Duty to Convert

[P. M. Thorne]

FROM JCARL: “Are we not all in danger of dying? Then that "if" statement stands for all of us. We are all given a pardon from death by Christ's death on the cross. That is our door: it is up to us to go through that door.”

In danger of dying? Dying is no bad thing; it is part of living. I do not concern myself too much with the life hereafter, but endeavor to do what I need to do and to know what I need to know now. No one has died and come back, so no one really knows what happens when we leave this world.

Every church has a doctrine, and an individual sort of interpretation of the scriptures, and these are all “correct,” of course. Here is what I think: If we would attend more to encouraging ourselves and others to kindness and a true heart-felt love for mankind, and nature and all the wonderful things that God has left in the care of men, we would more fulfill His purpose. All that He asks of us is for our benefit, and why? When one serves himself well, he is better prepared to be of use in general, and is more inclined toward peace. You see, I believe that there is now peace on this earth, but this peace has simply not found its way into enough hearts as yet!
What I do I do because of the love in my heart, not for fear of eternity, nor for brownie buttons, if you get what I mean.

As for Christ being our only door, I agree that He came to show us the way.

JCARL WROTE: Um...not to my knowledge. This sounds Purgatoriesque, and I see no evidence of Purgatory in the Bible. So the answer is no.

I suggest that you check with your Elders on this. Remember “He (Christ) also descended into the lower parts of the earth.” See Eph. 4:8 & 9 Also check, Isa. 44:23; Deut. 32:22; Psa. 16:10, 86:13. Your Elders will be better able to discuss this with you, because I cannot be sure, but it is the usual belief that hell had an upper (Lazareth) and a lower (rich man)-type thing. It matters not to me, because it is rather ambiguous, but at least you are advised that this is a concept of many. So, good luck.

JCARL: Yes, so the two are really only different in length of time; Hell lasts until the Great White Throne Judgement. There Books of Life are opened, their[the unsaved] names are not found, and then they are cast into the Lake of FIre, which then continues on forever.

Yes, that is written in Revelation, as are many things that many people attempt to interpret. Some believe that the book of Revelation was literally to the seven churches, which makes sense, right? Some believe the book was written all at one time; some say there were two different writings, and a few scholars say three writings. I have attended four or so classes in study of the book, listened to videos, teachers on site, viewed diagrams, flow charts, read books, and all I can do is smile, because no one knows anything, and if they think they do, they fool themselves. I am not so sure about that book, and do not trust anyone who is "sure."

JCARL: Yes, I believe that with all my heart. Go back to Heb. 2:2-3:"...and every transgression and disobedience given a just reward, how then shall we escape..." Christ is our only ticket out of Hell and into Heaven; if we burn it, throw it away or simply leave it at home, how then shall we get past Hell? Why would God do such a thing? That asking the wrong question. Let's turn that question around and ask,"Why would we do such a thing as reject so magnificant a salvation?"

My my! I would hate to think of Jesus Christ as a “ticket” out of anywhere…to anywhere. What a narrow point of view. I think I have now word here with which to respond appropriately. Do you know how that sounds?

JCARL: This is religion, not necessarily faith; there's no doubt in my mind that people who have done this have gone to Hell because they didn't accept it in their hearts.

Accept “it.” By “it” do you mean “the plan of salvation?” You are doubtless a very nice and sincere young person, but you make Christianity sound like a religion based upon superstition and fear. Yes, I think that sums it up, -superstition and fear.

JCARL: I'll bring you back to the Heb. 2. How is anybody going to escape if they don't take advantage of the window they're given? Good works, like those you mentioned, don't save you. It is a gift.

That is not what it says. I believe it says, “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation,” or very close to that. The word salvation hold no complex applications in this verse, but simply means deliverance or rescue.

JCARL: There are so many things I can't understand in this world. I don't fully understand how I'm able to talk with you like this. But I'm not about to let my ignorance in the mechanics of it keep me from using it.

You are leaving yourself wide open, my friend! May I say that you will have much company if you plan not to let ignorance stop you.
(That was not nice, was it?) Do not leave yourself open like that. It might be wiser to say something like: “I know enough to keep me busy,” or, “I can share what I do know.”

Do you have any idea how much hurt the churches have dumped on their wounded? Have you been in this world long enough to know what it is like to feel isolated, confused, alone, with no one to cry to except God? Well, many have, and then for you, and others, to come tell them they are going to hell falls so short of Christ’s teaching, it grieves my Spirit.

I have talked with a lot of good folks, who have been “doomed to hell” and I can tell you that many of them were beautiful people who were simply going through a time of confusion. There is a lot of hurt in this world and telling people they are going to Hell is not the answer. Before you tell anyone that God loves them, tell them you love them. Before you tell anyone he is going to hell, tell them the better way that Jesus taught. There is no magic in knowing God, and you do not own him exclusively!


JCARE: If you had a ticket to a ball game and you left it home, do you think you would get in that stadium?

That is one of the worst analogies I have ever heard.

JCARL: No; what a sick and sadistic person I would be!! What I feel good about is that I have been saved from Hell and now have the privilege of spending eternity with Christ. The reason I am willing to tell others like yourself is that the same salvation is available to you too. If you, or me or anyone else on the planet, died without accepting Christ as one's Savior and replacement, then you would go to Hell. The reason I am telling you is that it doesn't have to be this way for you.

Okay, I get your meaning, but let me bring something to your attention, if I may. You are approaching as though I and others live in the dark ages, have never heard of Christ, know nothing about the scriptures, and are all in a line headed for Hell.

In the first place, you are very young, and need to learn a few things yourself. When I was fifteen a lot of people wanted me to travel, evangelistic style and preach in churches. I declined. Why did I decline. Well, one reason was that I wanted to complete Bible School, but the main reason, and one that I gave, was that I considered myself too young and inexperienced, with all the complexities of life, to tell others how to live. How did I know this? I knew it because I had not spent my primary years in church. I had spent them in a big scary world, where I fell in love with nature and learned of God's grace.

