First TV Interview: The Pregnant Man

[shichimenshyo]

I don't agree with surgery used to alter appearance (unless, of course, it's a birth defect/accident-related issues).

What about a mental defect or a hormone imbalance that leaves a man with the hormone levels the same as a women, why should he not be able to change to feel comfortable in his own body?

 

[shorty_37]

Shi could you date someone that you knew was once a man?

 

[shichimenshyo]

Shi could you date someone that you knew was once a man?

No, but thats a perSonal choice, just like the personal choice they made to become a women.

 

[Tiassa]

(chortle!)

Maybe they should ask the countless generations of people who haven't had surgical gender changes? If we've come this far in civilization without any complaints about the inability to change one's gender, then there's no reason to start now.

• • •​

This transgender craze is a recent phenomenon, for the most part - it is the aftereffect of recent socio-political sexual revolutions.

Gender reassignment surgery might well be a recent phenomenon, but gender diversity is ancient, and even mystical.

The plump, elephant-headed Hindu deity Ganesha is likewise associated with the threshold and with the blurring of gender distinctions. As the loyal son of the goddess Parvati, Ganesha guards her bedchamber. In this capacity, he is described as a "protean, liminal character" who "stand on the threshold between the profane world ... and the sacred territory," who "protect the purity of the inner shrine," and who "provides access to the other gods and goddesses." Ganesha's head is that of a female elephant, while his torso is that of a human male. Even Ganesha's male torso is, however, perceived as androgynous; his softness, plumpness, and breasts are viewed as feminine. Moreover, both his "perpetually flaccid trunk" and his role as bringer of rain indicate an association with eunuchs, considered liminal figures in the Hindu cosmos. Ganesha is also associated with homoeroticism, by way of both the upanayana ritual, which may include intimate relations between master and disciple, and his patronage of the muladhara chakra. This chakra signifies not only the threshold leading to the awakening of the kundalini, but also the practice of cultic homoeroticism.

(Conner)

Something more biblical:

Deuteronomy 23:19 (Eng: 18) and its single reference present a tantalizing glimpse of a liminal figure in ancient Israelite society. It has not, perhaps, featured in contemporary discussion of homosexuality as much as the verses in Leviticus. Nonetheless, it is a vital witness to the existence of male prostitution. Female prostitution, however abhorred, is referred to often enough in the Hebrew Bible. While surrounding cultures provided religious outlets for those males whose sexuality was compromised for psychological or physical reasons, Israel was unaccommodating and unforgiving. Such outcasts could not belong to YHWH's chosen people: no better than common prostitutes, using their "tails" in like manner, they could bring no offering into YHWH's holy presence. Though the writers of the Hebrew Bible almost overlooked their existence, it is clear that Israel in this as in other matters was just "like the nations" ....

.... Ironically, the intuitive translation, "male homosexual prostitute," with a pedigree going back as far as the King James Version, "sodomite," is borne out by more recent studies of the evidence. In ancient Israel, as elsewhere in the ancient Near East, the passive role in homosexual intercourse disrupted traditional and socially immutable gender roles. The freeborn male who adopted it voluntarily deserved contempt and possibly death; the passive male prostitute plying his sexually liminal trade, was dubbed "dog" as befitting his fawning passivity and incorrigible perversity. He did not belong among the inner circle of the chosen people and his offering, bought with the earnings of his "loathsome trade," was not allowed to sully YHWH's presence.

(Burns)

It seems that "God" has long been fashioning homosexuals among humans. Indeed, no society is exempt:

They are known as "bacha bereesh", boys without beards, teenage boys who dress up as girls and dance for male patrons at parties in northern Afghanistan.

It's an age old practice that has led to some of the boy dancers being turned into sex slaves by wealthy and powerful patrons, often former warlords, who dress the boys up as girls, shower them with gifts and keep them as "mistresses" ....

.... In a society where the sexes are strictly segregated, it is common for men to dance for other men at weddings in Afghanistan.

But in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further with competitions for their dancing boys ....

.... Ahmad Jawad, aged 17, has been with a wealthy landowner for the past two years.

"I am used to it. I love my lord. I love to dance and act like a woman and play with my owner," he said.

Asked what he would do when he got older, he said: "Once I grow up, I will be an owner and I will have my own boys."

(Reuters)

And if we stop to think about eunuchs, we might say that gender reassignment surgery is ancient, and only recently become more refined. Indeed, according to Burns, Middle Assyrian law prescribed that, "If a man has sex with his comrade ... [the accusers] shall have sex with him and turn him into a eunuch."

Quite clearly, gender-bending has a long history in society. I wonder if the ancients blamed it on modernity?
____________________

Notes:

Conner, Randy P.L. "Men-Women, Gatekeepers, and Fairy Mounds." Parabola, Spring 2000.

