away the pretty decorations. Pharaohs may have been able to raise mountains in the desert, but humans, striving toward equality, can throw a hunk of metal into nowhere and hit another planet. (Beat that, Amenhotep!)

We refuse dictators because we see the folly of their ambition; if there was something the species should gain by dedicating itself to one leader, we would prosper by that route.

Much of morality can be determined that way. I think certain Biblical rules about everything from sodomy to tattoos to taking a sh@t actually make sense ... if we're wandering around for forty years in the middle of nowhere, unsure if we're ever getting out of this mess.

So yes, as this topic considers, I understand why God says we should not consume blood. I don't like blood in my bacon, and yes, I'm aware of a certain irony in that phrase. To the other, I like steaks rare and dripping red. But ask a hunter, a farmer, anyone who kills animals for food: it's best to drain the blood; the meat is just better that way. There are all sorts of reasons that science could explain, but the Hebrews didn't have that, so it comes down to what God says.

But in the case of blood transfusions, are we looking at a repeat of Eden? Where God puts a huge gift in front of us and tells us we can't have it? If God didn't want us taking blood transfusions, God could easily have made it so that they didn't work. Of course, after the debacle at Eden, we can only wonder at God's notion of planning.

We have, in many ways, more accurate means of measuring morality, but most people—even some atheists—seem to accept that without God, morality is arbitrary, or even false. It is easier to assert that morality is a baseless construct than it is to seek and identify a rational basis.

And as long as this is the life we're stuck with, as long as this is the operating reality, I don't see why we shouldn't work within it, determine its ways, and understand its nature as best we can.

Thus, while there does, in fact, come a point at which I can no longer identify Ms. Gough's superstition as superstition, that point is so removed from any practical boundaries for the human experience as to be dysfunctional.

The world around me may be absurd, but it is, in the end, the world around me.
 
Your statement contradicts what Lutherans, Catholics, and others taught me.
Most of what the mainstream so-called Christian churches teach is not what the Bible says.

The idea that one could get to Heaven and be sad is ... just a bit strange. It seems a convenient, earthly argument.
As I said one doesn't go to heaven when one dies. When we die we simply cease to exist. There is no immortal soul that goes on living after death.
 
For f@ck's sake, she chose her superstition of personal profit (e.g., salvation) over the benefit of her children.


What benefit for the children is there, from your point of view, in Ms Gough - a committed Jehovah Witness - raising her children?

Throughout this debate Tiassa you have used capitalist terminology to describe Ms Gough's relationship with God. How can you compare Ms Gough's 'prize' - which must remain invisible until she receives it - with material wealth? Is the mythical world to come now the same as the wealth of this world? If so, can I set up a tab with my local grocers to be paid in full upon his death?

The sin of greed or covetousness begins because we covet what we see every day. Since you and I would both accept there is no sensory evidence for the existence of Heaven we cannot even begin to covet it. We could covet, however, the books and paraphernalia of religion which tell us that Heaven is a reality and encourage belief in it but the material weight of that reality must remain zero until we can physically experience it ourselves. Longing for the immaterial cannot be considered an act of greed.

So come on man... it wasn't greed.

I'd risk Hell for my daughter.


Great.

But perhaps for you the more testing question is: by choosing life are you allowing your daughter to go to Hell?
 
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Tiassa,


Not necessarily.
...
The world around me may be absurd, but it is, in the end, the world around me.

I've read your post, the one above and others. I am not going to respond directly to that, though.

What I'd like to say is that your criticisms of Christianity often resonate with me. It is something I used to engage in a lot. Yet over time, I realized that wasn't helping. Trying to figure out an objective criticism of Christianity, or trying to base my criticism on my own morality never worked out. There were way too many loopholes, too many assumptions taken for granted, too much inconsistency, too much of compromising my integrity. In the end, I was only left exhausted and angry. I was swallowing the poison - but I was expecting others to die. Or at least feel an uncomfortable pinch.