Love cannot be summoned by command, rather if we are not loving, it should tell us that we are lacking, and if we are loving, then the scripture will be encouraging insomuch as we are fulfilling the message to us.

Methinks you have it backward. Remember, the law was a mirror to show us that we were flawed, not to make us flawed, or to redeem us. The scriptures do tell us things that we ought to do and be, but these things must be in our hearts, or they fall on vacant ground, so to speak. I do not need to read anything to know that it is better to love than to hate. Paul said: “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse, because when they knew God. they glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful.” In reference to this verse, a wise man said, “These words clearly show that everyone can by the light of nature clearly understand the goodness and the eternal divinity of God, and can thence know and deduce what they should seek for and what avoid; wherefore the Apostle says that they are without excuse, and cannot plead ignorance, as they certainly might if it were a question of supernatural light and incarnation,” etc.

Each denomination seems to hold the idea that they and they alone know how to know God; in fact, many seem to think that to know God, one must first know them and be instructed in the “right” way to approach God, be redeemed by God, and to live in the light of his presence. Nonsense!

JCARL: 1 Cor. 4:13-14: "Each one's[the saved] work will become clear, for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, to see of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, then he will receive a reward."
That sums it up quite nicely I think. What these rewards are I don't know, but suffice it to say that God will give each work a,"...a just reward."

You seem more than taken up with scriptures to do with judgment, rewards and punishment. Further, you scoop everything right off the surface, so it seems. Only time and experience can cure that.

JCARL: Well...hating those things, while simultaneously loving the person, would help him in showing him his error and that in Christ there is hope, for in Him all things are made new(2 Cor. 5:17) How it would serve me is inconsequential. It doesn't matter, b/c that shouldn't be my motive for doing something good.

Where is the love? What love? You call this love? Think about it. “You are going to hell unless you are like me.” That is what you call love. Jesus did not meet the fallen woman with, “You are going to hell.” If fact, there is no record of her asking for forgiveness before he forgave her, if my memory serves me correctly.

If I sound unkind, I do not mean to, but someone needs to tell you what a hurting world this is and how much it needs to be loved. The waters and the air cry for love. Nature cries for love. Man cries for love, and Christians, who are supposed to be the children of the living God, cry for converts. They have it all figured out. Be kind to yourself and search your heart for real love. Not the kind that looks to correct, but the covering kind. Remember that verse, (wherever it is), that love covers a multitude of sins. Get in the covering business, if you want to be like Jesus.

You are exceptional for being so young, and may just be a great teacher some day, but you need to grow in love, and no better time to know it. I know you mean well, and thank you for responding. I will always answer. I apologize for taking so long.

PMT

 

[Hevene]

Need does not exist, for everything is me, I am everything. When there is no lacking, need cannot exist, but an illusion in order for us to experience no needs at all. Everything is happening perfectly the way it is, why feel the need to change something that is perfect already?

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Total nonsense. Trying doing without food and water; be in isolation for awhile; never exercise. PMT

 

[Hevene]

I understand why you are saying that, but I still stick to my belief: Need does not exist. Once you've seen the perfection, nothing will be the same again.

 

[Bone Salvage]

As a Devout Atheist I am often troubled with this question:

Should I try to convert others or not?

My conclusion thus far has been, No. "Fearing I'd become my enemy In the instant that I preach". I don't think it would be right to do unto others what I don't wish to have done to me, and besides, I'm not the one selling the concept of an unseen, unheard, (so on and so forth) entity, so I don't really have anything to pitch.
I'm just not buying it.

It is, however, frustrating to just sit quietly and not try to educate the masses.

 

[alain]

just curious, is Amway the name of a product or what?
Also, bone salvage
Religion is often all that people have to cling to, if you remove it from them they'll either sink or become atheiest, even if atheists are right, they arent any happier then theisists, so i wouldnt risk stuffing them around
if its a sham religion that is obviously just to get money off of people, then stop them

 

[P. M. Thorne]

HEVENE: By golly, you are okay! I now think I know what you are saying, but I disagree with the way you are saying it. Let me tell you how I would say it, so that I can relate, and you tell me, if you will, if I am on the right track. Here is what I say, "Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." That is one thing. Another is: "My God shall supply all your needs according to His riches in glory."

Recently, I went through a very trying time; two surgeries in five months for the same thing, while developing other things as a result of being sick for so long, and some of my Christian friends got the idea that if I had enough faith....You've heard the story. Yet, during all that (2 years), some wonderful things were happening to me at the same time. Sometimes what we think are needs, are actually "wants." There are limitations and sometimes infirmities, but what we really "need" is to know how to deal with them, and even to use them to jump over that next hole, or climb over that next mountain. Is this kind of what you mean, or am I a mile away? PMT

 

[P. M. Thorne]

BONE SALVAGE: I used to think that I was in charge of the world, so to speak. What this is, however, is immaturity and presumption, or I might say a lack of confidence in anyone who disagrees with you to any extent. If you feel compelled to educate the world about something that is so personal, I would say that it is a strong indication that you have not yet educated yourself. Not that I think I am better than you, because I am not.

Once I was driving down a street in Texas, when I noticed the car next to me. The back door of that car opened and this woman dumped garbage in the street. I immediately rolled down my window and asked her what in the h..... was she doing. "That is against the law!" I said. My daughter told I was going to get shot. Yet, that was my one and only time to do that. But, I can tell you truthfully that sometimes I want so much for folks to stop throwing God out with their disappointment in church, their belief in evolution, or their fear of having someone think they are not smart enought to make it on their own without a God. One can believe in evolution and still be acquainted with the power of God in this whole thing having to do with living. How dare you or anyone assume that one who believes in God Almighty needs to be educated. I do not try to convert anyone. I have friends that are athiests, but if they ever made such a comment, I would be stunned. I have enough trouble with Christians trying to change me, without having athiests wanting to educate me.