Burns, John Barclay. "Devotee or Deviate: The 'Dog' (keleb) in Ancient Israel as a Symbol of Male Passivity and Perversion". Journal of Religion & Society. 2000. http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2000/2000-6.html

Reuters. "Afghan boy dancers sexually abused by former warlords". November 18, 2007. http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSISL1848920071119

 

[S.A.M.]

Kadark:

You should educate yourself on the history of human sexuality.

You sound like you just came out of a cave.

I've already given you two earlier references

Desiring Arabs by Joseph A. Massad

Before Homosexuality in the Arab-Islamic World, 1500-1800

Here is one more; this is a rather frank appraisal of Eastern sexuality, so I should probably warn you about mature content.

EDWARDES, ALLEN, THE JEWEL IN THE LOTUS. A historical survey of the sexual culture of the East.
London, Tandem Books, 1965. 2nd edition 272 pages

 

[Kadark]

You should educate yourself on the history of human sexuality.

You sound like you just came out of a cave.

And you sound like a clueless bitch. Your point?

I've already given you two earlier references

And I've already told you I'm not interested in reading them. Stop heckling me.

Here is one more; this is a rather frank appraisal of Eastern sexuality, so I should probably warn you about mature content.

As soon as I can draw the connection from sexuality in the East to modern day gender changes, I will consider reading the book. I'm not discussing sexuality - I'm discussing physically changing one's given gender. Start reading what I say.

 

[S.A.M.]

Then stop saying stuff like:

Maybe they should ask the countless generations of people who haven't had surgical gender changes? If we've come this far in civilization without any complaints about the inability to change one's gender, then there's no reason to start now.

 

[Kadark]

Then stop saying stuff like:

What does that have to do with anything? People in the past were never able to change their genders surgically like they are today. That's a known fact.

 

[S.A.M.]

What does that have to do with anything? People in the past were never able to change their genders surgically like they are today. That's a known fact.

The women could not, but eunuchs are part and parcel of Eastern history

And today, the homosexuals in Iran undergo transgender operations since homosexuality is not permitted by transgender operations are.

 

[Kadark]

The women could not, but eunuchs are part and parcel of Eastern history

Yeah, and I'm sure plenty of those same tribes sacrificed their kindred to the gods in hopes of a fruitful harvest. Doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Ancient, backward cultures don't (pardon, "shouldn't") have any influence on the decisions we make today.

And today, the homosexuals in Iran undergo transgender operations since homosexuality is not permitted by transgender operations are.

o rly/?

How many of these "homosexuals" undergo transgender operations? Where is the evidence? Who said Iran's Republic somehow represented my individuality and outlooks?

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, and I'm sure plenty of those same tribes sacrificed their kindred to the gods in hopes of a fruitful harvest. Doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Ancient, backward cultures don't (pardon, "shouldn't") have any influence on the decisions we make today.

We're talking Ottomans and Mughals here.

o rly/?

How many of these "homosexuals" undergo transgender operations? Where is the evidence? Who said Iran's Republic somehow represented my individuality and outlooks?

Look it up, its all over the net.

 

[Kadark]

We're talking Ottomans and Mughals here.

The Ottomans encompassed a wide assortment of cultures. A few of them, unfortunately, never truly wanted to progress. Such idiots need to be reeducated, or simply left to devour one another. It's high time they got with the system - the system that disallows regular humans from becoming transgender freaks.

Look it up, its all over the net.

Hey, look, you can roll your eyes all you want, but at the end of the day, it's up to you to substantiate the claims you make. Of course, that still doesn't answer my question.

You're seriously telling me that you agree people should be able to surgically change their state of nature? We're living in scary times.

 

[S.A.M.]

The Ottomans encompassed a wide assortment of cultures. A few of them, unfortunately, never truly wanted to progress. Such idiots need to be reeducated, or simply left to devour one another. It's high time they got with the system - the system that disallows regular humans from becoming transgender freaks.

Where is this "system" defined?

Hey, look, you can roll your eyes all you want, but at the end of the day, it's up to you to substantiate the claims you make. Of course, that still doesn't answer my question.

You're seriously telling me that you agree people should be able to surgically change their state of nature? We're living in scary times.

Sure, I'm only glad I don't have to make such difficult choices to be happy. But I hate to think of a society where such a choice would be denied me by ill-informed neanderthals (though, it appears the neanderthals were more broad minded about such things)

 

[Kadark]

Where is this "system" defined?

The same system that has improved our status from lawless, unethical apes to civilized men.

Sure, I'm only glad I don't have to make such difficult choices to be happy. But I hate to think of a society where such a choice would be denied me by ill-informed neanderthals (though, it appears the neanderthals were more broad minded about such things)

The truly ill-informed neanderthals are the weak, expendable pieces of trash who cannot accept their God-given gender. They are the ones who ignore the plight of others, and obsessively focus on a natural component of their perfectly healthy and functional self. These are greedy, selfish, unstable, and dysfunctional people - they should be cleansed from society. Changing their gender will never satisfy them. Adding or removing genitals simply complicates the problem. It's truly sad that you show such approval to transgender operations, but it is possible that ye love a thing which is bad for you, and dislike a thing which is good for you.