Eventually, I begun to focus on my own experiences, started to seek to work out my own thoughts and feelings. Without seeking to make objective claims about Christianity and Christians. No more "She's a bad person!" or "God must be evil for letting my uncle do that!"
It has been a long and often difficult path - but it is one worth the effort.

The message I am trying to get across is that some ways of dealing with a painful past or a painful present just don't have good results, and such ways are best abandoned.
I'll ask you plainly: Dealing with these issues regarding Christianity the way you do - does it help you and your loved ones? Are there any long-term benefits for you and for them if you deal with those issues the way you have so far?
 
Laser Eyes said:

As I said one doesn't go to heaven when one dies. When we die we simply cease to exist. There is no immortal soul that goes on living after death.

:wallbang:

Great.

Fine.

I do not protest.

However, the decision we are considering presumes that there is an immortal soul that does eventually find judgment, and either goes on to Heaven or else burns forever or is annihilated, or any number of variations on condemnation, punishment, and Hell. Pick one. I don't care which. But the fact you assert, and which I am more than simply willing to agree with, is irrelevant to the ideas and decision we are considering.

Additionally, while your point about the teachings of the so-called mainstream Christian churches is a fine and valid assertion, I think there's something askew about your perspective on this one that is related to your insistence about the lack of an immortal soul. I can't pin it down, though, but it shows in your suggestion of the children missing eternity with their mother. While I appreciate your consideration within the theistic boundaries demanded by Ms. Gough's faith, the basis of that particular point still escapes me.

• • •​

DeepThought said:

But perhaps for you the more testing question is: by choosing life are you allowing your daughter to go to Hell?

Er ... um ... huh? Something is getting lost in translation. Could you possibly illustrate the question in some way? Really, I don't know where to begin because the question, while it makes sense inasmuch as I understand the definitions of the words, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in terms of the theology involved.

What am I missing?

As to the paragraphs I have not addressed ... I'll give them some thought while I'm on the road, and hopefully I'll have a chance to get back to you later today.

• • •​

Greenberg said:

I'll ask you plainly: Dealing with these issues regarding Christianity the way you do - does it help you and your loved ones? Are there any long-term benefits for you and for them if you deal with those issues the way you have so far?

Let's put it this way. My stance on Pascal's Wager is that God can go screw. As long as I'm stuck in this mortal coil, my neighbors in this life are my primary concern. If they intend to waste their time and ours with these strange assertions of mystery and glory, they ought to at least make some effort to do it right. Now, while I can't say for sure what right is in this case, there are some things that simply strike me as wrong. Thematically, Ms. Gough's decision defies my understanding of Christianity. Acting to protect your own soul at the expense of others is not what Jesus meant. Says me. And that's the central question. I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing much of a theological argument to explain how.

The broader application, of course, is that we all have to share this planet, and as we endure Christian persecution in the Western world, I don't think it's a whole lot to ask that these folks put some genuine effort into it. And I don't think I'm the only person in the world who has noticed this strange phenomenon of Christians exploiting their faith to justify behavior that is antithetical to the doctrine they claim as their own.

Now take my daughter for instance. She spends time every other week with her mother's parents. Those folks are religious nuts. Absolutely stark bonkers. And what's disappointing to me is that they lie about their faith. They literally believe that by providing her nothing but proselytizing books to read and proselytizing television that sings theologically-inaccurate propaganda songs that they're not preaching or indoctrinating. If it was just the fact that whenever I talk to the grandfather about anything, I have to watch for when he changes the subject in order to talk about how smart and faithful he is, that would be fine. I'm used to that kind of crap. But these are people whose faith is so weak that the one thing they can't tolerate is an honest, free-will decision regarding faith in God. The only free-will they will accept comes once they've stacked the deck with propaganda and conditioning that, by some measure, does not equal preaching, indoctrination, evangelizing, proselytizing, teaching religion, &c., ad nauseam.

So yes, I do get some value out of dealing with this theology. It's just not the kind that most Christians would hope for. Christians have gone out of their way to declare themselves adversaries in the past, and it seems well enough to learn how to deal with these people who are, ultimately, dangerous to the human species.
 
Are you omniscient?