I mean no harm, but I wanted you to know just you sounded to someone who knows that God is. Shame on you. ALIAN IS RIGHT! Why would you want to take away someone's faith; that is, if you could? Even the ones who live in what I think is a lot of superstition and fear, need to work things out for themselves. My job is to love them; it is up to them to change, -or not. PMT

 

[Hevene]

HEVENE: By golly, you are okay! I now think I know what you are saying, but I disagree with the way you are saying it. Let me tell you how I would say it, so that I can relate, and you tell me, if you will, if I am on the right track. Here is what I say, "Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." That is one thing. Another is: "My God shall supply all your needs according to His riches in glory."

Recently, I went through a very trying time; two surgeries in five months for the same thing, while developing other things as a result of being sick for so long, and some of my Christian friends got the idea that if I had enough faith....You've heard the story. Yet, during all that (2 years), some wonderful things were happening to me at the same time. Sometimes what we think are needs, are actually "wants." There are limitations and sometimes infirmities, but what we really "need" is to know how to deal with them, and even to use them to jump over that next hole, or climb over that next mountain. Is this kind of what you mean, or am I a mile away? PMT

Hi P. M. Thorne:
What I am saying is that all experiences we have in our life is called by us in order for us to experience the next grandest version of who we think we are. For example, the two surgeries you had, had provided you another opportunity to experience yourself as you have decided. If you wish to experience strength or courage, you can, if you wish to experience health, you can again. Without the "bad" things, we won't be able to experience the good ones. Therefore, if you see this perfection happening in your life, ie your surgeries is really something that allows you to experience an aspect of you you now wish to experience, therefore, you won't feel there is a need to eliminate it from happening in the first place, because only through that, you can experience who you are. (you get what I'm saying?) Also, there is one saying that I find really inspiring "if you don't go within, you go without." - Neale Donald Walsch. You'll find, may be already did that whenever you feel you "need" something, you already have it in you. Or think this way, if you "need" something to survive, how come you are still here? Need does not exist. If you think you need courage, you'll find it inside you already, or compassion, or love etc. etc. Need only seems real when you have forgotten you already have the things you are searching for, therefore go within, or you'll go without. And you said, to jump over the next hole, or climb that mountain, you see, again it allows you to define who you are. Do you now wish to be someone greater? If yes, then be it, and that is who you are. If not, then be that, and that is who you are.

Sometimes what we think are needs, are actually "wants."

I think it's close, but I think it's a desire. Desire and wants again are different. Wants happens when we think we don't already have the things we want. But desires are a natural feeling that calls upon change and allows us to go a step further. It's natural because life is change, therefore the desire to change is simply an expression of life.

These are my beliefs and I think it works given I desire peace and love, and peace and love is who we are ultimately. (There is no right or wrong, but what works and what doesn't - Neale Donald Walsch)

 

[Bone Salvage]

BONE SALVAGE: I used to think that I was in charge of the world, so to speak. What this is, however, is immaturity and presumption, or I might say a lack of confidence in anyone who disagrees with you to any extent. If you feel compelled to educate the world about something that is so personal, I would say that it is a strong indication that you have not yet educated yourself. Not that I think I am better than you, because I am not.

How dare you or anyone assume that one who believes in God Almighty needs to be educated. I do not try to convert anyone. I have friends that are athiests, but if they ever made such a comment, I would be stunned. I have enough trouble with Christians trying to change me, without having athiests wanting to educate me.

I mean no harm, but I wanted you to know just you sounded to someone who knows that God is. Shame on you. ALIAN IS RIGHT! Why would you want to take away someone's faith; that is, if you could? Even the ones who live in what I think is a lot of superstition and fear, need to work things out for themselves. My job is to love them; it is up to them to change, -or not. PMT

MEEEOWW!...

My word, such anger I feel being sent toward me. You know it is all well and good to talk about peoples' faith and to question why the heathen would wish to strip that away from the meek little sheep, however, sometimes they're not sheep and sometimes they're not meek. Like that time when those people went marching east and slaughtering throughout Europe because the Pope said God wanted them too. You know... The Crusades! Or maybe those Japanese pilots that slammed their planes into ships. Did you know that "Kamikaze" means "divine wind"? And don't forget the Hindu that shot Ghandi or the Mormon that planted pipe bombs, and then there's all those Muslims. I don't think I need to remind you of that, do I? I see these people who are killing doctors over "pro-life" issues and I just want to help them all by EDUCATING them about "free-thinking" and all it's benefits. But, alas, therein my problem lies. For if I awaken anyone to the truth of Plato's "Noble Lie" or any other prophets or prophecy that are being used to control the minds of the masses -- I would become my enemy (as I stated).

Yes, It is a frustrating dilemma for me... but fear not, I will try my best to overcome.

The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives.
-- Mohandas K. Gandhi

 

[alain]

if they're not very extreme in their belief, theres no harm being done
if they strong in their belief, you wont change their mind
if they extremely strong like the Crusaders and Jihadists, dont bother trying to change their mind, spend your time making sure they cant kill your family and friends

 

[Bone Salvage]

if they're not very extreme in their belief, theres no harm being done
if they strong in their belief, you wont change their mind
if they extremely strong like the Crusaders and Jihadists, dont bother trying

I agree. Which is all the more reason to make changes by focusing on the mean and not the aberrant. If there were no religion X then there could be no religion X terrorists. By eliminating the causes by which people, who are so inclined, take up arms you would also be lowering the number of those who take up arms because they would not have a cause to justify their actions.