 

[S.A.M.]

The same system that has improved our status from lawless, unethical apes to civilized men.



The truly ill-informed neanderthals are the weak, expendable pieces of trash who cannot accept their God-given gender. They are the ones who ignore the plight of others, and obsessively focus on a natural component of their perfectly healthy and functional self. These are greedy, selfish, unstable, and dysfunctional people - they should be cleansed from society. Changing their gender will never satisfy them. Adding or removing genitals simply complicates the problem. It's truly sad that you show such approval to transgender operations, but it is possible that ye love a thing which is bad for you, and dislike a thing which is good for you.

I'll have to revise my notions about Turkish progressiveness.

Clearly the Ottoman outlook is a thing of the past.

 

[Kadark]

I'll have to revise my notions about Turkish progressiveness.

Clearly the Ottoman outlook is a thing of the past.

Perhaps you should first look at the "progressiveness" of your jungle countrymen. There isn't much that separates the average person in your snake hole from wild animals.

 

[idiot0boy]

I heard he started life a women and had a had a sex change. But this story did start on the 1st of April!

 

[Tiassa]

Notes for Kadark

How many of these "homosexuals" undergo transgender operations? Where is the evidence?

I find a conflict between your advice to S.A.M. that you're not interested in reading the references she provides and the demand that she provide references for what can be easily found via a search engine. In other words, when you're interested in looking it up, you can. For instance, here are some links you probably won't want to read, found through Google with the search phrase Iran transgender operation:

(1) Harrison, Frances. "Iran's sex-change operations". BBC News. January 5, 2005. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4115535.stm

(2) Mangez, Caroline. "Iran's Transsexual Revolution". (The Independent) Truthout.org. November 13, 2005. http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/35/15513

(3) Nasseri, Ladane. "Iran Sex Changes Get Mullahs' Money as Regime Persecutes Gays". Bloomberg. Updated February 5, 2008. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aKyg7EZs.8hA​

Dr Mirjalali says in Europe a surgeon would do about 40 sex change operations in a decade. He's done 320 in the last 12 years in Iran.

(Harrsion)

• • •​

"I know because I've experienced both worlds: as a man in Iran I have more freedom and choice than as a woman," muses 30 year-old estate agent Milad Kajouhinejad, 30, loosening his tie and unbuttoning his shirt to reveal a hirsute chest. It gives him pleasure, this manly gesture, just as it gives him pleasure to carry an attaché case and sport the full beard of a practising Muslim. Until three years ago, he could do none of these things. "I never used to go to the mosque, either," he adds. "I did not want to have to wear a chador. Now I can pray in boxer shorts if I feel like it, and I never miss prayers," he says.

Milad gives thanks to Allah five times a day and, while doing so, always offers a special prayer to the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, "without whom," he says, "every transexual would have had to leave Iran. He was the first to issue a fatwa authorising a man or woman to change their sex."

More than 15 years after Khomeini's death, the cleric's unlikely religious judgement means that Iran now has one of the world's largest populations of transexuals, and the fatwa itself has become the stuff of legend. "A theology student told me that he delivered his verdict after he was contacted by a couple who no longer experienced any physical pleasure. He advised them to change sex and, once the woman had become a man and the man a woman, then to remarry," says Mahnaz Javaheri, 42, the mother of Athena, a 20-year-old who, as she puts it, "needed to be freed of her man's body." A devout Muslim, Mahnaz says that if the three imams she consulted hadn't given their permission, she would never have let her son Hadi become Athena, "even if it meant him committing suicide. These three great ayatollahs all said that he should have the operation as soon as possible."

(Mangez)

• • •​

In Iran, where men and women are segregated, and homosexuality is punishable by death, the government plans to spend 6 billion rials ($647,000) this year to help pay for sex- change operations. The policies aren't as contradictory as they seem, because in traditional societies there is more pressure to conform to standard gender roles, says Mahdis Kamkar, a Tehran psychologist who works with transsexuals.

(Nasseri)

And nobody said Iran somehow represents your individuality and outlook. But that's the point: your outlook is yours and yours alone. You cannot blame your ignorance and hatred on anything or anyone but yourself. Not religion, not history, not anything but your own corruption.

 

[shorty_37]

You're seriously telling me that you agree people should be able to surgically change their state of nature? We're living in scary times.

You can say that again!!! I don't think perfectly healthy ppl should be able to go in and change their gender. I tell you, everyone that i have talked to about this particular pregnant man, also thinks he is a FREAK!

Just because there might be a few here on this forum who think it is perfectly ok (which I still can't beleive) I would have to say the majority of ppl out there do no think this is perfectly ok and will not accept it.

 

[Michael]

How is this possible?

Obviously he's a woman living his life as a man.