That's the great thing about being intelligent and educated. One need not be "omniscient" (a quality that obviously can't exist) in order to have an informed opinion or be able to reasonably make inferences about an event. The amount of information one needs to make an informed and educated inference about this event is minimal compared with "omniscience."

How do you know it in fact is superstition?

Superstitions are irrational beliefs which usually rise from ignorance or fear. This case is a prime example of superstition since her beliefs are clearly irrational and clearly based on both ignorance and fear.
 
But, assuming that we accept that she truly believed that her "eternal soul" (whatever that is) was at stake, she was, indeed, greedy since she chose something that has no evidence to support over raising her own children and ensuring their survival. She was a greedy bitch.

How can you possibly suggest there is no evidence. Leave your details and I'll have someone call on you to explain what is said in the Bible.

What's more, the Bible says God exists, in fact there may be 3, and as the Bible is God's revealed word it cannot be wrong, ergo God exists.
 
How do you know it in fact is superstition?

I'm not saying that I agree with what she did. However, I do not exclude the possibility that the Calvinist doctrine is true - and that thus, there could be individuals who are God's chosen people, and the non-chosen have no way of knowing.

What an interesting point of view. God created us all, then he chose a few but we cannot know that we are non-chosen if we are non-chosen, suggesting that if we are chosen we know we are chosen and that anyone who disagrees with us is non-chosen. But the non-chosen, not realising they are non-chosen may believe they are chosen, which is proof that they are chosen and that we, the chosen, are non-chosen who have no way of knowing we are non-chosen.
 
So yes, I do get some value out of dealing with this theology. It's just not the kind that most Christians would hope for. Christians have gone out of their way to declare themselves adversaries in the past, and it seems well enough to learn how to deal with these people who are, ultimately, dangerous to the human species.

I agree that they and their doctrines are dangerous.

I also think that battling with them the way you do isn't very efficient. In fact, all too often it has just the opposite effect of what is intended: it only strengthens their convictions.

Entering into discussion with Christians and their doctrine automatically implies that you think it is relevant enough to do so.

You are giving the Christian doctrine value by fighting it.
The conviction of Christians grows stronger because you are fighting it. The more they are fought, the more they take it as proof that they are right.
 
I'd risk Hell for my daughter

Originally Posted by DeepThought
But perhaps for you the more testing question is: by choosing life are you allowing your daughter to go to Hell?


From your current perspective your statement means that risking Hell for your daughter doesn't involve any physical sacrifice on your part nor any threat to your daughter. You can live on quite comfortably the way your doing until death

From a broader perspective your opinions will heavily influence your daughter. Children tend to adopt the beliefs of their parents so if your daughter adopts yours - and you turn out to be wrong - what will be the consequences for her?

Are you willing to admit that your position is not infallible? If you are will you communicate this to your daughter? Furthermore, is it possible that any form of religion is better than no religion at all?

Tiassa said:
we endure Christian persecution in the Western world

After reading your response to Greenberg I think you were right earlier concerning the culture clash.

Your opinions on life are not completely alien to me, but the above statement is. I live in the U.K. where I feel more persecuted by atheists. Dawkins carries on like some pontificating Bishop over here encouraging more corrosive individualism when what our country needs is something which will bring people together and create safe communities and social responsibility. O.K... blah, blah, blah.... it's not relevant to the discussion. We may actually need more religion (err...but not Christianity ironically).
 
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That's the great thing about being intelligent and educated. One need not be "omniscient" (a quality that obviously can't exist) in order to have an informed opinion or be able to reasonably make inferences about an event. The amount of information one needs to make an informed and educated inference about this event is minimal compared with "omniscience."



Superstitions are irrational beliefs which usually rise from ignorance or fear. This case is a prime example of superstition since her beliefs are clearly irrational and clearly based on both ignorance and fear.

For a scientist, you have the confidence of a fanatic religionist.
 
I'm confident in what can be demonstrated or exemplified. I stand by my statements because they are accurate. Moreover, you've done nothing to dispel their accuracy with your posts that say nothing more substantive than, "oh yeah?"
 
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