If you want to kill a tree, you focus on the roots, not the leaves.

 

[Vienna]

I agree. If you want to kill a tree, you focus on the roots, not the leaves.

I agree. But if you can't get to the roots, you bring in the hardware and uproot the whole bloody tree. With this I am refering to Islam, though other faiths are not much better.

 

[Bone Salvage]

With this I am refering to Islam, though other faiths are not much better.

Thanks Vienna. However, I personally don't like to slam one religion over another. I am an equal opportunity faith hatin' kinda' guy.

I also seem to notice a tendency, in the west anyway, to quickly explain away any religious violence (anti-abortion, anti-gay, racism, etc) as being not Christian but "extremist". Even going so far as too not mention the religious affiliation of a "hate group". The KKK is violent, has been violent, and has a religious background. Will they be included in the "War on Terror"? Somehow I doubt it. I think a lot of Muslims would like it if we were fair to them as well and labelled their extremist as "extremists" and not Muslims.

Every lie whether "Noble" or otherwise, is a lie nonetheless.

 

[P. M. Thorne]

HEVENE:

YOU WROTE: You'll find, may be already did that whenever you feel you "need" something, you already have it in you.

I can guess that you are not talking about vital physical needs. In addition, the Source that is within us must be acknowledged before it is of value. To tell a person that what they need is within them could leave them confused or disinterested, if left without further explanation of what is meant by such a statement. I take statements literally unless otherwise indicated, except that now I understand better what you are saying, as I said, I can properly suppose that you are not talking about vital physical needs.

Your QUOTE: (There is no right or wrong, but what works and what doesn't - Neale Donald Walsch)

That sounds pretty, but does little for me personally. If you go the “wrong” way, you do not get there. If you use the “wrong” ingredients, the product will not be the one intended. We could also say that if one way does not work, take another; or, if the ingredients did not work, that, barring other factors, they were the wrong ingredients. It is six for one and a half dozen for the other. I see nothing knew here. You also quoted, “"if you don't go within, you go without." That is okay, and it does make a point…to those who would understand the subject at hand. Out of context, it would not mean much. It is a bit like, “At the edge of everything you know is something you cannot imagine.” I thought that was rather "cool," but I cannot present it as a truth, only as something to stir one’s thoughts.

The wants and desires comments did not really speak to me; nonetheless, your overall commentary contained some real thought. I think the biggest difference is the way we express our thoughts.

I leave you with a quote:

“Thus in life it is before all things useful to perfect the understanding, or reason, as far as we can, and in this alone man’s highest happiness or blessedness consists, indeed blessedness is nothing else but the contentment of spirit, which arises from the intuitive knowledge of God: now, to perfect the understanding is nothing else but to understand God, God’s attributes, and the actions which follow from the necessity of his nature. Wherefore of a man, who is led by reason, the ultimate aim or highest desire, whereby he seeks to govern all his fellows, is that whereby he is brought to the adequate conception of himself and of all things within the scope of his intelligence.” Spinoza, The Ethics

Thank you for responding and sharing your thoughts with all who care to notice. They are worth noticing. PMT

 

[P. M. Thorne]

BONE SALVAGE:


B.S. WRITES: “MEEEOWW!...My word, such anger I feel being sent toward me. You know it is all well and good to talk about peoples' faith and to question why the heathen would wish to strip that away from the meek little sheep, however, sometimes they're not sheep.”

Hmm. Not sure I know what to say here, but I will say this: There was no “meow,” and no anger, just an observation of an audacious comment, by one who would change the world to believe as he.

B.S. WRITES: “Yes, It is a frustrating dilemma for me... but fear not, I will try my best to overcome.”

I can understand and much appreciate your indignation toward the intolerance and ignorance of the extremists, but this was not what you wrote initially. Rather you seemed to be centering on those silly heads that believed in “some” God. If you are truly a student of history, you will also be aware that much of the fighting had to do with politics and power, and little to do with religion. If a king did not like a priest, he would find one that he did like, that would excuse or sanction his preferences. Besides all who believe in God are not Kings, who I am not convinced believed in God at all, nor do all who believe in God, torture, rob, plunder and rape. As for more recent events, just how many, who call themselves Christian, have blown up abortion clinics? No one I know.

You wrote: “I see these people who are killing doctors.” How many people did you see, killing how many doctors? I deplore that lucrative business, and lucrative it is, but I would not blow one up, or even try to stop them. Yet, I ask you, what about the churches that have been set on fire? Is that okay with you? In addition, all who believe in God are not Christians. Synagogues and Mosques have also been attacked. We all pick our own victims and our own heroes. There is nothing better an individual can do than to begin within.

YOUR QUOTE: “The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives.’
-- Mohandas K. Gandhi”

Notice the man said, “under the cover of.” Using religion as a cover is nothing new, is it?

No reasonable man is comfortable with outrageous behavior, and no outrageous behavior is void of unreasonable men. We, who would be reasonable, must not allow such folly to dissuade us from serving our purpose.

“Yet somewhere on the higher levels
of my accredited mortality
are gems of wisdom and learning,
of spirituality, and of truth,
--to light the dark places, as I move on.

So, I . . . encumbered with limitations,
reach for the heights, where searching minds ponder.
And I shall press on, with words assembled,
to comfort, to inspire, and to challenge!
This my contribution to all that is.”

Excerpt from the poem, Words Assembled, taken from
houghts in Motion, Poetry (Maureecie Garrison Scott)

Adios ……….PMT

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Bone Salvage: As for ridding the world of a whole religious belief in order to have peace, have the Jews and Palistians not proven that such an attempt causes only more bloodshed? PMT

 

[jcarl]

Sorry this is coming so late; finding time to devote to this is kinda tough.

In danger of dying? Dying is no bad thing; it is part of living. I do not concern myself too much with the life hereafter, but endeavor to do what I need to do and to know what I need to know now.

That's fine, but I feel it is to my advantage to prepare myself for judgement(Heb. 9:27). What goal do you accomplish by (only?) doing what needs to be done and knowing what needs to be known? Is that all that there is to life in your eyes?

Every church has a doctrine, and an individual sort of interpretation of the scriptures, and these are all “correct,” of course. Here is what I think: If we would attend more to encouraging ourselves and others to kindness and a true heart-felt love for mankind, and nature and all the wonderful things that God has left in the care of men, we would more fulfill His purpose.

What is that purpose?

All that He asks of us is for our benefit, and why? When one serves himself well,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, and I don't want to twist it around and out of context.

What I do I do because of the love in my heart, not for fear of eternity, nor for brownie buttons, if you get what I mean.

I agree 100 percent. In Exodus 32, Moses prays that God would blot him from his book(meaning revoke Moses's eternal life) so as to spare the Israelites. In like manner, Paul said in Romans 9:3:"For I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." These two men never doubted that a place of eternal reward and a place of eternal punishment. But they weren't selfishly building themselves a place in Heaven either. Instead they were focused on God and would have even gone so far, if it were possible, to forfeit their salvation for others. Now that's not possible, but the point is that they were willing to do for God because it was the right thing to do; not only did they just do it, they also did it with love, just as you speak of. I'm sure you've read 1 Cor. 13, where Paul basically says that if he hasn't love in his heart, then his deeds, however noble, are worth nothing.
Now this isn't a contradiction of what I've said earlier about rewards and such. Take the two ideas together. We will receive a reward, but if that is our only motivation, then what we do is of no worth to anybody.

As for Christ being our only door, I agree that He came to show us the way.

Is there anything beyond that? If not, then of what worth is His crucifixtion? If it's nothing deeper than a portrayal of John 15:13, then why have it?

I suggest that you check with your Elders on this. Remember “He (Christ) also descended into the lower parts of the earth.” See Eph. 4:8 & 9 Also check, Isa. 44:23; Deut. 32:22; Psa. 16:10, 86:13. Your Elders will be better able to discuss this with you, because I cannot be sure, but it is the usual belief that hell had an upper (Lazareth) and a lower (rich man)-type thing. It matters not to me, because it is rather ambiguous, but at least you are advised that this is a concept of many. So, good luck.

Ambiguous indeed. Try taken out of context. There are two different places, both under the old name of Sheol(mainly picked out from context). But once Christ died, the saved--immediately after physical death, whenever that may be--come into the prescence of Christ. The unsaved go to Hades(Sheol) where they are in torment until the Great White Throne Judgement, where they are "transferred" to the Lake of Fire.

Yes, that is written in Revelation, as are many things that many people attempt to interpret. Some believe that the book of Revelation was literally to the seven churches, which makes sense, right? Some believe the book was written all at one time; some say there were two different writings, and a few scholars say three writings. I have attended four or so classes in study of the book, listened to videos, teachers on site, viewed diagrams, flow charts, read books, and all I can do is smile, because no one knows anything, and if they think they do, they fool themselves. I am not so sure about that book, and do not trust anyone who is "sure."

I think best interpretation is where the book is divided, as indicated in ch.1 v. 19, into three parts: what has happened, what is happening(this is the letters to the Church, which are still very relevant to the modern day Church), and the things to come. This last part takes up a majority of the book. That's what makes most sense to me.

My my! I would hate to think of Jesus Christ as a “ticket” out of anywhere…to anywhere. What a narrow point of view.

John 14:6:" I am the way, the truth and the life..." That isn't exactly a wide statement; neither is the narrow way, which leads to eternal life.

Accept “it.” By “it” do you mean “the plan of salvation?”

No I mean accepting in one's heart that Christ atoned for one's sin.

You are doubtless a very nice and sincere young person, but you make Christianity sound like a religion based upon superstition and fear. Yes, I think that sums it up, -superstition and fear.

Again religion is ritual; Christianity is a relationship with God. Religion requires, makes it a neccessity that one do certain things, participate in certain ceremonies in order to be saved. These rituals might be fine and even biblical, but are not essential to one's salvation, If you became a Christian now and died before you could get baptized, you're still saved. Christianity involves a relationship with Christ that requires only one's full heart.

How have I made Christianity to be one of superstition and fear? Look at what I said about Heaven and Hell earlier concerning rewards. It's there but it isn't our only motivation. Remember God judges the heart, and knows when one is doing it out of fear or anyother reason other than true, heart-felt acceptance.

That is not what it says. I believe it says, “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation,” or very close to that. The word salvation hold no complex applications in this verse, but simply means deliverance or rescue.

But deliverance from what? Rescue requires that something is endangering us, so what is that thing in your opinion?

You are leaving yourself wide open, my friend! May I say that you will have much company if you plan not to let ignorance stop you.

I'm not going to let it stop me--I'll still try and learn. But I won't limit myself to what I can understand.

Do you have any idea how much hurt the churches have dumped on their wounded?

Do you know how much help the churches have helped and comforted its wounded?

Have you been in this world long enough to know what it is like to feel isolated, confused, alone, with no one to cry to except God? Well, many have, and then for you, and others, to come tell them they are going to hell falls so short of Christ’s teaching, it grieves my Spirit.

Do you honestly think that's my avenue of witnessing? That's dead wrong.

"There is life in the blood of the lamb who was slain; there is power, there is power in His name, there is love pouring out of the wounds that were made, pouring out, pouring over our shame."-Caedmon's Call "God Who Saves"

I have talked with a lot of good folks, who have been “doomed to hell” and I can tell you that many of them were beautiful people who were simply going through a time of confusion. There is a lot of hurt in this world and telling people they are going to Hell is not the answer.

Indeed, but telling them that there is hope in Christ is the answer.

Before you tell anyone that God loves them, tell them you love them. Before you tell anyone he is going to hell, tell them the better way that Jesus taught. There is no magic in knowing God, and you do not own him exclusively!

I do not own Him exclusively, that is why I do the whole witnessing thing.

That is one of the worst analogies I have ever heard.

I agree it has it flaws, but doesn't every analogy? Why is it a bad analogy?

Okay, I get your meaning, but let me bring something to your attention, if I may. You are approaching as though I and others live in the dark ages, have never heard of Christ, know nothing about the scriptures, and are all in a line headed for Hell.

Indeed it may be overkill, but I don't know who might read this. Someone may read this who hasn't heard this. Another possibility is that someone might actually find salvation through this. I am simply commanded to spread seed. It might mostly fall on concrete, but I don't know what God does with this message.

In the first place, you are very young, and need to learn a few things yourself. When I was fifteen a lot of people wanted me to travel, evangelistic style and preach in churches. I declined.

As would I.

Love cannot be summoned by command, rather if we are not loving, it should tell us that we are lacking, and if we are loving, then the scripture will be encouraging insomuch as we are fulfilling the message to us.

To take it a step further, it shows you how to serve God and man.

Methinks you have it backward. Remember, the law was a mirror to show us that we were flawed, or to redeem us.

I agree with this completely: Christ's death fufilled the law and justified us to a standard we could not by ourselves reach. His death did that, not the law. But

not to make us flawed

We are flawed because we have all sinned and fallen short of a sinless God. The law just affirms that.

The scriptures do tell us things that we ought to do and be, but these things must be in our hearts, or they fall on vacant ground, so to speak. I do not need to read anything to know that it is better to love than to hate. Paul said: “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse, because when they knew God. they glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful.” In reference to this verse, a wise man said, “These words clearly show that everyone can by the light of nature clearly understand the goodness and the eternal divinity of God, and can thence know and deduce what they should seek for and what avoid; wherefore the Apostle says that they are without excuse, and cannot plead ignorance, as they certainly might if it were a question of supernatural light and incarnation,” etc.

I agree with this.

Each denomination seems to hold the idea that they and they alone know how to know God; in fact, many seem to think that to know God, one must first know them and be instructed in the “right” way to approach God, be redeemed by God, and to live in the light of his presence. Nonsense!

No one should ever look at Christianity through the blinders of denominations. Nonessential things separate denominations, so what denominations say really has little to no bearing necessarily with what the Bible says. As far as approaching God, when one approaches God in John 4:24"in Spirit and in Truth" When one comes in sincerity and in humility before God, then that is the "true" approach.

You seem more than taken up with scriptures to do with judgment, rewards and punishment.

You asked

And after that happens, what then? Do you know?

I gave my beliefs. It was relevant to the conversation.

Further, you scoop everything right off the surface, so it seems. Only time and experience can cure that.

What am I missing?

Where is the love? What love? You call this love? Think about it. “You are going to hell unless you are like me.” That is what you call love. Jesus did not meet the fallen woman with, “You are going to hell.” If fact, there is no record of her asking for forgiveness before he forgave her, if my memory serves me correctly.

Go back to what I said about the witnessing. I do not simply say you guys are going to Hell if they're hurting. I show them that there a way that brings joy unspeakable.

If I sound unkind, I do not mean to, but someone needs to tell you what a hurting world this is and how much it needs to be loved. The waters and the air cry for love. Nature cries for love. Man cries for love, and Christians, who are supposed to be the children of the living God, cry for converts.

True Christians cry seek to show the world that there is a way out of the suffering that is of this world. The way out of this world's suffering is from something that is not of this world, Christ.

Get in the covering business, if you want to be like Jesus.

My mission is to show people the way to the umbrella of Christ's love and atonement.

You are exceptional for being so young, and may just be a great teacher some day,

Thank you.

but you need to grow in love, and no better time to know it. I know you mean well, and thank you for responding.

Thank you for being reasonable.

I will always answer. I apologize for taking so long.

I will do likewise; I might just take a little longer than you

 

[Nebuchadnezzaar]

I think a person can only find true religion and/or faith when it comes from within, not when it's being forced upon them.

 

[P. M. Thorne]

JCARL: That's fine, but I feel it is to my advantage to prepare myself for judgement(Heb. 9:27).

………….It seems to me that if you follow Christ’s teachings judgment would not be a problem. What you infer is much like studying what you need to -to pass a test. Whereas, if one learns their material entirely, it is likely that he will pass any test on that subject.

JCARL: What goal do you accomplish by (only?) doing what needs to be done and knowing what needs to be known? Is that all that there is to life in your eyes?

……………Excuse me. If one does what needs to be done, and learns what he needs to learn, what more is there, except superstition and fear?

JCARL: What is that purpose?

…………..I do not know what God’s purpose is for your life in full. We each have things in our lives to overcome, and goals to fulfill, but I can tell you this: We are taught to be moderate in all things, to love others as we love ourselves and to love God with all our hearts. We are taught not to condemn and not to judge. We are taught to live a life that bears fruit, (or less metaphorically, to bring results). We are taught to have an attitude of prayer, without praying for man to hear, so he will think well of us. These are some of the things we are to do. We are also to aim to have the mind of God. As God is omnipresent and omnipotent, that is a big order.

JCARL: I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, and I don't want to twist it around and out of context.

.........A great way to be respected and sufficiently wise, to put you beyond your years. It reminds me of the comment, “Let no man despise your youth.” Good job.

JCARL: Again, my comment was: All that He asks of us is for our benefit, and why? When one serves himself well, he serves others well.

.........(I) I mean we cannot give what we do not have to give. When we have peace, we know the way of peace. When we have love, we know how to give love. When we have joy, our joy begets joy.
........(II) When we have knowledge, we can, with growth and discipline, learn how to own it. When we own it, it is truth to us. Truth begets wisdom. (There is no wisdom without truth.) When we grow in wisdom and truth, the behavior that follows will reflect that truth, and what better way to deal with man than to let him know that we are real in thought, intent, and behavior?

JCARL: We will receive a reward, but if that is our only motivation, then what we do is of no worth to anybody.

……………..True. Not even ourselves!

JCARL: Is there anything beyond that? If not, then of what worth is His crucifixtion? If it's nothing deeper than a portrayal of John 15:13, then why have it?

……………I say Christ has shown us the way, and you ask if there is nothing beyond that. Beyond what? And how did that passage from the gospel of John become a matter of question? You have lost me…………….??

JCARL: Ambiguous indeed. Try taken out of context. There are two different places, both under the old name of Sheol(mainly picked out from context). But once Christ died, the saved--immediately after physical death, whenever that may be--come into the prescence of Christ. The unsaved go to Hades(Sheol) where they are in torment until the Great White Throne Judgement, where they are "transferred" to the Lake of Fire.

………..There are several takes on that, thus my reason for referring you to your elders. It matters not to me how you divide it as how you see it changes nothing.

JCARL: I think best interpretation is where the book is divided, as indicated in ch.1 v. 19, into three parts: what has happened, what is happening(this is the letters to the Church, which are still very relevant to the modern day Church), and the things to come. This last part takes up a majority of the book. That's what makes most sense to me.

……………….That is as reasonable as one can be with such a complicated and controversial book. I think going with that theory is as good a way as any to interpret the book.

John 14:6:" I am the way, the truth and the life..." That isn't exactly a wide statement; neither is the narrow way, which leads to eternal life.

………………?? What has that to do with calling Jesus a “ticket?” A ticket must be purchased by someone. No one purchased Jesus; he was the purchaser.

JCARL: No I mean accepting in one's heart that Christ atoned for one's sin.
……………Is that not—according to your own beliefs—salvation?

JCARL: Again religion is ritual; Christianity is a relationship with God. Religion requires, makes it a neccessity that one do certain things, participate in certain ceremonies in order to be saved. These rituals might be fine and even biblical, but are not essential to one's salvation, If you became a Christian now and died before you could get baptized, you're still saved. Christianity involves a relationship with Christ that requires only one's full heart.

……………You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Rest easier, religion was defined before you entered this planet in a human body. Do not be afraid of the word. That kind of double talk makes you sound superstitious, like, “Oh do not call it religion; but then again it is like religion, but it is not.” What?

JCARL: How have I made Christianity to be one of superstition and fear? Look at what I said about Heaven and Hell earlier concerning rewards. It's there but it isn't our only motivation. Remember God judges the heart, and knows when one is doing it out of fear or anyother reason other than true, heart-felt acceptance.

……………Huh oh! I did not say that you had made Christianity anything. Christianity was plagued with superstition and fear before I ever walked on this planet in a human body. Also, why are you telling me to remember that God judges the heart, and knows when one is doing whatever out of fear or for another reason other than heart-felt acceptance. I have no fear of losing God’s grace. Further, I do not favor the term “heart-felt acceptance.” Just what is that? I prefer, doing what I do because I love to do it. I love to do it, I am thinking this is because, I have an educated conscience; I am intuitive (own the knowledge that motivates me), and have a genuine love for God and his creation, including man.

JCARL: But deliverance from what? Rescue requires that something is endangering us, so what is that thing in your opinion?

……………….The dangers of this world, of this life, the destructive, altering influences. The greed for fame and fortune, and other paralyzing propaganda that would keep us from our purpose. The truth set us free. Free of what? Free of things that would deceive us, because they only seem true.
JCARL: I'm not going to let it stop me--I'll still try and learn. But I won't limit myself to what I can understand.

……………..Woe! I knew what you were meaning. I was just saying to be careful how you word things. I cannot stress enough how important it is to not leave yourself wide open like that, especially on this forum, okay?

JCARL: Do you know how much help the churches have helped and comforted its wounded?

………………No, I do not! You tell me! Here is what I have personally witnessed, and have also heard from more folks than I could begin to mention: Churches will take in a wretch who has beat his wife/******** her husband, strangled the cat, kicked the kids, over indulged in drink and drugs, and has never done much of anything worthwhile in his/her life. Then every meeting, one member or another of his/her family will testify of their former pusillanimous attitudes, lascivious ways, and former specious existence. Everyone will amen, and accept these folks into the fold, where their former atrocities become their banner. However, let one of their own err, and God help them!
…………………..I have lived a long time, and have seen this play out over and over and over, until it made want to spit up. Instead of leaving their former lives, such redeemed bunglers take it with them right into the pews, where the converters rejoice, and listen again and again to how wicked they once were.
…………………Now, back to any steady, otherwise reliable member that erred. …Hmm, please go to another church in the future. You are spotted/soiled with your sins now and have brought/are bringing reproach on the church; so go away. We are all pure here. Oh yeah, because no one dares admit a fault lest it is never laid to rest. Let us not only fool one another, but let us see if we cannot fool God as well. Maybe this happens, not in your church. I hope not, but I can tell you: The saying that “The Christian Army is the only army that kills its wounded,” is not far off.

JCARL: Do you honestly think that's my avenue of witnessing? That's dead wrong.

………….I am sincerely happy to know this. Truly, I am.

JCARL: Indeed, but telling them that there is hope in Christ is the answer.

………………..Telling them you love them is the answer, my friend. They will figure the other out. Do you think other people are so stupid that they have not heard about Christ? With all the doorknockers and in-your-face born-agains, and all the prejudice toward Christianity folks have gathered, your words would be as pearls before swine. However, if you tell them you love them, that is the gospel of Christ. Further, it is only with a great deal of difficulty that one opposed to Christians and all they seemingly stand for, can harden his heart against unfeigned love.

JCARL: I do not own Him exclusively, that is why I do the whole witnessing thing.

………………You just do not get it, do you? You have God in your pocket, ready to give Him to anyone who will follow your church’s directions, right? Your witness to mankind must be the way you live, the way you love, and the way you accept them. Most people who are living a messy life are not trying to defy God. Actually, most people believe in God. When one is confused and in pain, do not tell them where the medicine is, show them, by showing them your love.

JCARL: I agree it has it flaws, but doesn't every analogy? Why is it a bad analogy?

…………This was the ticket thing, and I addressed it above.

JCARL: To take it a step further, it shows you how to serve God and man.

……………Loving is serving God and man, dear heart.

JCARL: I agree with this completely: Christ's death fufilled the law and justified us to a standard we could not by ourselves reach. His death did that, not the law. But not to make us flawed
We are flawed because we have all sinned and fallen short of a sinless God. The law just affirms that.

…………… May I AGAIN quote: “Beloved now are we the sons of God…” Surely, you are familiar with, “just as if we had never sinned.” Paul says that we still sin but that sin cannot have dominion over us. In any event, we are no longer in a state of “fallen.” We are God’s children, but we are flawed; we do sin, but sin is now nothing but doing things which do not serve us well. I really believe it to be a fault in much of Christendom to not see themselves in the new creation, but to constantly beat themselves for being human. That is nonsense. To press toward the mark, as Paul says, but until we are taken from this world, there will be problems. It is, therefore, not our task to avoid them, but to deal with them, and grow in the grace wherein we stand. Do you agree?

JCARL: I agree with this.

…………..Yipee! The words in italics are Apostle Paul’s; the words in golden yellow are Spinoza’s, after he had offered that quote from Paul. Some day, you may like Spinoza. He is mostly ignored, and definitely misunderstood by Christians.

JCARL: No one should ever look at Christianity through the blinders of denominations. Nonessential things separate denominations, so what denominations say really has little to no bearing necessarily with what the Bible says. As far as approaching God, when one approaches God in John 4:24"in Spirit and in Truth" When one comes in sincerity and in humility before God, then that is the "true" approach.

That is beautiful, JCarl.

JCARL: You asked

……………..Did I? Perhaps. I will let you have that one!

JCARL: Go back to what I said about the witnessing. I do not simply say you guys are going to Hell if they're hurting. I show them that there a way that brings joy unspeakable.

……………When do you tell them they are going to hell?

JCARL: True Christians cry seek to show the world that there is a way out of the suffering that is of this world. The way out of this world's suffering is from something that is not of this world, Christ.

…………….I would have said something similar at your age, but years of living and observing tell me that “Christians,” true or not, need to shut up. They are doing more harm that good, except possibly within the churches, and even there they fall asleep. It seems the only thing that will keep their attention for long, and I am generalizing here, is to feel superior. It is, I think, this feeling of “knowing” that make them smile all the time as though they have not sense enough to do anything else.

>>>>>>>>I may be angering your young heart, and I apologize if I am, but you are an extraordinary young man. My son left this world some time ago, but if he were here, I would be speaking to him the same way I am with you. This is also the same way I speak to my peers, and to my philosophy devotees, whom I believe will hear me. It is not that I know so much, but I know this: that joy you feel, JCarl, and that blessed assurance, that closeness to God, and that feeling of peace, must never be attributed to the church that you attend, or to your doctrinal concepts. Church is but a building. Thoughts are many. All that good stuff I just mentioned is in you, and we know that all good things come from God; therefore, God is in you. He is above all, through all, and in us all. That is so cool! You will not find that assurance anywhere in the external world. Do not bother to look. Here, I am not saying that God is not in the external world, because He and His creation is everywhere, but that –in your heart—is, and can always be yours! In addition, we do not find God; we do not visit God, God is. We say that he is omnipresent, and then speak as though we have hidden HIM somewhere until we go through a little ceremony, before we give him to our next convert. If we really believe that God lives and that we live, because of Him, we need to watch what we say, because the message we give can be very confusing and sometimes sound moronic. This does not glorify God.

.........We sometimes fail to give God, OR people, credit. God can speak to anyone’s heart, without us. Yes, he can. Conversely, people can discover that God is their true Source, without us. This is not to say that you or anyone else should not talk with people, but be sure that your heart is directing you to do so. This is all I am trying to say. And, perhaps you are, but way you quote those Hell and damnation verses really got my attention.

JCARL: My mission is to show people the way to the umbrella of Christ's love and atonement.

How do you “show one the way?” I thought that was a job for the Holy Spirit.

JCARL: Thank you for being reasonable.

…………………..I seldom get dogmatic about anything. My stepfather actually put a loud speaker on the outside of our house once, so that he could let folks know how he felt about various things. I could have died. Once, on my lunch hour, I ran across him, carrying a big sign about his political preferences. I was with business associates, and wanted to crawl under a car. Once, in a church we were visiting, the minister was going at it, and my stepfather commenced shaking his head. That was bad enough, then he said aloud, “No! No! That is not true.” Right then he and the other preacher began to debate, and then my mom and I were summoned to follow him. We left the church, and I was so confused, because for some reason he had really taken me by surprise, and I had not real clue as to what their squabble was about. Therefore, I tend to conclude that it had to do with prophecy. I was nine or ten, and prophecy was still a bit of a mystery to me.

………………FYI, THIS IS A BIT STRANGE. I thought I had your post answered, on Microsoft word. But, when I pulled up your post, you had added to what you had written, so I had to copy the addition, and work on it. Now, I am going back to post this, and hope I am through. You pulled a fast one on me, I think.

pmt